Screws are too tight

Try snugging the other 6 back down and see if that lowers the tension on the last 2.

Or a tiny amount of liquid wrench on a toothpick. Then tap it several times each hour for a day. (time not critical except the day for full effect)

Make sure you are using the largest screwdriver that you can fit in the head.  Anything smaller and it won't have enough surface area to "bite" into.

Patience is very important. The penetrating oil idea is a good one - WD40 or Liq.

Wrench. Using a small center punch and small hammer tap in the screw head.

Vertically. We're trying to disturb the thread/plastic bond.

 

Regardless of methods, you may still, however, break the plastic "column" into which the screw was put. Been there, done that. Not a tragedy.

 

Place the locomotive in a cold, dry area. Not twenty below, but cold - 30's - 40's.

Overnight. This will shrink the screw and the plastic, and it -may- shrink them

away from each other. Try again in AM.

 

Cursing assembly tool/person will also help. 

 

 

LOL! D500, your last comment is so true. Thanks again for your help everyone.

Standard USA phillips head screwdrivers do not fit properly into many of the phillips heads screws that are used today. They tend to cam out or strip the screw head. The screwdriver tips are too pointy.

Special screwdrivers are available, but you can also modify a standard USA screwdriver to fit better. I've done this by using a bench grinder to grind away the very tip. Just take off a little at a time, test fitting the screwdriver into one of the screws you are trying to match.  I used a #1 phillips for the two I have made so far.

CW is right, you want a JIS screwdriver

Japanese Industrial Standard is shallower allowing more flange contact in pan head screws.

I keep a set around at all times. Most decent tool sources will stock them.

Will try to find the JIS screwdriver. Thanks!

The screw is relatively soft, or the inside of the phillips head would not have stripped-out.  On occassion I have been able to grab the outside of the screw head with diagonal wire cutters and gently twist the screw loose. 

 

 I have also use a standard phillip driver with the tip ground down slightly.  Good luck Mike CT

Smaller cutters.

This explains a lot why I was having problems removing a screw from my trains using a typical phillips head. I wonder why this topic hasn't been mentioned before...? I found a set for a reasonable price.

 

http://www.centralhobbies.com/tools/jis.html

Moody Tools are made in USA. Here is a set for twenty dollars, including shipping, on Ebay:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400327...geName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

The set from Central Hobbies looks like the Hozan set I use. If that is in fact what it is, that's an excellent price. The Moody set look like good tools, but being the miniature type, the handles wouldn't have enough leverage to loosen a stuck body screw. 

Is something like this from Harbor Freight too cheap to work?
http://www.harborfreight.com/1...river-set-68868.html

Probably.  Did you read the reviews?  I wouldn't use them on anything I cared about.

No, I didn't, I've just always wanted some with larger handles. The ones I have for my dslr are good and they are ribbed, so I can usually break screws loose using a pliers around the barrel, but that takes 2 hands. 

Earlier this week I had to modify a #0 Phillips head screwdriver to fit some JIS screws on a Polar Express Berkshire.

I decided to purchase a set of 58-0219 Moody JIS screwdrivers (precision size).

I might purchase a larger set as well.

Any suggestions? A Hozan set was mentioned above.

In the words of Eliza Doolitttle, "I think I've got it." There are two kinds of "Philips" screws: regular Philips and Pozidriv (often erroneously called Pozidrive, Posi-drive, etc.). The Pozidriv is a variation developed by Philips for production line applications to reduce camout. The cruciform slots have a slightly different shape and require a different driver. If you use a standard Philips driver in a Pozidriv screw head, the possibility of camout is increased, with accompanying damage to the slot. Here is a link to a Wikipedia article describing all kinds of screw drive systems, including Philips and Pozidriv.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

 

And here is a picture of the Pozidriv screw head. Note the extra whisker markings between the slots. That's how you tell the difference, assuming the screws are properly marked (some are, some aren't).

 

 

I read somewhere that Lionel has, for many years, used Pozidriv screws in preference to regular Philips head. I've seen the marks shown above on some screws on trains. Now, I can't say for sure that this is the problem, since I just looked up Pozidriv this morning and I don't have any of the drivers to test, but it sure looks like this could be it. I'm sufficiently intrigued that as soon as I finish this post, I'm going to order a pair of Wiha drivers in #1 and #0, which are the most common sizes for 0 gauge trains. Here's a link to the Pozidriv tools I'm ordering from Wiha's online store. The Wiha Pozidriv screwdrivers are hard to find from other online tool retailers. Wiha's shipping charge is only $3.99, so I'm just going to get them direct. Of course, other manufacturers also make Pozidriv screwdrivers and insert bits, but I have a big basket of Wiha drivers on my bench and I like them a lot, so I'm just going to add to the set. 

http://www.wihatools.com/200seri/262serie.htm

 

I don't think that the JIS drivers are the general solution to the camout problem. I have a set; they don't seem to work any better on most of the problem screws I've encountered on trains. The JIS screw head has a straight cross slot without the rounded corners of the Philips. This does not fit the description of the problem screw heads that I've seen. The problem screw heads look like Philips but the Philips driver cams out. 

Please let us know what you find.

I already ordered a set of JIS screwdrivers. (They have not arrived yet)

If the Pozidriv ones are a better choice, I guess I will order a set of them too.

Meanwhile, I have my modified ones.

If there is a Granger near you, they carry the USA made Moody Tool brand of JIS screwdrivers. Even if Granger doesn't have them in stock, they will have them for you in less than 24 hours; plus Granger takes cash or credit cards, and you do NOT need to have a business account with them.

JIS Screws versus Pozidriv screws

Which ones are used on our trains?

I have had pretty good luck with a small Dewalt electric screwdriver,an extension and a #1 Phillips head bit. Push the bit firmly into the screw with a bit of weight on it,then push the button. It usually backs the screw out without stripping it as the motor has a lot of torque and does the twisting instead of your hands trying to do 2 motions at once.

 

For a hole too big for a screw, a good carpenters trick is to insert a toothpick or 2 with a little glue on it and break it off in the hole.Then insert the screw.

 

Dale H

I use an old trick my Dad taught me. Take some valve-grinding compound  (I know who the heck has valve grinding compound at home anymore) and put it in the screw slotting area. Put a properly sized driver in the slot and have at it. The compound increases the contact area of the surfaces and holds them together. Will work every time.

 

Screws already stripped:  Get an old driver and cut the handle off so all you have is the head and the shank, fit it to the stripped screw and hit it with the appropriate size hammer and it will reshape the head somewhat and make the surface better for applying the compound and driver. To give it even more of a chance tap the end of the driver while you are applying the appropriate torque. The shock will help break the tension.

 

Another Trick my dad taught me was: If you want to get something loose at a later time use LOCKTITE on it. Yes he said LOCKTITE.

 

Using Locktite seals the threads from outside corrosion and is a type of plastic that really doesn’t have a very strong tensile strength. The amount of torque to break the plastic seal is far less than the torque that would be needed to break metal-to-metal or plastic or wood. So you can loosen a screw or bolt in the harshest conditions.

 

Now you’ve had the whole nine yards and my two cents.

Oh sorry, wrong subject. From the title I thought you were talking about Lee Willis. 

Don

Be Nice Don.

Once you get the screw out, a trick I have used is to drill the holes slightly larger in the plastic shell bosses, so it does not happen again.

There is no way these screws need to be as tightly set as they are from the factory.

 

Rod

I have been told I have just the opposite problem... I have a screw loose.

 

Rick

OK, here's the answer. I got my Pozidriv screwdrivers today and THEY WORK!!! I tested them on several recent-manufacture Lionel and MTH locomotives. In every case, a Philips screwdriver fit sloppily into the slot and required a lot of pressure to keep it from camming out. The Pozidriv screwdriver grabbed the screw and turned it easily without a hint of camout. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever - the screws used by train manufacturers are Pozidriv rather than original Philips, and using a Pozidriv screwdriver will eliminate the vast majority of camout problems. I absolutely do not understand why the manufacturers do not push this information, especially by including it in the instruction manuals. 

 

I am going to post this information on a new thread, since this is a widespread major problem and not everyone who needs this information may be following this thread. 

 

Pozidriv screwdrivers and bits aren't easy to find. I haven't seen any at Ace, Home Depot, or Lowe's. I got mine direct from Wiha. I got the small precision-type screwdrivers in #1 and #0, the most common sizes on trains, regular screwdrivers in #1 and #2, and a set of #1,2, and 3 bits for power drivers, etc. that use interchangeable bits. The tools are top quality, the site is easy to use, and shipping is reasonable ($3.99 basic, free if the order is over $100). When I placed my order they had a lot of other stuff on sale; I bumped my order up to $100 with some assorted pliers and cutters, all of which are excellent. 

 

Here's a picture of Pozidrvi vs. Philips drivers. It's hard to see the difference in the tips in the photo, but if you click on it for the larger version it will be a little better. The obvious difference is that the tip of the Pozidriv is shorter and flatter than the Philips, but there are differences in the flutes as well. The photo compares a #2 Wiha Pozidriv with a #2 Snap-on Philips, and two Wiha #1 drivers, one Philips and one Pozidriv. Wiha marks their Philips drivers as PH and their Pozidriv drivers as PZ. 

 

The foreign manufacturers have NOT used Philips head screws, since day one. I'm pretty sure they use NOTHING but JIS head screws, and THAT is probably why your new Pozidrive tip tools work so much better than a Philips driver.

The Moody Tool Co. JIS screw drives have worked just fine for my disassembly needs. But I can see that the Pozidriv could work even better.

I just went out and checked the JIS and Pozidriv drivers in some MTH and Lionel body screws. I realized that to get good results with the JIS, you need to use one size bigger than a Philips or Pozidriv tool. A #1 Philips or Pozi is the biggest that will fit in those screws, but a #2 JIS fits them quite well. The tip on the #2 JIS driver appears to be a bit less pointed than on the #1. The sizes of the JIS drivers appear to be just a bit smaller than the corresponding Philips or Pozi. Apologies to Hot Water - I had tested the #1 JIS driver against the #1 Philips and Pozi, but it didn't occur to me until now to try a bigger size. At this point I'm not sure whether the screws are JIS or Pozi - but either a #2 JIS or #1 Pozi works better than a Philips. 

Is this what you purchased from Wiha?

 

Item #	Description	Size
26205	PoziDriv Precision	#0
26210	PoziDriv Precision	#1

I've been meaning to get some of these, this thread pushed me over the edge, I ordered a #0, #1, and #2.  It'll be interesting to see how well they work on Lionel and MTH screws.

gunrunnerjohn,

Did you order the same item#'s I listed above?

Rgds,

Charles

I ordered a #0, #1, and #2 of the top design, and a #0 and a #1 of the bottom one.  I only got a confirmation # from the site, they never emailed the order image after completion, so hopefully they're really on order.   I didn't print the order before completion, just the confirmation # after confirmation, and apparently there is no way to check your order on-line.  They need to do a bit of work on their website.

 

John: Wiha e-mailed me a detailed invoice a day or two after I placed the online order. Time from placing the order to receiving the package was around ten calendar days. 

 

Charles: Yes, those are two of the drivers I ordered. 

 

As I mentioned in a previous post above, I tried the the JIS screwdrivers again and found that they work very well but that you have to use a larger size than the Philips or Pozi. My JIS screwdrivers are the Hozan brand, which are excellent quality tools made in Japan. 

 

I just e-mailed Mike Reagan to ask what kind of screw heads Lionel uses on its products. Hopefully a reply from him will settle this question once and for all. I should have done that a long time ago; better late than never. 

I got an autoreply from Mike Reagan that he's out of the office until the 13th, so I e-mailed Jon Zahornacky with the same question. 

There's no hurry, I found it odd that other than the page with the order number after placing the order I got no notification at all from them.  However, they do have good tools, so I'll wait to see what I get.  

 

I bought their complete sets of small hex drivers for working on stuff, makes taking the odd sized hex head screws on the drive rods easy.

Update - I just heard back from Jon Z. He doesn't know but will check with the manufacturer in China. I'm impressed by his getting back to me in two hours. I wonder what kind of screwdrivers are on the workbenches at Lionel and MTH?

I'm presuming you have not as yet received an answer.