Scale models

https://proto48.org/

When it comes to plastic, the very best are Atlas and 3rd Rail.... Atlas produces some very nice plastic freight and passenger cars.... 3rd Ral makes the best plastic engines.... However their output is very limited... 

Please do not overlook K-Line freight cars made toward the end of their existence.  The Lionel milk reefer series introduced in 1997 were spot on.   3rd Rail/Sunset six dome tank cars and chlorine tank flat cars are scale.  Pecos River cars(freight and passenger) are scale.  Weaver 40' and 50' boxcars are quite nice.  GGD 54' reefers are scale size.  Any missing details may be easily added. John in Lansing, ILL

A few examples below...

The Atlas CZ project was exceptional and I would love to see more passenger trains from Atlas... The F7 is an upgraded 3rd Rail RG set.

MTH comes to mind, however their releases require TONS of work to be able to considered decent.... And even then they leave much to be desired... Two MTH u it's below...

Atlas!

3rd Rail CB&Q E9 and E5

My impression is that there’s been a growing interest in modern freight equipment in the last few years... Atlas’s releases fly off the shelf... but they rarely put out a new model.

I have looked at all the models available,  I think Atlas would be the best (not including P&D and Desplaines), MTH is close but the other i feel are more toy like, ( not that there is a problem with that) but i am looking for products to be available to what the HO market is getting. I will be going the P&D route probably for my first build. I like that the basic dimensions are super close on the body leaving only minor body modifications and then adding the details you want.. SANTIAGOP23 I like the detail work you are doing (as others also) to getting the look of the prototype. The ones who model steam seem to have the market on stuff but I could be wrong. Thank everyone for answering back for sure.. 

This is what i do in HO and want to try in O.. 

The difference in gauge between P48 and O Scale is .08 inch. You will not find a lot of stuff built (RTR) to P48. Either can be detailed to the nth degree, and there are brass pieces out there that are built detailed to the max. You will likely end up hand laying track if you go P48. You would likely be best served going to some 2 rail shows and talking to different people. P48 is a minority of a minority scale. Remember the difference is .08

Simon

Here is a link to a video that has BOTH p48 and O layouts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAjrZ_t6w28

Simon Winter posted:

You would likely be best served going to some 2 rail shows and talking to different people.

That would be good advise to any and all.

You are asking the right questions.  Producing highly detailed Proto 48 models is risky business because of the limited market.  Do not expect a proliferation of such models at any price.

Your decision will wind up being a personal one - how much work and investment you wish to make in a hobby.

bob2 posted:

You are asking the right questions.  Producing highly detailed Proto 48 models is risky business because of the limited market.  Do not expect a proliferation of such models at any price.

Your decision will wind up being a personal one - how much work and investment you wish to make in a hobby.

Ok understand P48 is not the norm from what you are saying. But is there still a need for standard O modern models in todays market like the ones producted in HO? I am sure they could be modified to P48 is the individual wanted.. does this sound right?

I would say that sounds right, however an announcement would have to be made to gauge interest... it’s very difficult to say what would sell... 3rd Rail announces the sd40s and reservations were lousy... 

And that is what i am wondering, i know a company will not want to invest in all that needs to be done without having people actually wanting the model. This is a quest i am taking on my own to see how much interest there might be for a modern model that is as close to scale as a brass model. 

You're not going to be happy with Weaver, MTH or Lionel's SD40-2 as the trucks sit too far inboard (this is a major spotting feature and what makes the Dash 2 so unique).  I would recommend an Atlas or Lionel SD40 as it's more accurate.  Not sure why MTH would spend money on new tooling for a SD45, but not spend the money on EMDs best Locomotive - the SD40-2

You can try to locate an old Central Locomotive Works SD40-2 and super detail it.

SPSF posted:

You're not going to be happy with Weaver, MTH or Lionel's SD40-2 as the trucks sit too far inboard (this is a major spotting feature and what makes the Dash 2 so unique).  I would recommend an Atlas or Lionel SD40 as it's more accurate.  Not sure why MTH would spend money on new tooling for a SD45, but not spend the money on EMDs best Locomotive - the SD40-2

You can try to locate an old Central Locomotive Works SD40-2 and super detail it.

 

I remember an article in MR when i was young that had a picture of a Mopac SD40-2 that was super detailed using the Central Locomotive Works model. Thanks for the reminder..

This guy might be able to satisfy you, but you better get your loot out:

http://midwesternmodelworks.com/

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

This guy might be able to satisfy you, but you better get your loot out:

http://midwesternmodelworks.com/

Simon

Though this is super impressive, i would like the models in plastic so the individual can add their own details if they liked. Not everyone can drop $2000 on a super nice model, including me. Thanks for the link.. 

You'll never find in O scale 2 rail what is available in the smaller scales like HO. Unfortunately, O scale 2-rail from importers like Atlas and MTH only exists because of the 3-rail market.

And there is your answer.  But do join us - plan to do your own work.

If there were any profit at all in what you propose, somebody would already be doing it.  There have been locomotives done in Proto-48, but as far as I can tell, none below the 2 grand point.

My personal opinion - and most will disagree - is when treads get below .150 width you are asking for operational problems.  I run .172 tread width, and model in 17/64 scale to get the proper track width.

Antlor posted:

Simon Winter posted:

This guy might be able to satisfy you, but you better get your loot out:

http://midwesternmodelworks.com/

Simon

Though this is super impressive, i would like the models in plastic so the individual can add their own details if they liked. Not everyone can drop $2000 on a super nice model, including me. Thanks for the link.. 

If you are a modern era modeler, you will be disappointed in accurate O scale models Anthony.

Even for steam and transition era modelers O scale lags HO (and N) in accurate RTR scale plastic models.

One can't blame the manufacturers.   Sunset/3rd Rail (similar to Kato in fidelity) annouced the SD40-2 and received abysmal reservations.   It wasn't Midwest Model Works fidelity nor was it MMW price.  It would have been much like Kato has offered in N and HO but had relatively few takers.   Much of the current line of EMD and GE diesels (ACEs and ES's)  have been done in O scale but are mostly 3 rail and certainly not up to the level of fidelity you are used to in HO.

O scale, which traditionally required more space and more money for mainline modeling,  was (is) geared to an older crowd (like me) who favored steam and first generation diesels.   Somewhat different from N and HO which certainly attracts steam era but has a much larger following of modern equipment.

P:48 is a completely different subject.   There are few RTR locomotives and even fewer steam though there are an increasing supply of conversion wheelsets for diesels.  There is also plans to offer P:48 wheelsets for current run Sunset/3rd Rail diesels which will open up a huge market.    Again, that helps if you want F units or SD7/9's or Kraus-Maffeis but not so good for SD70s.  

And there is code 148 and 125 P:48 flex track but no ready to lay "snap track" style turnouts or crossings.  A double edge sword, since we have no "snap track" turnouts but we do have a company that offers a line of turnout components that allow you to build ones that have all of the pieces of the real ones (accurate tie plates and fishplates, stock rail braces, manganese frog inserts, etc). 

"Scale modeling" can certainly be done in O scale or P:48 but it is a much larger undertaking if you are used to things like HO scale diesels with Cannon cabs and tons of road-specific add-on brass details.  In general they just don't exist in O due to a lack of interest.

This will change as more younger folks come in and start wanting SD70s, centerbeam cars and ethanol tankers instead of E and F units.

All of this is just my opinion but I try and be objective about my observations.  FWIW I model the 1940's PRR and it's just as difficult to model it accurately in O/P:48 as if I were modeling  today's UP/BNSF/NS. 

Oh, if you search a bit on here you can find a fellow from France that was disappointed in the lack of modern diesels in O scale... so he decided to draw up 3d drawings of a modern EMD SD and have it slowly and methodically printed in shapeways as to build an accurate O scale model.  

Nice thread, I enjoyed reading all the advice. If I ever decide to get into scale 2 rail O scale modeling I know who to ask for advice  

Thank you 

Erik C Lindgren posted:

Nice thread, I enjoyed reading all the advice. If I ever decide to get into scale 2 rail O scale modeling I know who to ask for advice  

Thank you 

I don't know about these guys:

https://myp48.wordpress.com/20...e-and-three-of-lees/

Or this one: 

https://myp48.wordpress.com/?s...en&submit=Search

Rob M, don't forget Signature Switch Co. and OscaleTurnouts both offer ready to lay P:48 turnouts and crossings in a few common frog  numbers and rail weights. They come in various levels of detail and the basic ones are about the same cost as current Atlas O scale turnouts.

Anthony, to offset the general lack of good loco models, I do feel there are some things O scale and P:48 can do better than smaller scales, such as the sense of mass and momentum, plus sound thanks to improving DCC decoders and speaker design.

I worked around the lack of "highly-detailed yet affordable" modern Diesels on Oscale by modelling a freelance modern shortline in O scale 2R. Not ideal but at least I have more flexibility to run older locos and it's somewhat affordable.      

My rolling stock is mainly Atlas O with some Weaver and a few MTH and even K-Line cars.

To give an idea, below is a clip of 5 of my plastic locos with metal chassis and brass trucks, DCC and sound: 2 x P&D F Units and 3 x Red Caboose GP9s. Not all that accurate compared to the best modern HO plastic locos, but they run well and sound OK I think.

The CP and CN ones will be patched out for my shortline eventually. To the left of this scene is a 36" radius hidden curve which they and all my freight cars up to 72ft CenteBeams negotiate with ease. 

I hope you will consider taking the plunge into O scale 2R or P:48! 

These days even the lower quality dual-motor drives in Atlas locos that were designed for 3 rail can be made to run fairly well thanks to the latest decoders such as Loksound 5:

I do like O Scale 2-Rail. It’s the main form of O Gauge here in U.K. and looks very fine, although not cheap! 

I went into 3-Rail because I wanted US outline and O27 track is cheap. 

Simon Winter posted:

The difference in gauge between P48 and O Scale is .008 inch. You will not find a lot of stuff built (RTR) to P48. Either can be detailed to the nth degree, and there are brass pieces out there that are built detailed to the max. You will likely end up hand laying track if you go P48. You would likely be best served going to some 2 rail shows and talking to different people. P48 is a minority of a minority scale. Remember the difference is .008

Simon

Here is a link to a video that has BOTH p48 and O layouts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAjrZ_t6w28

the difference in gauge between O gauge and Proto 48 is not .008 inches.

prototype track gauge is 56.5 inches divided by 48 = 1.177 inches.

O gauge is 1.25 inches. so the difference in gauge is .073 inches.

Anthony,

In my opinion, there has been no better time than now to get into O Scale no matter whether you choose Proto48 or not. And here is why I think or hold this opinion. The hobby of model railroading in general could be on the verge of a renaissance in the next 2 years. Due to the fact that we know availability in O Scale quality kits and models is lacking, but the rise of the tools available for creating the models and component parts with everything from laser cut objects to 3D Printing will help both experience models, beginners or even persons like yourself considering a change of gauges. The price of the hardware like a printer has been drastically reduced and most all the software tools are free open source. The time to learn how to use these tools is also reduced compared to 5 or 10 years ago because most of the time you can pull a YouTube video and to see how to do something without having to take a comprehensive course. The other advantage we have today is the ability to collaborate on-line with other modelers to get things done. I am a heavy user of Zoom Video Conferencing for such things which by the way also makes it easier for folks that want to volunteer a little time to work putting on a convention.

The kit of the future will be an electronic model railroad kit that comes on a thumb drive or a download zip or tar file. Imagine if you can, 6 Western Maryland modelers that want to produce a WM hopper car in O Scale from scratch. All 6 share in the work and sketch up the components in FreeCAD. Within a week they have the first rough draft ready to print and evaluate including all the details required for the car. They make their work open source to share with the modelers of all scales who can then modify for improvements or tailor it for another road. Regardless of the gauge you happen to be in you can scale the WM model up or down in size. For example, a G Scale set of files can be sliced down to O Scale by approximately 71%. And oh by the way, you don't have time to sketch the parts, I took an iPhone photo of some etched brass brake rigging parts, imported the photo into Inkscape to generate the svg for the FreeCAD, extruded the parts and printed them. The process went very quickly so I could get back to the bench and use those parts on a refurbished piece.

https://www.prusaprinters.org/...-rail-fec-hopper-car

Regarding cost, I have a different thought process about that topic. Even if you spend a large sum on a ready to run brass import, if you have any sticker shock at all most likely because of limited disposable income perhaps or your preference is to purchase many other things for the layout within your budget, your event horizon or thinking has to be long term. For many of us in the hobby once you are in, you are a lifer for sure. How many years will you keep and cherish that model? If you were a railroad company, standard accounting procedures would have you depreciate the equipment. But as it so happens, precision built models last and appreciate over a lifetime. If you spend $1500 today and you have that model in your collection on the layout for 35 years, you could say amortization was $42/$43 per year of enjoyment. On the other hand you can find rather nice 1970's vintage O Scale engines at a reasonable price and upgrade it to Power On Board with sound, the whole works.

Your options are many so I would not hesitate to get into the O Scale 2 rail. Your creativity will not be limited.

Cheers!

John Wubbel

I kind of agree - we have never had this many options, and this kind of quality.  And I can see the difference in track gauge, so I think Proto-48 is a service to the hobby.   I cannot wait to see brass 3d printed locomotive frames.

JG, those are spectacular telephone photos.  My old Nikon couldn't do that.  And your models and trackwork are beautiful.  They should convince the OP that his dreams are possible.

David Eisinger posted:

Simon Winter posted:

The difference in gauge between P48 and O Scale is .008 inch. You will not find a lot of stuff built (RTR) to P48. Either can be detailed to the nth degree, and there are brass pieces out there that are built detailed to the max. You will likely end up hand laying track if you go P48. You would likely be best served going to some 2 rail shows and talking to different people. P48 is a minority of a minority scale. Remember the difference is .008

Simon

Here is a link to a video that has BOTH p48 and O layouts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAjrZ_t6w28

the difference in gauge between O gauge and Proto 48 is not .008 inches.

prototype track gauge is 56.5 inches divided by 48 = 1.177 inches.

O gauge is 1.25 inches. so the difference in gauge is .073 inches.

Bumped an extra 0.  Never claimed I was a typist. Still a piddling bit of difference considering the difficulties involved in correcting it.

Simon

bob2 posted:

I kind of agree - we have never had this many options, and this kind of quality.  And I can see the difference in track gauge, so I think Proto-48 is a service to the hobby.   I cannot wait to see brass 3d printed locomotive frames.

JG, those are spectacular telephone photos.  My old Nikon couldn't do that.  And your models and trackwork are beautiful.  They should convince the OP that his dreams are possible.

Thanks Bob and ditto! That means a lot coming from you.

John

jgtrh62 posted:

Hi Anthony and welcome!

IMO there is actually a lot more potential out there than those looking to model in either O fine scale or Proto48 might first expect, even for the 'modern era'. I have to agree with others here who state Atlas and 3rd Rail are likely the best option for plastic models, and GGD for extruded aluminum passenger cars. I'll add Lionel in there too, they have quite a few cars that are superb looking and fairly easy to convert to 2 rail. There are some really nice brass rolling stock models that can be found as well from importers like PRB, PSC, Overland and others. And of course there are tiers above that too that get into the $$$ range. Anyways I like modeling grain operations so here's a few examples of what's available for that type,. (sorry about the poor quality photos, I took them with my cell phone).

Atlas's PS 4427 covered hopper are really nice, their Trinity 5161's are excellent too.

A 3 and 4 bay Lionel aluminum ACF covered hopper. These Lionel's are amoung my favorites.

Overland 4750cu covered hopper.

There are also a number of Atlas loco models out there that can be quickly and easily converted to either O fine scale or Proto48 simply by swapping out their wheelsets with ones offered by NWSL. I have only converted a pair of Atlas GP35's but I know it is applicable to a number of other Atlas models, and the conversion literally takes approximately ten minutes to drop in the NWSL wheelsets. As for brass yes they can be pricey however if one is patient there are often good deals to be had. I've purchased some modern era Overland's and PRB's over the years for example at near and sometimes less than what new Lionel and MTH locos sell for, here's a few examples.

Overland SF30C and U33C

 

Various Overlands, C44-9W's, C40-8W's, SD40-2, GP35's, SD75M.

Additionally if you like to solder and paint there are a number of CLW and other kits available from online auctions and at model trains shows that build up into pretty decent looking models that further expand the possibilities in 2 rail. 

The difference between O scale and Proto48 isn't that much tis true, so it's not a big deal to overlook. Here's what the difference in gauges looks like, House of Duddy O scale code 138 flex track in the foreground, Right 'O' Way Proto48 code 125 flex track in the background.

If one doesn't want to hand lay turnouts and track work there is s a pretty decent selection of RTR turnouts for O scale and even some for Proto48 turnouts. Building turnouts is one of my favorites aspects of model railroading though so I build all mine. Micro Engineering is a good source for O scale code 148 flex track, and Atlas code 148 flex track is pretty decent too. Right 'O' Way picked up Protocraft's line of Proto48 code 125 flex track some time back and is what I like and use just about everywhere. Both the Micro Engineering and Right 'O' Way flex are offered in weathered and non-weathered varieties.

Best of luck,

John

 

Thank you John, I love your work. I am wondering if I can pick your brain here in the near future and your modeling?

Thank you for sharing the ohotos and your knowledge..

Anthony 

Try and go to the Chicago March Meet in Lombard, Ill if you can.  Best place to get the best overview of both OW5 and P48 O scale.  We even have a meeting of P48 fans and suppliers one night; I think it's Thursday night.

P48ing any MTH or Lionel locomotive will be an exercise in frustration.  You can put .115 wheels on them but the rigid truck blocks mean all you'll do is derail every couple of feet unless your track work is perfect.

Sure Anthony, email's in my profile.

John

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

3rd Rail CB&Q E9 and E5

That's an awesome photo! 

I fell in love with O Scale when Atlas released their new switchers in the mid-90s. I never looked back. I work in just O Scale, however; I will add details to closely match the prototype. Without a doubt, the top two plastic models are Atlas and Sunset 3rd Rail. My hope is that Atlas will hear uor calls and return to the forfront of O Scale.

Dick

rdunniii posted:

Try and go to the Chicago March Meet in Lombard, Ill if you can.  Best place to get the best overview of both OW5 and P48 O scale.  We even have a meeting of P48 fans and suppliers one night; I think it's Thursday night.

P48ing any MTH or Lionel locomotive will be an exercise in frustration.  You can put .115 wheels on them but the rigid truck blocks mean all you'll do is derail every couple of feet unless your track work is perfect.

Though that would be awesome,  living in south Texas and working for the railroad my time is limited. I an hoping to catch something closer to my neck of the woods.  But i will keep this in consideration for future endeavors.. thank you

Antlor posted:

I have looked at all the models available,  I think Atlas would be the best (not including P&D and Desplaines), MTH is close but the other i feel are more toy like, ( not that there is a problem with that) but i am looking for products to be available to what the HO market is getting. I will be going the P&D route probably for my first build. I like that the basic dimensions are super close on the body leaving only minor body modifications and then adding the details you want.. SANTIAGOP23 I like the detail work you are doing (as others also) to getting the look of the prototype. The ones who model steam seem to have the market on stuff but I could be wrong. Thank everyone for answering back for sure.. 

This is what i do in HO and want to try in O.. 

Anthony, Very nice work in HO! I too model IC and CN and predecessor roads.   I too, like many others have talked to Shane about producing an O Scale model with high fidelity , based on their vision and what they've brought to HO and N Scales. Time will tell, but we definitely need to keep bringing them our requests! 

Antlor posted:

rdunniii posted:

Try and go to the Chicago March Meet in Lombard, Ill if you can.  Best place to get the best overview of both OW5 and P48 O scale.  We even have a meeting of P48 fans and suppliers one night; I think it's Thursday night.

P48ing any MTH or Lionel locomotive will be an exercise in frustration.  You can put .115 wheels on them but the rigid truck blocks mean all you'll do is derail every couple of feet unless your track work is perfect.

Though that would be awesome,  living in south Texas and working for the railroad my time is limited. I an hoping to catch something closer to my neck of the woods.  But i will keep this in consideration for future endeavors.. thank you

Anthony, for O Scale, this is one of only a few premier events around the country.  If at all you can make this event, I would highly encourage you to attend. 

Mike DeBerg posted:

Antlor posted:

rdunniii posted:

Try and go to the Chicago March Meet in Lombard, Ill if you can.  Best place to get the best overview of both OW5 and P48 O scale.  We even have a meeting of P48 fans and suppliers one night; I think it's Thursday night.

P48ing any MTH or Lionel locomotive will be an exercise in frustration.  You can put .115 wheels on them but the rigid truck blocks mean all you'll do is derail every couple of feet unless your track work is perfect.

Though that would be awesome,  living in south Texas and working for the railroad my time is limited. I an hoping to catch something closer to my neck of the woods.  But i will keep this in consideration for future endeavors.. thank you

Anthony, for O Scale, this is one of only a few premier events around the country.  If at all you can make this event, I would highly encourage you to attend. 

Thanks Mike, is there a link to the show by chance?