Running Odyssey and non-odyssey locomotives in a lashup - is it possible?

It works all the way until it doesn't. I'm sorry to say we get these questions all the time and the answer is always some dog and pony show argument and what if without specifics of the exact engines involved.

It's a simple rule- set them on the track NOT connected to each other. Test them at various speeds and throttle settings. If they are not matched well in speed, then they are going to fight each other when coupled. In saying that, this is where also having your track power source with a good set of meters (specifically ammeter) comes into play as well. Know what each loco draws normally, what the combined set runs unloaded and not fighting each other, and then, while running watch that meter for excessive current. This advice is even true for a matched pair or set of locomotives running in a consist, because you need to know some idea of normal current draw VS excessive current draw, when/if they ever are fighting each other.

In general, it's usually pretty difficult to get dissimilar engines to run together for TMCC models.  Most Legacy (but not all) will lashup pretty easily with another Legacy model.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

In general, it's usually pretty difficult to get dissimilar engines to run together for TMCC models.  Most Legacy (but not all) will lashup pretty easily with another Legacy model.

So for instance, it might be hard or impossible to get say an Atlas, Weaver and Lionel to lashup with one another if they're all TMCC models (but not Legacy)? Not even mentioning MTH, because I have no desire to get a new system (DCS).

Well, if you have TMCC models with the same gear ratio and wheel size, assuming they have similar electronics, they'll usually run together.  However, running an Odyssey I TMCC and one without Odyssey will normally not work out well.

Many Atlas and Weaver models were equipped with TAS EOB, those may run together assuming the wheel size and gear ratios match.  The closer the match between the two TMCC engines, the better the chances they will run together.

The reason I'm being so vague is this topic lends itself to uncertainty since there are so many variables with TMCC.

With Lionel Legacy factory engines, they've all been designed to run at the same speed for a given speed step, so the speed profile matches for the most part.

I've even done some MTH PS/1 diesel upgrades to Legacy electronics and been able to MU them with a Legacy engine, obviously the gear ratio was pretty close between the two engines.  I have an MTH DD40AX that was PS/1 that I upgraded to Legacy, I MU'ed it with a Lionel Legacy factory DD35A, those two run great together.  I don't expect that from all the Legacy upgrades from MTH, that was a nice surprise.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, if you have TMCC models with the same gear ratio and wheel size, assuming they have similar electronics, they'll usually run together.  However, running an Odyssey I TMCC and one without Odyssey will normally not work out well.

That being said, what about Odyssey I and Odyssey II (Legacy)? Do those play nice together, or again, the same problems as noted above?

@Paul Khoury posted:

That being said, what about Odyssey I and Odyssey II (Legacy)? Do those play nice together, or again, the same problems as noted above?

I can tell you I have 2 W&LE Mallets, one is odyssey and one is legacy and they might run together one out of ten times but most of the time it's a disaster. I mention these two locos as they are identical except for the control. I've tried every combination of odyssey on or off and yes, the Legacy one is ran in TMCC mode when trying.

@Paul Khoury posted:

That being said, what about Odyssey I and Odyssey II (Legacy)? Do those play nice together, or again, the same problems as noted above?

They will most certainly usually have significant issues running together.  The speed curves between the two versions are nowhere close.

Really, Legacy with Legacy is normally good, TMCC with Legacy is very spotty, and even many TMCC engines won't play well with different TMCC models.

Ya just need a lot of rope to make that "lashup" work. 

Geez how I hate that silly term...LASHUP.

@Rich Melvin posted:

Geez how I hate that silly term...LASHUP.

You just have to convince Lionel and MTH to stop using it and we're all set.

It took a second look, but I saw what you did with the rope.  Made me chuckle audibly, if not lol...

@Rich Melvin posted:

Ya just need a lot of rope to make that "lashup" work. 

Geez how I hate that silly term...LASHUP.

LOL to the string. But what can I say? Even friends who work for the railroad use that silly term (or DPUs).

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

They will most certainly usually have significant issues running together.  The speed curves between the two versions are nowhere close.

Really, Legacy with Legacy is normally good, TMCC with Legacy is very spotty, and even many TMCC engines won't play well with different TMCC models.

Lovely. I guess it's onwards to try and find another affordable Legacy locomotive, then. The worst part about it? I'll probably be using my Amtrak passenger engines to run freight trains, in that case. It's not prototypical, but I'm still having fun.

@Paul Khoury posted:

It's not prototypical, but I'm still having fun.

Mission accomplished, that's what it's all about!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mission accomplished, that's what it's all about!

My middle school band teacher (big Lionel collector, and a lot of us former students have kept in touch over the past 20-30+ years) made me finally realize it - it's just a toy, do what you want, enjoy yourself. I almost think of it was what we run at the museum - running totally mismatched consists. Why? Because we can. And it's fun!

Still bummed about the Odyssey incompatibilites, but now I know, it is what it is. :-/

Thought I'd try to build a train, with locomotives running separately, and indeed, Odyssey 1 is a lot different from Odyssey 2. Used an Ody-1 RS-11, and while it started up slowly, it gained speed a lot quicker than my two Legacy F40PH and P42 locos. I do have to wonder if the upcoming CAB-3 will make different technologies play nicer together, or if that's just a pipe dream.

@Paul Khoury posted:

I do have to wonder if the upcoming CAB-3 will make different technologies play nicer together, or if that's just a pipe dream.

The CAB-3 will not make those engines be able to run together.  The base only sends commands to the engines.  It can't change the built in speed curve of the locomotive.  That is a function of the hardware and the gear ratio of the locomotive.  The new base is designed to allow users to run Lion Chief engines using the CAB-3/CAB-2/CAB-1L.  The idea is to allow users to run all their equipment with a single remote.  It also removes the need for the external power supply for LCS components as it has PDI ports built into the base.

As far as steam engines go, run them like the real thing.  One control per engine with different ID's.  Done it plenty of times.  If you have a friend with you, takes communication and cooperation.  Just like the real thing.  Some diesels didn't MU, but very few road units (if any) didn't have MU.

@Paul Khoury posted:

I do have to wonder if the upcoming CAB-3 will make different technologies play nicer together, or if that's just a pipe dream.

Pipe dream!

@NHVRYGray posted:

As far as steam engines go, run them like the real thing.  One control per engine with different ID's.  Done it plenty of times.  If you have a friend with you, takes communication and cooperation.  Just like the real thing.  Some diesels didn't MU, but very few road units (if any) didn't have MU.

Coupled together, it would be very difficult to see if you were speed matched.  Unless you're disabling the cruise on all of them, this is not really a great idea.  I don't view it as a particularly good idea anyway.  Running models this way is actually nothing like the "real thing".

Former Amtrak F40PH were used to pull freight trains for a while.

Andrew

@falconservice posted:

Former Amtrak F40PH were used to pull freight trains for a while.

Andrew

Makes sense, given it's basically a GP30 with different gearing and different body. I suppose the P42 is roughly equivalent to a Dash-9 as well, since it had a 16-FDL.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, if you have TMCC models with the same gear ratio and wheel size, assuming they have similar electronics, they'll usually run together.  However, running an Odyssey I TMCC and one without Odyssey will normally not work out well.

Many Atlas and Weaver models were equipped with TAS EOB, those may run together assuming the wheel size and gear ratios match.  The closer the match between the two TMCC engines, the better the chances they will run together.

The reason I'm being so vague is this topic lends itself to uncertainty since there are so many variables with TMCC.

With Lionel Legacy factory engines, they've all been designed to run at the same speed for a given speed step, so the speed profile matches for the most part.

I've even done some MTH PS/1 diesel upgrades to Legacy electronics and been able to MU them with a Legacy engine, obviously the gear ratio was pretty close between the two engines.  I have an MTH DD40AX that was PS/1 that I upgraded to Legacy, I MU'ed it with a Lionel Legacy factory DD35A, those two run great together.  I don't expect that from all the Legacy upgrades from MTH, that was a nice surprise.

Going back to this answer...

Do you see any issues if I were to run say my RS-11 MoPac (TMCC with Odyssey) with a TMCC GP that also has Odyssey? Oddly, Lionel's site doesn't show Odyssey for this locomotive, but the manual sure does. It seems Lionel doesn't have many TMCC Alcos, so I might try and find a similar era GP or even an Alco switcher to pair with it. Mostly a lashup, because I feel it's more realistic, and in the future, when I have long-ish trains.

@Paul Khoury posted:

Going back to this answer...

Do you see any issues if I were to run say my RS-11 MoPac (TMCC with Odyssey) with a TMCC GP that also has Odyssey? Oddly, Lionel's site doesn't show Odyssey for this locomotive, but the manual sure does. It seems Lionel doesn't have many TMCC Alcos, so I might try and find a similar era GP or even an Alco switcher to pair with it. Mostly a lashup, because I feel it's more realistic, and in the future, when I have long-ish trains.

My rule of thumb when I make a MU (lashup), TMCC or Legacy, is to build the train without them coupled together leaving maybe an inch or 2 between the engines.  Build the train and run them around the layout.  If they track fairly well they are coupled and ran as a train.

There is no real chart that will tell you what will and will not work.  I would try to stay in within the same model.  I have a TMCC LM SD80 and a TMCC SD90, very similar both with original Odyssey, I run together and they run perfectly in a train.  Again if you want to be sure build the train and leave them apart and see how they track with each other.

Marty has the right answer, testing with TMCC stuff is by far the most reliable way to see if they'll work.

@Paul Khoury posted:

Thought I'd try to build a train, with locomotives running separately, and indeed, Odyssey 1 is a lot different from Odyssey 2. Used an Ody-1 RS-11, and while it started up slowly, it gained speed a lot quicker than my two Legacy F40PH and P42 locos. I do have to wonder if the upcoming CAB-3 will make different technologies play nicer together, or if that's just a pipe dream.

How about a Legacy switcher vs a Legacy road engine?   However, I believe Legacy actually compensates for the differences when you MU these, I should test that...   There are two engines running with ID #99 from a stop.  The SW7 is configured as a diesel switcher, the ES44AC is obviously a plain Legacy diesel.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Marty has the right answer, testing with TMCC stuff is by far the most reliable way to see if they'll work.

How about a Legacy switcher vs a Legacy road engine?   However, I believe Legacy actually compensates for the differences when you MU these, I should test that...   There are two engines running with ID #99 from a stop.  The SW7 is configured as a diesel switcher, the ES44AC is obviously a plain Legacy diesel.

From Page 62 of the Legacy manual... My note in red.

Note: SUPPORT FOR LEGACY SWITCHER
If a switcher is in a lashup with other LEGACY engines the speed controls will be reprogrammed so
the switcher runs the same speed as the LEGACY engines. This allows LEGACY switchers and road
engines to run in a lashup.

When lashing LEGACY engines with different top speeds, the SPEED LIMIT is automatically
determined by the slowest engine in the consist. The engine speed is determined by the MAXSPEED
value that resides in the engine module (I suspect the sensor track as well). The engines in the consist must be loaded with a module to
utilize this feature.  ***

The switcher, when configured as a road engine, will continue to operate as a road engine until
either engine info is cleared or the engine is removed from the train.

*** So I guess if you do a manual entry without a module or sensor track this may not be valid @Dave Olson ?

I was pretty sure that was the case Marty, I seem to remember many years ago trying it.  I haven't had the occasion to MU the two different types, but a couple of those memory cells were still alive.

Interesting comment about only loading them with a module, that flies in the face of the statement by Lionel that you don't need modules and can do any required configuration programming using the CAB2 or the LSU program.

@MartyE posted:

*** So I guess if you do a manual entry without a module or sensor track this may not be valid @Dave Olson ?

Correct. I'd suggest setting a speed limit at that point. I don't like running a switcher at road speeds though. Gets those mechanisms screaming.

The last point in that info on that page is that a switcher configured as a road engine in a MU (Rich ) will continue to operate at road engine speed steps until the TR is cleared out.

Where does the ERR cruise commander fit into this puzzle? Thinking about upgrading my Odyssey Mallet if that will help it play nice with my Legacy Mallet.

@David K. Simpson posted:

Where does the ERR cruise commander fit into this puzzle? Thinking about upgrading my Odyssey Mallet if that will help it play nice with my Legacy Mallet.

The short answer is, it doesn't fit into the picture.  It's speed curve at 100 steps is nothing like Legacy.  Also, you'd have to run it at 32 speed steps to MU with Legacy as you have to drop to the lowest common denominator, that being TMCC with an MU with Legacy.

I'd be very surprised if you get the Cruise Commander MU'ed with a non-ERR locomotive satisfactorily.

Thank you.