Seen this before? MTH LED Full Vista Dome 20-64071

I haven't seen that, but I suspect you can relocate that.  It may work out like the MTH Woodside passenger cars that I added capacitors to.  It was a slightly different problem, they had no capacitors to prevent flicker!

MTH Premier Woodside LED Lighting Fix

I did notice that.  It must be on all of them.  My new UP dome has it (20-64181).

That is truly beyond lame!  Looks like MTH hired the Lionel QC Inspector.

If you open it up and take some photos I'm sure we can come up with a resettlement strategy.

It appears to have been an after-thought.  I'm curious if the modification includes the so-called DCS-choke for command operation...

I will have to open it up and take pictures for us all to look it over and come up with an action plan. Thank you John for the link to the steps you previously took. I am hoping it will be an easy relocation for the capacitor. I will add the choke if MTH did not. I believe it is a 22uh 1/2 watt correct?

You want one rated at 100ma or more, wattage isn't normally a choke rating, except for eBay sellers.   I called up a range of them, and here's a suitable part from Digikey: https://www.digikey.com/en/pro...c/78F220J-RC/1305996

Wow,  I have the Illinois Central version I just got (after waiting a long time) and haven't noticed it.  Because it sits in the center of the car, I'm not sure if there is another place to move it to.  My seated passengers have a clear view out of the City of New Orleans except when they look across the aisle to the other side where that capacitor hangs to block their view.  Darn, I might have to reduce the price of those obstructed seats!  Then again, not sure if the vista seats were assigned or just for sightseeing?

This is what you get when People refuse to check their CAPs with their other Luggage!

@VThokie Steam Fan posted:

..

I believe it is a 22uh 1/2 watt correct?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You want one rated at 100ma or more, wattage isn't normally a choke rating, except for eBay sellers.   I called up a range of them, and here's a suitable part from Digikey: https://www.digikey.com/en/pro...c/78F220J-RC/1305996

There must be some "conspiracy" with eBay Asia sellers where I can't find a good deal on 1/2W inductors any more.  I got my lifetime supply a few years back on eBay for a couple pennies each.

In any case, if you're willing to try aliexpress.com and wait, there's a seller there where you can get 22uH 1/2W inductors for 5-10 cents each in small quantity (free shipping from Asia):

These are so-called 0410 sized (04mm diameter x 10mm length) packages which is just a tad larger than the DigiKey inductor that GRJ links.  If you're familiar with 1/2 Watt resistors, those too are about 0410 in size...duh.

These are what I use for rolling stock to be used with DCS  As the datasheet suggests, these support 410 mA of current so more than adequate for LED passenger car lighting.

@VThokie Steam Fan posted:

I will have to open it up and take pictures for us all to look it over and come up with an action plan. Thank you John for the link to the steps you previously took. I am hoping it will be an easy relocation for the capacitor. I will add the choke if MTH did not. I believe it is a 22uh 1/2 watt correct?

I don't have this version of car, but it sure looks like there's plenty of open-space on the lower level?  Keep this in mind if/when you open up the car and take photos.

That is, I think it goes without saying that a soldering iron will be hot and ready to effect a relocation.  Some MTH cars pass AC track voltage from the lower/chassis-level via spring-contacts to the upper/shell-level.  The AC-to-DC conversion is then done "upstairs" and hence the capacitor must reside upstairs since capacitors are DC devices.

But if the AC-to-DC conversion can be done downstairs where there's presumably more room, then the capacitor can be located downstairs and you can send DC over the spring-contacts between lower and upper level.  This is just idle speculation in the spirit of a forum discussion.  The idea is to take plenty of pictures as I'm sure there are many alternatives.

If for whatever reason the capacitor absolutely must reside on the ceiling...since the soldering iron is already on perhaps breaking up the capacitance into, say, 3 or 4 smaller capacitors in parallel would not be as visually obtrusive...

You could also run fine wires from the current location of the cap to the end of the car and hide the cap there.   Since I haven't seen these cars, I can't comment on the alternatives.  Note that I was able to totally hide the caps in the previously posted thread about the Woodside passenger cars.

@stan2004 posted:

There must be some "conspiracy" with eBay Asia sellers where I can't find a good deal on 1/2W inductors any more.  I got my lifetime supply a few years back on eBay for a couple pennies each.

In any case, if you're willing to try aliexpress.com and wait, there's a seller there where you can get 22uH 1/2W inductors for 5-10 cents each in small quantity (free shipping from Asia):

eBay: 191964602221, $6 for 100, six cents each shipped.

Aliexpress, 500 1/4w with shipping $5.56, so a little over two cents.  These are smaller, but I suspect plenty of current handling for any LED lighting applications.

eBay: 192872567052, $15.98, a little over three cents each.

3 cents each is pretty good these days though I'm struggling to imagine how to manage a fleet of 500 passenger cars!   Anyway, I was lamenting about the good old days where there were countless listings from eBay Asia for 99 cents (free shipping).  You'd typically get 50 or 100 resistors, diodes, capacitors, or inductors...so a penny or two each.  It was like going to the Dollar Store!

Yep Stan, the good ol' days are gone, I see very few of those kinds of listings now.  I was thinking about that when I was digging out more 1N4007 diodes from my pack of 1,000 I bought years ago, still working my way through them.  I think I paid less than $4 for the diodes at the time, less than half a cent each.

I did get a recent bargain on eBay, and when I looked again, I see that they made a mistake in the listing, for a change in my favor.

I bought three of these, for a total of $4.80, I thought a pretty good deal.

When I go to the current listing, it obviously was a pretty good deal!  Now they're four times the price!

Thank you all for the information and links! I did pickup some 1/4 watt chokes in preparation to work on passenger cars.

John, do those isolated converters work even if the input voltage is below the higher ratings specified, as I see most say input of 50v-250v

@VThokie Steam Fan posted:

Thank you all for the information and links! I did pickup some 1/4 watt chokes in preparation to work on passenger cars.

John, do those isolated converters work even if the input voltage is below the higher ratings specified, as I see most say input of 50v-250v

This one appears to work down to 55VAC.  I bought these for a power line project, so no worries about that, I'll have 120VAC to drive them.  I just wanted 5VDC from the power line in a small package, that was the object of the exercise.

@VThokie Steam Fan posted:

...

John, do those isolated converters work even if the input voltage is below the higher ratings specified, as I see most say input of 50v-250v

Is the reason you're asking because you're pondering if these inexpensive modules could be used in rolling stock to convert 18V AC track voltage to low-voltage DC for, wait for it...LED lighting in a passenger car? 

Actually I was looking at using the Accessory Output from my Z4000 ( 10VAC or 14VAC) to power Menards Buildings and other LED lights on the layout.

No way that's going to happen Stan, I think with 55 VAC on the rails, you'd not have to worry about lighting the cars!

@VThokie Steam Fan posted:

Actually I was looking at using the Accessory Output from my Z4000 ( 10VAC or 14VAC) to power Menards Buildings and other LED lights on the layout.

Same comment, 55 VAC is the minimum input voltage.

@VThokie Steam Fan posted:

Actually I was looking at using the Accessory Output from my Z4000 ( 10VAC or 14VAC) to power Menards Buildings and other LED lights on the layout.

Understood.  There have been several OGR threads on this.  You can get low-voltage AC-to-DC converter modules such as:

The above unit even has screw-terminals which might make hookup easier (rather than having to solder).

There are some power issues to consider when applying these converters (total Amps or Watts) for building lighting.  Menards buildings are all over the map on their power requirements as I think the smallest has only 2 LEDs while some of the larger buildings have hundreds of LEDs!  You really need to do the math!  Rather than muddy the waters for your Vista Dome modification, I'm pretty sure a simple OGR search will pull up several relevant threads.

Sounds good! Thanks John and Stan! I will post once I have the Vista Dome apart and have pictures. With a 2.5 year old and the wife 35 weeks pregnant, projects do not move as fast, but hopefully I will have some pictures soon.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

No way that's going to happen Stan, I think with 55 VAC on the rails, you'd not have to worry about lighting the cars!

Same comment, 55 VAC is the minimum input voltage.

I was coming at it from another angle.  That is, for AC-to-DC conversion in rolling stock the low-voltage module I posted above works fine at 18V AC input...converts to 5V DC, 12V DC, or whatever DC voltage as needed in the rolling stock.  But that module is $3 or more and arguably a bit bulky...and still requires the DCS 22uH inductor, and, and, and...

It is also a non-isolated converter where the DC output "minus" cannot be tied to the chassis/frame which is typically electrically connected to outer-rail AC common.  This can have implications in some rolling stock applications.  Hence, I was curious if the isolated feature of the 55V AC converter was the basis for the question.

And, I suspect for every low-voltage AC-to-DC converter module made, a million or more 120V AC  converter module are made which goes to cost.  There would/could be a separate discussion on how to modify an inexpensive 55V AC converter to operate at 18V AC.  But I see that is not the issue...

First Step Done. Removed Main Shell. Here is the bottom floor of the car

Top Board Pictures: Board is flush so you cannot place anything but wires behind it.

I removed the capacitor and soldered in wire leads to relocate the capacitor to the end of the car where there is room to hide it.

AND The best part!!! MTH Installed a Choke at the input power leads:

Looks like you got the job done.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep Stan, the good ol' days are gone, I see very few of those kinds of listings now.  I was thinking about that when I was digging out more 1N4007 diodes from my pack of 1,000 I bought years ago, still working my way through them.  I think I paid less than $4 for the diodes at the time, less than half a cent each.

I did get a recent bargain on eBay, and when I looked again, I see that they made a mistake in the listing, for a change in my favor.

I bought three of these, for a total of $4.80, I thought a pretty good deal.

When I go to the current listing, it obviously was a pretty good deal!  Now they're four times the price!

GRJ, This caught my attention.  Is this what I think it is:  a device to drop a 110 volt accessory down to a 5 volt dc accessory that you can then attach to a 5 volt power source?  I have a 110 volt used accessory that I'd like to make this conversion:

@IRON HORSE posted:

GRJ, This caught my attention.  Is this what I think it is:  a device to drop a 110 volt accessory down to a 5 volt dc accessory that you can then attach to a 5 volt power source?  I have a 110 volt used accessory that I'd like to make this conversion:

Yep, that's exactly what it is.  Obviously, you need to put it into a proper enclosure as it's running 110 volts on the primary of the transformer!  It claims 600ma, but I suspect 200-300ma is closer to what I'd expect to be able to draw from it.

eBay: 373578134151 has them for $1.66 shipped free.  I also notice they reduced the power output claims to 300ma, more along the lines I was thinking would be the capability of this board.

Thanks, John.  Excellent information on an already great topic here!

@IRON HORSE posted:

GRJ, This caught my attention.  Is this what I think it is:  a device to drop a 110 volt accessory down to a 5 volt dc accessory that you can then attach to a 5 volt power source?  I have a 110 volt used accessory that I'd like to make this conversion:

Not sure I understand you project.  Is the 110V AC from the white 2-prong cord going into the paver?  Doesn't that mean there's a 110V AC motor (or whatever) inside the paver?  Is the project then to convert the 110V AC motor to a 5V DC motor and then change the power to 5V DC?

In any case, be sure you have enough power.  Not sure what your accessory actually does and hence how much power (in Watts) is required.  If the eBay converter is indeed "only" 200-300mA, then at 5V it is providing between 1.0 and 1.5 Watts. 

Note that these inexpensive DIY converters are what you would find inside the ubiquitious 5V chargers used for smartphones, tablets, and the like that charge via a micro-USB connector. 

Depending on your wiring, you might be able to use some part of a generic charger like this to get your 5V DC from 110V AC.

Great photos.  So it appears that in this style passenger car, MTH does the AC-to-DC conversion as one would expect on the lower board (with DCS choke...albeit apparently an after-thought since it's not on the board).  Then, DC is passed to the upper board via the pair of spring contacts.  That is, the upper board does not have diodes installed so it is operating on DC.  While mission-accomplished here, the DC interface between lower and upper might be used to advantage in a different project.

Stan, there is a motor inside the wood housing that the cord connects to.  I was hoping I could use a step down device and cut the plug off to connect to a 5volt or 12 volt dc power source.  It's sounds like there might indeed not be enough power to operate the 110 volt motor, huh?   --Mike

Must be a senior moment, but I'm still having a problem understanding the problem!

What exactly does the accessory do?!   

Your picture shows what appears to be a so-called AC synchronous gearmotor.  These are inexpensive 110V AC power motors that have a gear reduction mechanism so it rotates very slowly.  The $2 Amazon gear motor spins about 6 RPM when powered by AC line voltage... or one revolution every 10 seconds...very slow.  And it only consumes about 4 Watts.

This particular style of motor will NOT rotate if 5V or 12V DC is applied to it.  It would just get hot!

Of course you could replace the 110V/120V AC synchronous gear motor with a low-voltage (5V, 12V, whatever) DC gear motor.  Obviously this requires fussing with the mechanical coupling from the DC gear motor to whatever shaft connection is made from the paver to the existing AC motor...often it's a so-called D-shaft because the shaft looks like a D rather than a round O.  If you want to pursue this, I suggest starting another thread in the Electrical Forum and I will throw in my 2 cents.

Stan, You are not having a senior moment.  You understood the problem fine.  Thanks for your time and input.  You saved me a lot of time and frustration.