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Signal System - Looking for opinions on the best cost/quality/ease of installation

electric_express_200electric_express_200OGR Forum Member
Hey Guys,

I am in the process of rebuilding a 25X25 basement layout and currently in the track planning stage (again) with various other parallel activites including trying to decide on a signaling system. I am not a railroad man so I do not know the intracacies of all of the available and practical signals, but I know enough to know that I want block detection and switch position signaling. When I say block detection, I mean I want my train to correctly reflect when it is in a given block or section of track.

I have already purchased an Atlas switch signal 6931, a non-derail circuit, and a Z-stuff block signal detector (DZ-1011) to play around with them, check the quality and ease of installation and basically just get familiar with the wiring. Unfortunatly, I am stuck on the non-derail circuit at the moment, but have come across other interesting choices for signal systems. I saw the MTH signals in the Black Diamond railways video as well as Z-stuff. Z-Stuff good, MTH not so good. In the latest issue of OGR, there is an add for NJ International signal systems. They have brass signals in various prototypical designs, are brass, and look very reasonably priced. But up until a few days ago, I never heard of them. There is of course Z-stuff. I haven't opened the package yet on the DZ1011, but the package feels extremely light, kinda too light for 2 signals with motion detectors. Of course the only thing I have to compare it to is the Lionel 153IR Controller.

I really like the signals that have the intermediate yellow as the signal is moving to or from red/green.

Anyway's I could ramble on forever. I am heavily invested in Atlas track if that has any bearing on your suggestions.

Mike
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fisch330fisch330OGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER
Mike: I think that the best system out there is the Atlas/Custom Signals system. Each block signal is connected to others so you get a good representation of prototypical operation. And using Atlas track you're already one step closer. They offer a number of different signal styles so you can choose your favorite prototype's design.

As I understand, they are not compatible with Z-Stuff, NJ International or MTH; something about using a different ground system but I can't tell you exactly where the difference is.

As soon as they offer the "Type D" signals, I will make the move to add them to my layout as a complete signalling system. As far a I know, their's is the only system that actually shows occupancy in the next block ahead, as well as the immediate block the train is entering. I believe that the other systems use a timer to estimate a train entering the next block, not the actual movement of the train.

Paul Fischer
electric_express_200electric_express_200OGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by fisch330:
Mike: I think that the best system out there is the Atlas/Custom Signals system. Each block signal is connected to others so you get a good representation of prototypical operation. And using Atlas track you're already one step closer. They offer a number of different signal styles so you can choose your favorite prototype's design.

As I understand, they are not compatible with Z-Stuff, NJ International or MTH; something about using a different ground system but I can't tell you exactly where the difference is.

As soon as they offer the "Type D" signals, I will make the move to add them to my layout as a complete signalling system. As far a I know, their's is the only system that actually shows occupancy in the next block ahead, as well as the immediate block the train is entering. I believe that the other systems use a timer to estimate a train entering the next block, not the actual movement of the train.

Paul Fischer


My gut and first inclination is to go with Atlas. Maybe somebody has had a better experience or even a gottcha with installing or other manufacturers.
L LVfanOGR Forum Member
Hi Mike,

I agree with Paul,Atlas/Custom Signals are the best. You can design a prototypical correct system that will display the correct aspect for the train movement not just red green. Terry Christopher is the owner of Custom Signals and his web site has a huge amount of information about the signal system as well as information on railroad signals in general. Terry is a great guy and a pleasure to deal with. He will patiently answer all of your questions and explain the whole system. The Atlas system and Custom Signals are completely interchangeable.

http://www.customsignals.com/index.php


Enjoy Wink Cool

Frank
W woojrOGR Forum Member
I tried the 153IR Lionel on last year's holiday layout & was very pleased with the simplicity & flexibility with NO insulating rails. Loved the timer for the crossing gate application using two different length trains. Consistantly did what it was supposed to...

I hid it easily and will probably add another this year for a signal bridge I'm adding on a new section.

Also like the open-closed choice of switching.

And, so far it's reliable.
GE Gary EOGR Forum Member
Let me see if I understand the difference between the Z-stuff and Atlas signals.
The Z-stuff has an IR sensor built into the signal so will indicate the presence of a train only if it's next to the signal. So once the train passes the signal even if it's an inch or two the signal doesn't indicate the presence of the train.
The Atlas signal uses it's built-in detector attached to an isolated track section so it indicates the presence of a train anywhere in that section of track.
Is this correct?
Thanks
M maa5344OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
quote:
The Z-stuff has an IR sensor built into the signal so will indicate the presence of a train only if it's next to the signal. So once the train passes the signal even if it's an inch or two the signal doesn't indicate the presence of the train.


There is a time delay (adjustable) on the Z-Stuff signals that allows the user to determine how long before indicator lights change.

Mike
L LVfanOGR Forum Member
quote:
The Atlas signal uses it's built-in detector attached to an isolated track section so it indicates the presence of a train anywhere in that section of track.
Is this correct?


Yes this is correct,in addition since the system is daisy chained together the signal in the bock behind the train will display the correct aspect. The Atlas system and the Custom Signals system are the same as far as their circuitry is concerned. They both use the same circuit boards and the connections are identical. When I posted my comments above I said that they both are completely interchangeable. Terry Christopher at Custom Signals has taken the system to a higher level using his turnout control board you can have your turnouts properly signaled,using the tumble down control board you can control signals at passing sidings, the block signal flasher allows for flashing yellow and flashing green signal aspects. You can set up a proper signal system for an entire railroad. The Atlas system and the Custom Signals system were developed hand in hand by Steve Horvath at Atlas, and Terry at Custom Signals. It is for all intent and purpose the same system.

Enjoy Wink Cool

Frank
G3750G3750OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
quote:
Originally posted by Gary E:
Let me see if I understand the difference between the Z-stuff and Atlas signals.
The Z-stuff has an IR sensor built into the signal so will indicate the presence of a train only if it's next to the signal. So once the train passes the signal even if it's an inch or two the signal doesn't indicate the presence of the train.

...snip....

Is this correct?
Thanks


Not completely. The Z-Stuff signals do have a delay as was noted, but they can also be activated by means of an insulated rail. Or they can be activated when a switch (turnout) changes aspect. All methods are described in the very well written directions.

My DZ-1060s (PRR 7 light position signals) are triggered either by a insulated rail section (occupancy) or by a switch machine.

George
ChugmanChugmanOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
I have not had any experience with any signals other than Atlas/Custom Signals.

We started with a track plan that had the signal blocks identified by Terry Christopher of Custom Signals. This allowed us to put the insulated rail joiners in and install wires to each block as we laid track. I have three signals on the layout for testing and they work beautifully! My goal is to have a complete bi-directional signal system installed on the entire layout. We then hope to be able to have operating sessions where the engineers follow their trains and observe the signal system like a real railroad.

When linked together, the signals turn from red to yellow to green as the train advances through the signal blocks. Awesome! The real finishing touch for a model railroad in my opinion.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

Art
electric_express_200electric_express_200OGR Forum Member
Wow - Thanks guys

To sum it up, Custom Signals and Atlas work exactly the same way, daisy chainable, occupancy detection and switch aspect signaling. It seems that Z-stuff has all of that as well.

The only advantage I see for Z-stuff is from a cost perspective and there might be some difference in the heft factor, z-stuff being somewhat lighter.

The Atlas instructions leave a bit to be desired, so if Z-stuff is easy to read and implement, that would be an additional benefit.

So at this point, I think I need to test custom/atlas vs. z-stuff and just see which one is more appealing. I didn't hear anything on the NJ International, so to me, the experts, you guys, have not used them which makes me a little leary.

Thanks for all of your input. Will update the forum after playing around with the two choices and making my decision. I was already convinced on Atlas, but I think I will take a closer look at Z-stuff now.

Mike
GE Gary EOGR Forum Member
quote:
The Z-Stuff signals do have a delay as was noted, but they can also be activated by means of an insulated rail. Or they can be activated when a switch (turnout) changes aspect.

The Atlas signal board also has switch inputs. You can either have a yellow (YIN)or red(TM) aspect for turnout indication.

quote:
I think that the best system out there is the Atlas/Custom Signals system. Each block signal is connected to others so you get a good representation of prototypical operation. And using Atlas track you're already one step closer. They offer a number of different signal styles so you can choose your favorite prototype's design.

As I understand, they are not compatible with Z-Stuff, NJ International or MTH; something about using a different ground system but I can't tell you exactly where the difference is.


The difference is whether the LEDs are connected as common anode or common cathode. Steve Horvath at Atlas has already tested a new upgrade signal board that works with both types.
JoeTheBroJoeTheBroOGR Forum Member
I have to agree with some of the previous posts.
I use the Custom Signals and Atlas combinations and they require some up-front planning and work.
My layout includes Gargraves track with Atlas and Ross switches, so the combination requires some electrical mumbo-jumbo, but I have to admit, the results are
impressive. There's nothing cooler, than to watch the lights change as a
train enters a block or a switch transitions from mainline to diverting.
Or the signal "lites-up" as a train enters the preceding block when using the advanced approach mode.
One other advantage to Custom Signals, is their numerous track configurations available on
their website. Just pick the one that matches your configuration and follow the wiring schematic.
Joe
electric_express_200electric_express_200OGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by Gary E:
quote:
The Z-Stuff signals do have a delay as was noted, but they can also be activated by means of an insulated rail. Or they can be activated when a switch (turnout) changes aspect.

The Atlas signal board also has switch inputs. You can either have a yellow (YIN)or red(TM) aspect for turnout indication.

quote:
I think that the best system out there is the Atlas/Custom Signals system. Each block signal is connected to others so you get a good representation of prototypical operation. And using Atlas track you're already one step closer. They offer a number of different signal styles so you can choose your favorite prototype's design.

As I understand, they are not compatible with Z-Stuff, NJ International or MTH; something about using a different ground system but I can't tell you exactly where the difference is.


The difference is whether the LEDs are connected as common anode or common cathode. Steve Horvath at Atlas has already tested a new upgrade signal board that works with both types.


Any idea if these new boards have made it to market or when they will make it to market? Maybe a link that could take me to where the circuit is explained? -
Thanks,
Mike
electric_express_200electric_express_200OGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by Gary E:
quote:
Any idea if these new boards have made it to market or when they will make it to market? Maybe a link that could take me to where the circuit is explained? -
Thanks,
Mike

The new board is still in the testing stage. What circuit are you looking for an explanation?


The one you are referring to, the upgrade board that is being tested. Just curious to see boards inputs/outputs.
PRRMiddleDivisionPRRMiddleDivisionOGR Forum Member
There are two aspects (no pun intended) to this discussion.

The first is the signals themselves. The best include Atlas, Custom Signals (pretty much a custom built version of Atlas) and NJI. All others are toylike or inaccurate to some extent.

The other part of the discussion is the system chosen to operate the signals. I have been building signal systems on layouts since I was 16 years old, and the best that was available then were relays. Over the years, I learned to build signal systems operated by relay logic, and can pretty much just lay out the wiring as I go. It doesn't appear to be very popular today, and most modelers want to use an electronic system such as those offered by Atlas and Custom Signals. I can hardly blame them, but keep this i n mind. 12VDC 4PDT relays can be had for about $5 dollars a pop, so such a system is cheap. The logic is also easy to understand and repair/modify. Most boards cost far more, and if broken, must be replaced. So, if you are looking for something inexpensive and easy (but time consuming) to build, you might want to keep a relay system in mind. Finally, keep in mind that you are operating your signals the way the prototype did at least through the 1970's, and to some extent, even today.
rrmanrrmanOGR Forum Member
I use Custom signals to signal my X crossover interlocking. I bought four double headed 3 light signals from MTH, stripped out the electronics and replaced with two 4-conductor telephone cords connected to the upper and lower head LEDs. These in turn plugged into the eight Custom Signals control boards. Because the system has to know the turnout position in order to correctly light the heads, I designed a PC board that "reads" the turnout motor indicator lamps and in turn outputs the correct logic signal to the system.

Been working like a champ except for that fool engineer who insists on running through double headed reds! Big Grin
electric_express_200electric_express_200OGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by rrman:
I use Custom signals to signal my X crossover interlocking. I bought four double headed 3 light signals from MTH, stripped out the electronics and replaced with two 4-conductor telephone cords connected to the upper and lower head LEDs. These in turn plugged into the eight Custom Signals control boards. Because the system has to know the turnout position in order to correctly light the heads, I designed a PC board that "reads" the turnout motor indicator lamps and in turn outputs the correct logic signal to the system.

Been working like a champ except for that fool engineer who insists on running through double headed reds! Big Grin


If I ever become that creative, Sam, it would mean that I have finally retired and am doing what I love. I think I need to first understand the prototypical signaling system and how it works before trying to model it. While I don't want to over complicate the wiring/signaling, I want to be precise and as close to the real McCoy as possible.

But you and Neal Scott in his reply above, just prove that it is not necessary to absoutly stick to a given brand (although it does make things simpler I presume) in order to achive exactly what you want.

Thanks,
Mike
NH New Haven JoeOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Hi,  

 

I recommend that you decide what you want the signal system to do before you select a system.

 

I have seen many layouts in all scales.  The vast majority of layout owners use signals for display purposes only.  This means that they want a signal to turn red when a train passes, then they want the signal to change yellow and then green.  They do not use signals to control trains or indicate the position of switches, etc.  They don't care if a signal is green behind a when a train is in the next block because they are only running one train in a loop.  Trains on this kind of layouts operate according to "visual flight rules".  I am a member of a HO club that has 4,000 feet of track and can run over 10 command control trains at a time.  All the signals are "visual flight rule" signals.  The train engineers never look at the signals and we do have collisions.

 

A tiny group of operators use signals to control trains.  This usually requires a layout designed for walk around control.  The engines are all command control.  This requires the engineer to walk along with his or her train and to follow the displayed signal aspects.  These layouts usually have a dispatcher to control switches and train movements.  I have operated on several HO layouts with this control.  It is fun and prototypical.

 

My own layout will have both kinds of signals.  I couldn't design a walk around layout because of lack of space.  I plan to use Z-Stuff signals where I just want to see a signal change as a train passes.  My two main loops can only handle one train at a time.  I will have more complex wiring to indicate the position of some main line switches.  

 

Joe 

 

dk122trainsdk122trainsOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBERMEMORIAL SUPPORTER

I have begun installing Z stuff three light signal bridges to go with my z stuff three light signals. My goal with the bridges was to eliminate insulated rails and relays, well the signals work except they cant see the roofs of weathered cars passing underneath very well and brown roofs unweathered are not seen consistently well either because they think its the track below. Using the adjustment set screw has not solved the problem. When refereed back to management it is suggested use a insulated rail or relay. So much for plug and play!

DM Dominic MazochOGR Forum Member

I think Atlas/Custom can be wired for a "knock down" Southern Pacific type ABS system.

 

Also, if you have the people to run the layout, all or part could be run by Timetable/train orders, DTC Block or TWC.  SP used DTC in non-CTC areas.  Maybe you could have the ends of the layout going to/from ABS or CTC, with a dark section with one of the three systems.

Z-Stuff For TrainsZ-Stuff For TrainsOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBERFORUM SPONSOR
Originally Posted by dk122trains:

I have begun installing Z stuff three light signal bridges to go with my z stuff three light signals. My goal with the bridges was to eliminate insulated rails and relays, well the signals work except they cant see the roofs of weathered cars passing underneath very well and brown roofs unweathered are not seen consistently well either because they think its the track below. Using the adjustment set screw has not solved the problem. When refereed back to management it is suggested use a insulated rail or relay. So much for plug and play!

Don,

We have a new version of software (since 1/15/2013) to improve detection. If you like you can return the signal bridge and we will install the new software.

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