S Gaugian interviews with Lionel and MTH on S gauge products

Look forward to it.  

Brendan

HAs anyone gotten their magazine yet?

I went to subscribe a while back but found I had to mail in a check. I never got around to it...

Just read part of the interview with  Lionel on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AmericanFlyerTrains/

 

You asked some good questions.  I think the responses from Ryan really seem to emphasize their feeling that the S market is almost too small to bother with.  I get that they need ROI, but if it's that small, get out and let someone else do it.

Re the new woodside reefers - "Conversations with several AF fans at York were a big factor in the decision"    Who'd they talk to?  Some guys that never heard of MTH?  What a waste of tooling budget.  Could've tooled something from the last 50 years instead.

Brendan

I received mine on  Monday, I suppose it takes loner for the magazine to get all the way to Southern California. Bill, I thought you did a fine job with the interviews even if the answers from Lionel are not what we wanted to hear. It sounds like there will be a Legacy Berkshire, that will be fantastic. I feel Lionel is too pessimistic on the subject of plastic shells on steam engines. If they make a popular wheel arrangement and one not currently available sales will be good. After all, the Legacy diesels all have plastic shells. It was surprising to read that MTH  will likely bring more new DCS engine types to market in the next several years than Lionel will release new Legacy types. There is something too conservative in Lionel's market analysis.

Thanks Brendan & Mark..... My feeling is the wood sided cars took a lot less tooling than a complete new car.  The comment about S being a smaller market than HOn3 was telling.  It told me that it now is understandable why we get so little in new tooling money from Lionel.

How about his comments on a Thomas in S??  I got that question from requests from this forum.  Also the SD40 question came from here. 

AmFlyer posted:

 It was surprising to read that MTH  will likely bring more new DCS engine types to market in the next several years than Lionel will release new Legacy types. There is something too conservative in Lionel's market analysis.

Bear in mind the "more new DCS engine types" will very likely be the variations of the SW switcher, F7 and 2-8-0 previously produced by SHS.  I wouldn't expect any newly tooled locomotive for some time.

Rusty

After reading the Lionel portion on Facebook I hate to say I told you so... This new leadership team views S in a whole different light than their predecessors. I got drawn in about 5-6 years ago because it seemed that Lionel wanted to grow their presence in S, not just cater to the existing modelers.

I still firmly believe that Lionel could pull modelers from both O and HO into S if they wanted to. I was a convert from 3 Rail myself. Here were scale trains that were still a good size, but fit into a tighter space that came with Lionel Legacy (still my favorite over DCS or DCC) right out of the box. Best of all - 2 Rail track!

So the way I read it we will get more of the same and perhaps an SD40 and scale Berk in the next 5 years or so. Some will be happy, but that isn't much to keep the flame going for me.

I'm still skeptical though that there isn't something going on behind the scenes that they aren't telling us. The major cost is in the tooling right? So why aren't we seeing reruns in new paint schemes of Challengers, Y3s, U33s, SD70aces, and ES44s? MTH makes a living on that approach in 3R O. It doesn't make any sense to me.

I haven't read the MTH portion yet, but I'm sure that Rusty is correct. Just reissued SHS tooling with PS 3.0. The problem for me is that I'm fairly sure that MTH has done away with the modular interface that SHS had that allowed you to swap control and sound options. MTH, like Lionel, doesn't always get the sounds correct. One of my favorite models is the SHS SW1 which had a 6cyl prime mover. The only accurate recording of this to my knowledge has been done in DCC by ESU LokSound. So I either wait for MTH to make a model that I will need to rip the electronics out of and replace with a hardwired DCC solution, or I keep scouring the used market for them to pop up. Neither of those sound palatable to me.

I was so excited to change over to S 6 years ago, but now I feel like I'm watching it die before my very eyes.

But that's just my perspective.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

How about his comments on a Thomas in S??  I got that question from requests from this forum.  Also the SD40 question came from here. 

An SD40 is certainly a good teaser but somewhat non-commital.  As for Thomas, I didn't really understand the licensing "issue".  Multiple companies make Thomas in multiple scales; I can't believe the Thomas licensor would veto S.  Unless that is just an excuse.

 

Brendan 

MTH sounded kind of gloomy on the prospects of undecorated cars being produced. Even using shrinking paint and decal sales as evidence that the craftsman modeler is disappearing.  Other than that, MTH only committed to possibly producing more of the same in possibly different paint schemes.

I don't think MTH was gloomy on unpainted cars.  Their answer is "Not going to make them." 

I was disappointed they had no real plans for developing passenger cars.  Not being a SHS guy, did they have tooling for passenger cars that MTH could utilize?

I only hope they come through with the engines they discussed in the interview quickly so they can grab more market share in S.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I don't think MTH was gloomy on unpainted cars.  Their answer is "Not going to make them." 

I was disappointed they had no real plans for developing passenger cars.  Not being a SHS guy, did they have tooling for passenger cars that MTH could utilize?

I only hope they come through with the engines they discussed in the interview quickly so they can grab more market share in S.

SHS didn't have any passenger cars.

I'm not surprised that MTH isn't offering undecorated/unpainted cars.  They don't offer them in O, HO or G.  It's not part of their business model.  I'm not sure of what percentage of SHS stuff was undecorated, but I don't think it was very large.

I've got several projects lined up for painting, some have been sitting around for years.  I'm either occupied by other things or don't have the zeal to paint everything like I did 30 years ago. Maybe after retirement...

Besides, nowadays the companies can do a much better job that I can.

There's still a lot of catching up for MTH to do with the old SHS tooling, besides locomotives:  PS2 3-bay covered hopper, standard flat car, bulkhead flat car, 34' open twin bay hoppers (ribbed, offset, panel, composite,) covered twin bay ribbed hopper, single sheath USRA boxcar, double sheath USRA boxcar, stock car, extended vision caboose. 

Plus, there were three things on the drawing board at SHS: E7A, Bethlehem Steel 55 ton "fishbelly" twin hopper, bay window caboose.  The amount of progress made on these three is unknown.

Rusty

Bill

As usual the questions and article were good. 

Lionel:

I am impressed with Ryan's honesty in explaining his answers. It does not seem to me that Lionel has been all that open in the past about the reasoning behind their decisions, or give a explanation to why the answer is "no" when a question is asked.   It seems Scale modern freight is just not on the horizon.  I guess in one hand you have to give some credit for the Sified O27 auto racks.  It's an attempt to compromise I guess. But I for one could not get past the fine detail of an ES44 next to that toyish looking car.  But I do hope the people that bought them like them.  I would agree, the legacy berk seems like it IS coming.  Odd though, sip this be the first model Lionel has done of a Locomotive that they produced a "Gilbert-esk" version AND a scale version?  Will the Flyer Chief Berks take from potential sales of a Legacy model that will likely cost 1K? Ryan also seemed as optimistic as ever (without actually confirming) an SD40 project.  And...due to my departure from S, the lack of an SD40 being my biggest gripe, there will likely be an S gauge SD40 soon...cause that's how life works. 

Johnny - maybe L does not have the challenger, U33, exc, tooling anymore   Maybe it's gone like the Mikado and Pacific tooling. 

MTH:

This can really be summed up with "yea we sucked getting the F3s out, but we know what we are doing now and here comes the rest of the stuff we bought from SHS".  That really seemed it.  Non committal answers to everything else (starter sets, new tooling, new track pieces, exc...). The only real positive I took from it was Andy seemed very confidant that the delays are are thing if the past.  Product will generally be delivered after it's announced in a reasonable time frame. 

Overall, it would seem S is much as I left it.  But it's still fun to coke back and visit.

Now back to playing with this BLI "rolling thunder" SD40 in HO 

Ben

After reading the Lionel portion on FB, I can see that there will be very little to interest me in the near future.  I've cooled to the idea of a Legacy Berk.   Warmed over O27 and traditional style Flyer do not attract me.

Plus, given Lionel's record, Ryan's statements will be good only to the next management change anyway, as there appears to be no continuity of thought for the Flyer product line over the years.

As to MTH, I'll have to grab a copy of the Gaugian to see what MTH has to say, but presently, the only former SHS item I have any interest in would be a PS2 3-bay covered hopper.

Fortunately, American Models still has a couple of things I'd like to get.

Rusty

Good article. L tried to dangle some carrots, but the big line is that they don't look to S as a growing market and they sure as heck aren't going to grow it to entice folks from their O gauge market. They are looking for a "sure thing" on anything they make. I suppose this is what the shareholders want, but it's no way to expand the envelope. MTH is also very reserved, although they do admit that the development time in the past has been far too long. What I noticed is no excitement by either manufacturer's representative to the hobby itself. "if it worked in the past, we'll MAYBE do it again." And the train sets, just a way to get rid of left-overs! Maybe the market is dying. . . .

My copy of "S Gaugian" arrived yesterday.  

Both interviewees seemed a bit cagey in their responses.  However, this is not a surprise.  Neither wants to telegraph their marketing plans, nor set themselves up for public bad-mouthing by someone  not thrilled with the product plans.  As in, "My favorite <insert a specific item> was not produced, therfore I will make it my task to make them 'pay'."  Such childish behavior seems to get more coverage than deserved.  

While I would like to see contemporary rolling stock, there are specialized manufacturers in the marketplace that have unique items.  Also, there is scratch-building - something I intend to explore further.  

CheerS,  

Dave McBrayer

Would you guys want the SD40 to be Legacy or FlyerChief?  Considering the FlyerChief could be about $400 and the Legacy $650.

Like SD70 and ES44, Legacy with DCC compatibility and scale wheel option.

Absolutely Legacy. I would buy several roadnames. $650 sounds like a good deal for a nicely detailed Legacy engine. 

I have a FlyerChief Northern. It is a nice engine and has a place in the hobby, just not with me. Unlikely I would buy a FlyerChief SD40. 

I would want the SD-40 to be a Legacy engine. DCC would mean a lot to me. It should be a premium locomotive. The ability to run them in a consist with others would mean multiple engine purchases from me and others.

My preference for a SD40 is for Legacy. Legacy because it includes DCC capability. Availability of scale wheels as a user-installed option would be important to me.  

Dave McBrayer  

NASG 

 

This SD40 is a long time coming...Legacy. Do it up like the new SD60 in O gauge. FlyerChief version and Legacy versions available.  

Ben 

I won't buy any Lionel S gauge engine until they start to make rolling stock appropriate for the scale engines they have already made.  I bought eleven of the Sd70ACe and ES44AC engines, I bought the wide radius Fastrack, I bought six command switches, and I even bought six of the hoppers that people complained about.  I don't want to think about the $K I have spent with them.  I bought all that with the expectation that Lionel would keep moving forward in S gauge and produce the rolling stock to go with the engines.  Unlikely to happen so the engines sit in display cases and the track and hoppers are boxed in the attic.  Lionel can make whatever engines they want.  I am not buying them until I start seeing the rolling stock.

I would vote for Legacy as the others above have: AC, DC, DCC compatibility; scale wheels an option; and the ability to form a consist with other Legacy products. The later SD70ACe locomotives and all of the ES44AC versions ran beautifully, although the ES44AC engines could have benefited from the options on the SD70ACes to fix the pilot in place and provide a bracket for Kadee couplers.

SD40 - I would prefer Legacy/DCC but if all they offered was FlyerChief, I could always convert.  Maybe BTO with option of FC or Legacy.  I'm not holding my breath.  We'll probably see a FC Baldwin before anything else.

Brendan

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Would you guys want the SD40 to be Legacy or FlyerChief?  Considering the FlyerChief could be about $400 and the Legacy $650.

Does this mean an SD40 would be a bona-fied possibility or are we getting all ginned up about nothing again?

Sorry, but ever since Lionel pulled the rug out from under the mechanical reefers, I'm skeptical of any further new Flyer scale-oriented product development.

Rusty

I would consider an SD40 w/Flyer Chief control (or even just BlueTooth), but if it comes equipped with Legacy, it is totally out of the question, because the last thing I want is another new, overpriced electronic control system. I would not be interested in Legacy even if it came with the controller for the quoted $650 price!

Bill in FtL

Guys, if you read the interview article, Ryan said," The SD40or SD40-2 is most likely the next new locomotive tooled in S. If S guys have options on a preference or the features they would most like to see in these models please send them along." 

That is why I posed the question hoping he would get some idea of what was wanted.  Note he gave no price points.  What I did was guess what they might be for Legacy and FlyerChief.

And it is important to note that price points for O products are not necessarily the same as for S products because of the smaller production runs. Now some may say that's because we're a smaller market, but I would suggest we are smaller market because we don't have a full product line. I'm not into "modern" railroading, so the diesel discussion doesn't really touch me, but if I were, I know I'd be very frustrated to have nice modern diesels with basically nothing appropriate for them to pull. Finding out the RTR sets was basically a way to get rid of overstock, and not a market strategy to get new folks into the scale is really telling. Sorry Big L, I appreciate your candor on this, but it reveals that you don't really see S as a way to increase market share. I guess we should be grateful you at least see us as another income source.

Two Rails...You are right.  If they don't make profit on S they will quit making it.  That's business. If you read the articles from MTH and Lionel there is little hope that they will send much for tooling modern rolling stock.  You have to look to others for that.  

An SD40 can't really be considered much of a modern diesel anyway.  Am I right? 

Yep...The SD40 was made from 1966 to 1972.  They quit making them 45 years ago.  The information doesn't list how many are in service now.  Can't be many and those have been rebuilt as SD40-2.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

An SD40 can't really be considered much of a modern diesel anyway.  Am I right? 

Perhaps, but SD40's are more modern than a lot of other choices. As for the Flyonel U-boats & SD70's already produced, if they don't want to do era matching rolling stock because they are so convinced that the more modern stuff won't sell, why are they bothering with the locomotives?

Bill in FtL

Bill, Yes, the SD 45 isn't a modern diesel as such, so it's a good compromise as both "vintage" rolling stock as well as "Modern" can be justified with it. So, that would seem to be positive reasons for producing it (although it's still to new for my tastes)

Bill Nielsen posted:

I would consider an SD40 w/Flyer Chief control (or even just BlueTooth), but if it comes equipped with Legacy, it is totally out of the question, because the last thing I want is another new, overpriced electronic control system. I would not be interested in Legacy even if it came with the controller for the quoted $650 price!

Bill in FtL

Bill, you are the target demographic for flyerchief.  You can get command control lite without investing in a command control system be it DCC, Legacy, or DCS.  

Brendan

traindavid posted:

And it is important to note that price points for O products are not necessarily the same as for S products because of the smaller production runs. Now some may say that's because we're a smaller market, but I would suggest we are smaller market because we don't have a full product line.

That's the ages old "chicken and egg" thing and nobody wants to make a chicken omelette...

Rusty

Hi Bill,

I got my first copy of S Gaugian at Hennings (their last copy). 

My thoughts:  1)  Lionel isn't or won't be doing much in S (Bummer)

          2) MTH will ALLEGEDLY become a force is S - if they can get stuff out.

          3)  I know Andy/Mike from Charlie Bussinger, who was an early adopter of MTH, and      wasn't impressed with their attitude, but what choice do we have?  Don't say American Models, as they have a very limited line of Engines without DCC, although I like their cars and track.

          4) Some of our club members (NPS) purchased the MTH Diesels and are not experiencing the DCC control problems like our Legacy users.  Apparently MTH has a switch to select which system the engine is supposed to run on.

Francine posted:

           3)  I know Andy/Mike from Charlie Bussinger, who was an early adopter of MTH, and      wasn't impressed with their attitude, but what choice do we have?  Don't say American Models, as they have a very limited line of Engines without DCC, although I like their cars and track.

          4) Some of our club members (NPS) purchased the MTH Diesels and are not experiencing the DCC control problems like our Legacy users.  Apparently MTH has a switch to select which system the engine is supposed to run on.

Right, there's a switch to select DCS/DCC behind the rear door.  The door assembly is held on by a magnet.

The F3's will operate on DCC with the switch in the DCS position, but commands are hit and miss. (Found this out the hard way... )

**Edit**  Added AM Comments:

Well, American Models IS the only other choice.  True, AM doesn't offer loco's with the high-tech electronic razzmatazz, but where else are you going to get the likes of the U25B, RS-11, GG1, Train Master, or E8?

It's going to be a VERY long time (if at all) before you see something like the above from Lionel or MTH.  Although, I'd be willing to bet a FlyerChief U33C will eventually show up at Lionel.

Rusty

I vote for a Legacy SD40-2 (or SD40). DCC support, Scale wheels and coupler options, and correct sounds. Personally, I would like to see fixed pilots and full length handrails too.

I'm not holding my breath though.

Ben- Exactly what I was wondering...