Scale rolling stock opinion

Boxcars differ in height according to the prototype. A 1950's PS-1 boxcar is taller than a 1930's AAR boxcar. Take a look at a photo of a 1950's freight train and you'll see - some boxcars are taller than others. The usual scale MTH Premier car is a PS-1; if you measure that next to an MTH AAR car it will be taller. The other variable is ride height - i.e. how high the car sits off the ground. Some manufacturer's trucks sit higher than others, but if you measure two scale cars of the same prototype, the bodies will be the same size.

The size of Rail King cars is not comparable to anything as they are not made to a specific scale or proportion. Williams doesn't make scale cars at all, except for some brass ones that were made a long time ago. 

A real boxcar will have a lot more dimensional data on it than three numbers.  The dimensional data is there to help avoid hitting things.  Tunnels are usually the most restrictive as they have arched roofs.  The data on the side of a car usually has the extreme height, the height and width if the eaves, and the height and width of the extreme width, usually the side door track.  For the customer usually the inside width, height and length are given.  If someone is talking about a 40 foot box car, that is usually the interior length and the exterior is about 44 feet.

All this data is now computerized and I would expect it to start disappearing from the sides of the cars In years to come. 

Compare a PRR X-29 with a 50's era PS-1........both 100% scale but VERY different in size.

I just used the outside numbers. I will add pics to show you what I am talking about.

You are dealing with items from five different companies, so of course there are going to be size variations.

You need to look at Lionel freight cars, some of their boxcars are totally off size for scale, the maintenance platform car(a.k.a. cop & hobo cars) verses the 6464 series boxcars, two differnet widths.

Even real trains have different height sizes for covered hopper cars.

Lee Fritz

Maybe I am just being picky The steel side cars have a max height of 13ft (Weaver, Crown) The PS1 14ft, the MTH AAR 13Ft. but sits higher than the steel sides. the Williams cars say 12ft but actual height is no different from the steel sides. The one thing I did notice was I swapped out the Williams trucks with the K line and that car sits lower. The big thing was I could not find the actual specs for the steel side box cars. I just wanted to insure that things were correct.

Is it me or are there differences between MTH premier, Atlas ,Williams, Weaver, Crown scale rolling stock?

Yes, there are many differences in level of detail, quality of decoration and scale fidelity.

Williams cars are "traditional" toy trains.  That means their scale is anything the manufacturer wants it to be.

Atlas also makes traditional toy trains from the former industrial rail product line.  The decoration is wonderful and details like car dimensions or capacities may be accurate to the prototype even if the model is not scale sized.

Atlas trainman, atlas masterline and MTH premier cars are scale models as is the Lionel Standard O line and Weaver models. 

Weaver has recently introduced scale modes of some distinctive freight cars from the late 1930s.  These are dimensionally accurate and well detailed.  Some of the older Weaver tooling is far less detailed and may be based on somewhat uncertain prototypes.  Decoration may or may not reflect accurate dimensions, especially on these older cars.  The Weaver "steel sided" and single sheathed box cars are from old tooling and based on smaller prototypes from the 1920s or early 1930s.

In the real world tank cars come in a wide variety of sizes based on the products that they are designed to haul.  Sulfuric Acid weighs about 15 pounds per gallon while ethanol weighs about 6 1/2.  So acid tank cars are quite small in volumetric capacity while ethanol tank cars are very large.

Covered hopper are like tank cars in that they are used to haul different commodities.  A cement hopper doesn't need hold more than a few thousand cubic feet to reach it's maximum allowed weight wile one designed for plastic pellets will be over 5000 cubic feet.

There are about 40 O scale models of box cars available today.  Some are based on 40 ton cars from the world war one era.  Some are models of 1990s prototypes.  And there are several dozen models based on prototypes from the decades in between.  Freight cars became much, much larger over the 20th century and our scale models reflect that.

If they are O Scale, how do they measure? 1/4"=1'. 12 foot would be 3" from the top of the rail to the walking surface on the running boards.  13' would be 3 1/4" and 14' would be 3 1/2".

Doug

I'm glad that you found that helpful.  I believe the Williams by Bachmann "scale" box car is 10 inches/40 scale feet long.  Other than that dimension I doubt it is a scale rendition of a specific prototype.  It certainly doesn't have the detail we expect in scale models these days, even in a lower priced line like Atlas Trainman.

You might enjoy looking at the Steam Era Freight Cars web site.  It has photos and information on a variety of cars. 

http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/index.html

This photo of a M & St. L USRA box car next to a larger Santa Fe car gives an idea of the growth in box car height and width that took place between about 1920 and 1940.

This Lee Pickett photo from the University of Washington library...

http://content.lib.washington.edu/pickettweb/

...gives an idea of the variation in car sizes in 1928, even before "modern" designs like the 1937 AAR box cars were on the scene.

If you have some questions on specific models please post photos and we can all go over the dimensions and details.

I recently modified 4 PS1 boxcars from 3 different manufacturers (MTH, Lionel, Weaver).  The overall dimensions of the "box" were close to the same for all 3 makers.

The differences I saw were in the way the doors were mounted.  These variations in mounting made a couple of the doors longer than others.  Also, the variations make it so doors cannot be swapped out.

Only 1 (Weaver) of the 4 had the correct doors on them for the cars they are suppose to be portraying.  I had to make 3 sets of doors and swap out 1 set, with another makers car, on an otherwise near perfect car (Lionel).

Another difference is in the way they mount the trucks to the underframe, causing cars to sit at different heights.  Why they can't/won't adhere to a standard on bolsters is beyond any reasoning

Here's some photos:

The "Silver Star" car is the Weaver car with correct doors.  This originally was painted as a Seaboard REA Express car, but the Seaboard cars WERE NOT PS1 boxcars.  Weaver had the most separately applied detailed parts of the 3 makers, made them easier to deal with during the modifications.

Well, when they want to, the companies can turn out amazingly similar products. 

I have a collection of PFE reefers that includes "high end" models (60-80 dollar, good detail) scale models from Lionel, MTH, Atlas.  All are so close to the same size it does not matter.  Detail on all three is comparable - better here on one than another.  Paint color varies slightly and is the only noticeable difference, but even that is only a slightly difference and well within the real-world differences that occurred.  Frankly, I often have to turn the things over and look to remember who made what.

The NMRA has recommended practices and standards for specific dimensions to foster compatibility.    For example, bolsters have a recommended thickness.   There is also a standard or a recommended practice for the height of the car floor above the rail.   Unfortunately, most 3 rail manufacturers have historically ignored these in a belief (I think) that it will lock more customers solely into their product line.

As for prototype cars, I think there are some AAR standards for overall width and height to insure clearances when cars are interchanged.    And of course all couplers are the same height.    Within those guidelines there is a lot of variation.   Boxcars started small and got bigger over the years.   And there were many builders of boxcars including some RRs themselves.    Each builder might do things differeently to gain a little more inside width or height.   Various roof structures showed up to get more space and to try to keep the insides dry.    All of this amounts to cars that can be slightly different externally and have the same official inside dimensions.   

All the size growth and manufacturing differences account for some size variation.   But as you say, if the dimensional data on the cars are teh same, they should be pretty much the same size. 

The key to figuring out whether the car is accurate to scale is identifying what the prototype was and checking the model against the prototype dimensions.    For example, the PS-1 (Pullman Standard) 40 ft boxcar should be the same regardless of whose model it is.    And it should sit the same height above the tracks etc. 

The same is true for the Pennsy X29 and the various USRA cars from the WW I era.

However a PS-1 may not be qujite the same as a 1937 ARA 40 ft boxcar as modeled by Intermountain (now Atlas) in O.   It is a different car.

The bolster situation is not about to change anytime soon as Lionel, MTH and Atlas all build for the 3rail market, Lionel and MTH almost exclusively [MTH does do 2 rail diesels and offers 2 rail trucks as a separate part] Atlas does make every model in both 2rail and 3rail ,only Weaver offers true bolstered carbodies.

Its a safe bet that anything from Weaver or Atlas O (Master Line and Trainman) is going to have the correct dimensions for their 1/48 scale cars.

Most of MTH Premier is correct although IMO they all ride too high on the trucks. I'm in the process of lowering some Premier Husky Stack cars so they will look a little better.

Lionel and K-line also made scale sized cars although its not always easy to tell just by looking at the box or by looking up the item number.

Its a safe bet that anything from Weaver or Atlas O (Master Line and Trainman) is going to have the correct dimensions for their 1/48 scale cars.

Slow down there Flash.  Atlas has put prototypical paint schemes for the GN and BN on rebuilt USRA box cars with the wrong width and height for the prototype .  The ends and roof are also totally wrong for the prototypes they purport to represent.  They are at least the correct length. 

I also tend to look a little skeptically at Weaver.  Their older models like the steel side cars often get paint schemes that never appeared on cars of those dimensions.  Even the brand new 40 foot Milwaukee rib side cars are being made in paint schemes that only appeared on 50 foot cars.

Lionel Standard O cars are generally quite good scale models.  Lately they have been doing good, but not perfect, research on matching models to prototype paint schemes and road numbers.  Like Atlas and Weaver, Lionel is in business to make money and will put popular paint schemes on the models they have available.

Some K-Line cars are great scale models but their box cars were not among them.

Ted 

Not to change the subject I know that SP renumbered their SD9s in 1965. Where can I find reference as to when they started repainting the SD9s to the Blood nose. I have been on 5 different websites but none say when. The reason I am asking is I just bought MTH SD9 #3800 . I know this was the first SD9  delivered #4401.  

SP's transition from the Black Widow paint scheme to the bloody nose began around 1958.  Typically the repaints were done when the locomotives were taken in for scheduled maintenance as well as repairs or rebuilds.  So this was a gradual transition that spanned several years.  If I recall the majority of the repaints were completed by the mid-1960s, including the SD9s.

All of the "scale" cars should have the same dimensions for the actual "box".  There may be some fudging on width to make the cars "look" right as the O gauge track isn't to scale.  Any measurements from railhead or "ground" will have to take into account that the wheel flanges are way out of scale to work on non scale track.  The vendors try to make sure that the cars coupler height matches and may take liberties with the distance between the truck bolster and car bottom for operational reasons or for appearances sake.

You mean you actually read the dimensional data printed on the model AND compared it to the prototype? WOW, you ARE a hardcore modeler!

I do. I want thing to be correct as possible. The Williams cars look to be the same prototype used for the weaver steel sides witch may explain the size.

I never considered Williams freight cars to be 1/48 scale, but maybe they are closer than I thought.

As far as having correct graphics and data on the model go...

A hardcore modeler would use paint and decals to correct the issue.

BTW, Mr. Martin H above, IS a HARDCORE modeler.

He has put forth considerable effort to correct the deficiencies of the 3-rail manufacturers and even scratch built some beautiful models.

And has proudly displayed them here on the forum.

(So that others may drool and envy his work )

I like to find photographs of scale rolling stock I am interested in by the different manufacturers to compare the look and feel of the models. This will also help determine which cars are purely fantasy. Take Weavers round roof boxcars. They were based on prototypes from the Pennsy and B&O, but were offered in other railroad schemes as well. It was shown, for example,  on this forum that the SAL version was not totally correct compared to the prototype, but close enough for most layouts. If Lionel, MTH or Weaver only made truely accurate cars for particular roadnames, the choices would be very small, and the prices higher than they are now. 

As for the data on the sides, you can find discrepancies in other scales as well, depending on the manufacturer. Also, there were several end, roof and door differences just between PS-1 owners! 

This is a matter of personal opinion to modelers, but with what is available today, it should be possible to obtain fairly accurate pieces that are 90 - 95% correct for a particular prototype. What is missing or incorrect can be changed to increase the accuracy.

The dimensions listed on the cars generally pertain to the interior dimensions of the subject freight car.  So generally when you say "40' boxcar" that's regarding the length from end to end measured on the inside.  The actual outer dimensions are a bit longer obviously, factoring in the outer bulkheads.  But you also have to consider how you're measuring the model, sometimes the consumer may be getting the overall length based on coupler-to-coupler or if including end-platforms.