Santa Fe 2333 or 2343

I'm just trying to find everything I can about his collection. 

Im the Kibri lady too..still looking for more info on the station too.

I'm working from memory here Fran and someone may have better info but from what I remember, the frame was common to many of the  early F3s.

The 2333 came both as the Santa Fe and the NYC was the first issue of F3s in 1948 (I think). In 1950, Lionel added Magne-Traction and changed the numbers to 2343 (Santa Fe) and 2344 (NYC). There are other subtle differences but these are the obvious.

"The shell on one of my Passed Father-in-laws Santa Fe does not match the numbers on the bottom of the car. The shell has the markings of a2343 but the bottom says 2333-20. "

"The one whose shell matches the body is the 2333 which is the numbers on the bottom! What's going on here. Can anyone help?" 

That is correct. Most of the early ones have that number on the bottom as the same frame was used. Your number baords will have the type number and there are differences in the GM decal on the back doors. Different productions used a different looking decal.

http://www.postwarlionel.com/c...in/postwar?ITEM=2333

Rob

Hold a steel item to the wheels. If the wheels are magnetized it would be likely that it's a 2343. The 2333 did not have magne-traction.

The 2333-20 number is the part number for the frame of the engine. That same part number may have been used in several different engines. Generally, the numbers in the clear numberboards on either side of the headlight are the catalog number for the engine.

An easy way to see if the chassis is for a 2343 or 2333 would be to stick a small screwdriver on one of the wheels. A 2343 would have magnetic wheels whereas a 2333 would not.

Hope this helps,

J White

J. White,

I did check to see if there was any magnetraction on either of the chassis and neither have it. Does this mean that both are 2333? Or does it even matter at all?

Sometimes the magnetism weakens, so it doesn't rule out that it's a 2343. But that's a long shot...

J White

Hi:  Two things to look for are: 1)  the 2333 brushplates were a fibre board with brushholder tubes and coil spring loaded brushes with a formed metal band/strap  to mount it to the motor field; the 2343 used a phenolic/plastic brushplate with straight wire brush springs. These were used up until the horizontal motor was discontinued;

  2) the backs of the wheels of the 2333 were recessed with small holed axle bushings, since magnatraction was not developed yet for use; in the 2343, the backs of the wheels were retooled to be flat surfaced since the magnatraction axle was thicker and the axle bushing were also larger. The 2333 wheels would have slipped into the axle bushing area and the wheel flanges would have rubbed against the  wheel block casting. Even with the flat surfaced wheels this can happen, so the axle bushings are set to extend a short distance outward of the casting allowing the wheels to not rub the casting. Over time and with continuous running in only one configuration, the magnatraction, or even other axle bushing can wear or be hammered into the housing area causing the wheels to rub and cause drag on the drivetrain. Hope this helps.  Dennis M.

Aside from Magnetraction, the easiest way to tell between a 2333 and 2343 is to look at the number board, that is the small rectangle on the side of the nose of the loco. The item number is shown there, if they haven't been changed over the year. Either loco is desirable, the '43s pull better, but the '33s run better, no metal in the works from Magnetraction, and they coast better when the power is cut. Hope this helps!

Train Doctor, I guesswhat I'm trying to figure out here on these two loco is if someone had taken a 2333 chassis and put a 2343 shell on it. I do see another slight difference, the 2333 has a larger GM decal on the side. It has white lettering with red background. The 2343 has a smaller decal with black background and gold toned GM on it. Is this also a tell? 

Also, the 2333 is much heavier than the 2343

You cannot make an assumption by the GM decal because the 2333 used 3 different versions of it during the first run. Some the red/white GM decal, some had the black /white decal which was created for the 2334 NYC units but applied to the 2333 by mistake.The decal started out on the rear panel and later moved to the door. There are 5 types of the 2333 by itself. As has been mentioned already, the 2333 DOES NOT have magnatraction, the 2343 does. Thats how you know what chassis you have at a quick check. The other way is the brush plate types.

Rob

Well, I tried the magnetraction trick. Nothing stuck to either one. I tried pins, screws, screwdriver and no magnetism on any wheels, trucks or anything around those places. So looks like I have a set of 2333's and a dummy unit. Geese who knew there was this much to learn about trains and such that goes with them. 

My head is spinning!

Please forgive my ignorance but Rob, what is a brush plate and where is it located exactly? 

The brush plate is at the back of each motor and has 2 brushes in it, along with 3 wires atttached. The 2333 has two tubes sticking out of a fiber flat plate that look like the outside is threaded and pretty much is open other than that. The 2344, and probably the 2343, has a black phenolic resin full coverage plate behind the motor that has the brushes inclosed. I don't have a 2343 here, but I do have the 2333 and 2344.

A greenberg 7th edition book would show you everything you want to know.

THE TRUE TEST???  The 2333's are painted on a BLACK SHELL!!!  This would include either the SF or NYC Diesels...but the NUMBERBOARDS are a quick identifier!!!  These diesels are readily identified, as I have never seen(in 40 years) a 2333 that has no black showing thru the Santa Fe SILVER or the NYC GRAY!!!  The BLACK SHELLS were discontinued because of the COMMON "paint-flaking"...the paint simply did not adhere well to the BLACK PLASTIC!!!

I would guess it's a 2333 with a replacement shell. Maybe something happened to the original and a Lionel service station replaced it. Ron is right about the inside of the shell being black. Also just put a piece of track to the wheels and you can tell if it's a 2343 or not. Don

LIONEL never changed the part number(2333-20) on the chassis...the 2333, 2343, 2353 SF's and the corresponding NYC's(2333, 2344, and 2354 retained the 2333-20).   Ron B.