Santa Fe F7 Questions

I have several ABBA F units in both configurations and I have found no difference whether the power units were together or separated. 

 

Good luck in your hunt.

Hello James,

I too ordered the GGD El Capitan cars and I too was considering purchasing a set of Atlas F7s.  BUT, I have been fighting with my powered Atlas Union Pacific F3s for a few weeks and at this point doubt I will buy any more Atlas engines.  I have 3 powered units-ABA- and they simply will not function as a TRain.  I have activated all the proper settings and tried using the Nudge mode, all to no avail.  

 

I am going to wait for Legacy F units.  The Atlas F units are stunning to look and they run and sound great individually, but I just can't get them to run as a TRain. I don't mean to rain on your parade, maybe others will report having better luck with building TRains with the cruise commander 4.1 engines.  Just wanted to share my experiences.

The 3rd Rail units run fabulous as a MU consist. My FP7's which are an ABA set, with both A units powered, are the best running engines I own.

You can still reserve the 3rd Rail units until the end of the month.

Where the powered units are in the consist makes little difference, but if you're planning on running a combined el cap/super chief, get the 37 set with the 3rd powered unit. GGD cars are heavy. 

I was going to add the same thing. 2 powered units will be fine for 8-12 cars, but if you intend to run a combine train as I do, with 18-20+ cars, you will need that 3rd powered unit. The 37LABC is what I would do. I have the Super Chief set, and those cars are heavy. Pulling that big of train with only 2 powered units is going to eat up traction tires on level track. I ordered an ABBA set from 3rd Rail, all 4 units powered, and with 22 GGD cars, I'm gonna need that power.

No problems here with my AtlasO powered F nits running together. They run nice and smooth. 

 

T4TT, make sure all motors are working. That could be the reason your having problems. 

 

Doug,

 

I have heard nothing but positives about 3rd Rail Loco's.  I have seen the ads for the F7's, but I was not sure about the Reservation window.  I am interested in the 3R F7's, but the downside for me is $$$$'s.  I have already committed a large portion of my 2015 Budget to the El Cap Hi-Levels.  At $600 ea. the 3R F Unit's are quite pricey, and more than 2 Powered Units would crush my 2015 Budget.  I am still working on allocating funds to begin the construction of our next layout.  If I commit to the 3rd Rail F's, I would probably have to put off construction till 2016.

 

 

I like the idea of a combined EL Cap/ SC, however, that would entail actually owning both trains.  I did not order the GGD Super Chief, due to funds being consumed on buying our 1st House.  Though I have a very loving and supportive wife, she would have killed me, if I had spent money on the Super Chief cars, and not towards buying our house.  Back to trains; I could definitely swing say two Powered A's and two Dummy B's, but 3rd Rail isn't offering Dummy units.  So the 3R F Unit's are not a viable option, as it relates to buying a complete set of ABBA's.

 

My other option would be to wait for Legacy F7's, but Lionel hasn't released Warbonnet F7's since 2007, and those were TMCC.  I would have no problem buying the TMCC F7's, but finding them is another issue altogether.

In that case I would go for the Atlas #45LABC. 2 pwrd 2 dmy... but if AT ALL POSSIBLE get that extra powered unit and go with #37LABC. The El Cap cars will be even heavier than the Super Chief cars. If down the road you are able to pick up more SF cars, you will have plenty of power to pull a bigger train.

I pulled my 14 car GGD Daylight set with the 3rd Rail FP7s, 2 pwrd A units and the dummy B, and that was about the limit on level track. Once they got moving they were ok, but getting some wheel slip in the beginning.... and that will stretch the traction tires out. If there would of been any kind of grade, I would of had to take a few cars off.

Legacy all the way. Have wonderful Atlas, MTH and 3rd Rail, but, I keep coming back to my favored engines overall; Legacy/Vision Line all the way!

JohnJr

Unfortunately at this point in time, thats just not an option for F7 Santa Fe warbonnets

A lot depends on the ability to do a consist with TMCC control. The Legacy remote is a bit different than old TMCC Cab1 remotes when applying the codes for a consist. Though with two A units, or even an A and B, units that have the same physical characteristics building the consist should not be a problem. There were adjustments with older TMCC units for momentum that seems to affect consist operations. 

 

You should check the specs. on the Dummy units.  You want to be sure that, even though, a dummy, (with out wheel drive motors), the lighting and electro-couplers work.  When you create a consist: the Front and Rear headlight of the consist function, all other lights are off.  Also the Front and Rear coupler of the consist function, all others are turned off.   The functions available on the dummy units would determine how you configure your consist.  Hopefully it all works well. 

This is an old Cab1/Command Base consist working well together. All (5) units are powered.  The Atlas GP7, lead, is EOB speed control, the (4) Atlas SW9s are standard TMCC.  Click on the triangle to access the video.

 

 

Here is a link to the Complete Guide to Command Control, the manual/instructions that came with a Cab1/Command Base set. Again this is old. The advanced operating techniques section is page 22 to page 27 You may also want to review Consist (Lash-up) operation with Legacy Control.  Unfortunately I'm not Legacy literate other than it does appear to operate TMCC.  Best wishes with your project. 

Mike CT

Additional note:  Even if you were to purchase Sunset Third Rail units, you would still be dealing with old technology TMCC. IMO.

Stick with this:

 

A- Powered (45L)

B- Dummy  (45A)

B- Dummy  (45B)

A- Powered (45C)

 

That is how they were delivered from EMD and Santa Fe made every effort to keep the together while they were in service.

 

Also with this configuration the two powered units contain the sound and it will be more evenly distributed as the lash-up passes.  

 

BTW, I have the full 12-car GGD El Capitan set on order and will probably use the above units for 50% of the time on the El Cap.  The other 50% will be Alco PA's either A-B-A or A-B-B-A.

Here is a cut & Paste copy of a post I made on an earlier thread about the Atlas F-units started by Mr Muffin:

 

No doubt about it.  Late last year I was able to score 4 Atlas-O GP60's that were still in the original factory sealed shipping cartons.  So, basically they are brand new, never been run.  Three of these units are powered and easily pull my reefer block of 32 MTH Santa Fe reefers.

 

In total these six motors could pull the bumpers off a dump truck.  Not to worry, I can also pull the above train with a single unit.  Some will say the 3 powered units is overkill and I will not argue, but the sound produced when they go makes it ALL worth it.

 

Yes, the GP60's are a bit longer than F7's and therefore are a few ounces heavier, but I see no problem being able to handle GDD's El Cap with two powered A's.

 

I'm in for the A-B-B-A lash-up of 45L, 45A, 45B & 45C.  That is how Santa Fe ran them and who am I to disagree?

 

If a single powered unit can pull 32 MTH reefers w/o straining, I am very confident that two powered units can handle a 12-car El Capitan.

 

If not, then I would consider buying a third powered (B-unit) for my lash-up.

This is for T4TT and anybody else that is having a hard time building a "train" using TMCC lash-up.

 

Follow the instructions in the link below.  If you still have problems configuring a "lash-up" aka "train" with your Atlas engines, then send them in for repair.  

 

I have shared this with link several people in the past and can report a 100% success ratio.

 

http://www.coilcouplers.com/tmc/tmclash.html

 

 

GOOD LUCK.

Thanks SantaFeJim!

I don't want to jack this thread.  I appreciate the link you posted.  I am using my CAB2 to build my F unit consist. The display really simplifies building a consist, another reason I love Legacy.  I used the ERR Cruise Commander Manual v4.1 to program each engine for Cruise, Large Motor, and 100 speed steps.  Then I attempted to use the Nudge feature to speed up the slower engine...didn't work.  Then I used the nudge feature to slow the faster engine....didn't work.  So I don't know what I am doing wrong.  The engines will not match speeds and fight one another when running.  

 

I was very interested in the thread Mr. Muffin started about the Atlas F7s and especially interested and impressed with Jerry Kimble's posts. 

 

I am over a barrel because I am confident these Atlas F units will look stunning.  I too considered the 45L-45A-45B-45C to be the ideal consist for my needs (2 powered cab units).  BUT, given the troubles my UP F3s have given me I am gun shy.  

 

Everyone seems to report that Atlas engines run well, I am hoping I will have the same opinion.  I have talked to Bill Seratelli from Atlas.  Hopefully he will help me sort this out, because I would like to purchase the same consist you are buying.

 

thanks again for your post and to the OP I apologize if I am jacking your thread, maybe this info will benefit you

However, the 3rd Rail units use ERR/Cruise which is 100 times better than the Atlas EOB when running a multi unit consist, especially with a Cab1

Understandable when discussing a model of a high-end steam locomotive. However, a simple EMD "F" type unit which only has a roots blown EMD diesel engine sound, plus a horn & bell, and all the "latest technology" in the world isn't going to make it sound, nor operate, any better than the ERR Cruise Commander, in my opinion. I would much rather have a spectacularly accurate and detailed model!

Just an FYI for weight and drawbar pull:

 

32 MTH reefers aprox 32lbs based on NMRA weight standards

 

My 10 car GGD Super Chief set is 35+ lbs

 

12 car GGD El Capitan set.... no one knows yet but it will be significantly higher than 35 lbs. My guess is 50+ lbs, and that's being conservative

Just my opinion but, I believe you are confusing the actual weight of the cars (dead weight, if you will), with the "rolling resistance", or drawbar pull weight. The pull on the last coupler of your locomotive consist with no way in the world equal 30 to 50+ pounds. 

 

Just like in real railroading, the locomotive consist doesn't actually "pull 19,000 tons" of drawbar pull when starting a 19,000 ton coal train. The drawbar pull for that last coupler on the diesel unit consist might be around only 400,000 POUNDS.

You gatta love this stuff  Well, "TIM",  my power is more power than your power.  If you get stuck, there's a (5) engine consist pictured above that will pull more stuff than you can imagine, and them SW9s don't have speed control, one way or another.  That's a 3.8% grade. 

 Mike CT. 

LOL   Must be a slow cold snow day with nothing to do.   

Laidoffsick,

 

Thanks for the numbers.  Can you point me to the source.  Or better yet, can you tell me the weight of 15 MTH 18" passenger cars?

 

Thanks.

Who is "TIM"?

AtlasO today uses ERR cruise not EOB. 

Reference is to the character (Tim Taylor) sit-com Home Improvement     "More power Tim"   

Well I am just trying to explain to them how heavy these cars are as far as how much weight the engines will be pulling. It was in reference to Jim's post above about 1 unit pulling 32 MTH reefers.

 

All I know is on the Cajon Sub, anything over 6900 tons.... call the helpers

He didn't say which ones he had.... are they older EOB or newer ERR? I currently have both.

Sure can..... I took my cars off the shelf and weighed them If you really want to know how much 15- 18" passenger cars weigh, I can weigh those too.

Does Legacy require entering a zero for single digits?

Such as "07" rather than just "7" with TMCC?

Jim,

 

15 MTH 18" streamlined passenger cars are right about 30 lbs, give or take a few oz depending on whether or not you have a full length dome in there. That car is 11 oz heavier than the standard cars. Yes I put mine on the scale

 

Much lighter than the GGD cars.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it both the 3rd Rail F7s and the Atlas F7 will have the same ERR Cruise Commander and Railsounds boards.  All of the electronic components inside both manufacturers are identical.  Right?  

That is correct.

That pretty well covers it, as there is no other supplier of Lionel Licensed TMCC Control products on the market.

So then, it is logical to assume that both Atlas and 3rd rail engines will run identically?  The only real difference between the two will be the aesthetic differences. 

Noted difference is the drive design.  Atlas is the classic (2) vertical can, China Drive. Sunset uses a single motor, (Cannon), horizontal drive. Both drive systems operate from the same Lionel licensed variable drive system.  IMO

Absolutely not!!!!

 

The Atlas O units will have the standard twin-motor "China Drive" system, i.e. one motor for each powered truck.

 

The Sunset/3rd Rail models will have a single large DC Can motor mounted in the center of the unit, driving a quiet, cog-belt driven shaft, that comes out of the fuel tank and into each truck, via. shafts, universal joints and gears. The Sunset/3rd Rail diesel models operate EXTREMELY smooth, and SLOW if so desired.

It appears, comparing price, one is $100 more than the other.  HW didn't mention that the horizontal drive allows for more interior cab detail. 

One large motor is superior to two smaller motors driving individual trucks?  Based on the schematic in the latest Lionel catalog, Lionel uses the same "China Drive" set up employed by Atlas? 

 

Then 3rd Rail puts the speaker inside the body, since the drive shaft is in the fuel tank?  How does that effect, if at all, the sound quality?

 

Looks like 3rd rail is not offering any dummy B units, right?

 

thanks for the info, very interesting

Looks like 3rd rail is not offering any dummy B units, right?

 

RIGHT.

 

That has a BIG impact on the $$$ of an ABBA lash-up. 

 

Atlas-O pre-order ABBA with 2 powered A's $1,184 from Mr Muffin includes FREE shipping.

The 3rd Rail ABBA is $2,400.   My estimate for shipping from 3rd Rail about $40.00.

 

I am sure that the Sunset 3rd Rail units are excellent both in appearence and performance, but I just can not justify the cost.  If you can, more POWER to you.

 

 

 

I can't justify the cost either, but sometimes you just gotta say WTF!

 

$2k for a VL BB, or $2400 for 4 diesels? Not really that much different