Slow 8305 Engine

Make sure you have good tension from your brush springs.

jim sutter posted:

Make sure you have good tension from your brush springs.

Jim thanks for the help. When I went in to the engine last time they were fine, but I will check them again.

I've had similar problems with these 4-4-2s.  Personally I think the wiring Lionel MPC used in the motor/chassis is underspec'd for the amount of current they can pull.  Note the MPC 4-wheel motor has a larger armature and more laminations than its postwar counterpart.  Plus these are carrying the heavy 2037 style cab, but have the taller gearing of a 2034.  When you pull a heavy load the rubber tires prevent the wheels from slipping and things can get HOT.  This is even more true the chopped-wave power supplies common today. 

The advice I got here on the Forum is what Jim told you-- replace the brush springs.  I bought new ones, but never got around to installing them .  Let us know how you make out.

I have three of these engines and they are about the best of all my MPC era engines. Make sure all is clean and as jim says the brushes are secure and not worn down. sometimes the reverse unit needs a good smack but generally they are trouble free and grewat smokers after replacing the units with new ones from the train tender,

I've never had any kind of failure with these designs, but keep in mind that MPC probably did not think originally that these would be asked to pull much more than their 3 car consists when drawn up. Also, these sets were designed for & came with 50 watt(input) and sometimes smaller 16 volt transformers, not KWs or ZWs.

I have found that these do run a little warmer with modern electronic power supplies as opposed to straight sine wave transformers.

If yours has heated up appreciably, the windings may have now broken down.

   I'm guessing the windings or brushes too. I have bad luck with thin wire dual fields on the diesels, not steam though. But overheated eunit fingers might do that too And a shorted smoke unit is a possible draw issue that can be overlooked as heat and smoke isnt that unusual here. (It used to be tinsel, lol, has been a stray wire clipping and a stainless wire wheel bristle loss to date).

   Pressure is a big factor questio in electrical contact. The more the better. A weak sprung brush's potential suffers directly proportional to pressure loss, but I've never needed to replace one as weak yet.

  After a dressing, new brushes, springs, etc., the commutator may get dirty faster with brush dust, and clog the contact plate gaps quickly, especially if lots of oil is present. It's just part of breakintg them in. I can bush them clean one at a time with a paint brush or toothpick without disassembling on some motors.

The finer the better on sandpaper, clean the brush tubes, wipe brush faces well & dress them flat if you must, &/or  watch any slant is at least oriented the same or your pickup timing is off up to near ⅛" too. Isolation and continuity/resistance check on the armature and shaft.

The field can be a PITA. I've been lucky enough to be able to do armature swaps to findout as soon as it warmed it was crap.

My 8304 did the exact same thing.  Someone, possibly Jim, said to check the brush spring tension.  I gave them a gentle tweak with needle nose pliers, not a full-on bend but just enough to increase their tension. The engine has run fine since.

mlavender480 posted:

My 8304 did the exact same thing.  Someone, possibly Jim, said to check the brush spring tension.  I gave them a gentle tweak with needle nose pliers, not a full-on bend but just enough to increase their tension. The engine has run fine since.

Thanks Mike, it was Jim.

Matthew B. posted:

I have three of these engines and they are about the best of all my MPC era engines. Make sure all is clean and as jim says the brushes are secure and not worn down. sometimes the reverse unit needs a good smack but generally they are trouble free and grewat smokers after replacing the units with new ones from the train tender,

Matthew,

Explain what MPC means.

Model Products Corporation.

Ted Sowirka posted:

I've had similar problems with these 4-4-2s.  Personally I think the wiring Lionel MPC used in the motor/chassis is underspec'd for the amount of current they can pull.  Note the MPC 4-wheel motor has a larger armature and more laminations than its postwar counterpart.  Plus these are carrying the heavy 2037 style cab, but have the taller gearing of a 2034.  When you pull a heavy load the rubber tires prevent the wheels from slipping and things can get HOT.  This is even more true the chopped-wave power supplies common today. 

The advice I got here on the Forum is what Jim told you-- replace the brush springs.  I bought new ones, but never got around to installing them .  Let us know how you make out.

No go on the increase of the speed. Brushes are fine.  Springs are adjusted. I have noticed for the second time the pick ups are heavily pitting and the frame that holds the horse shoe field is getting hot next to the pick ups. Also noticed that the pick ups are sparking pretty bad. Sounds like what I would maybe call feed back. 

Any info guys?

jim sutter posted:

Model Products Corporation.

 

Just a tad bit more detail:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel,_LLC#The_MPC.2FGeneral_Mills_era_.281970.E2.80.931986.29

Sounds like there is not enough tension on your pick ups to the middle rail. The tension spring is not holding the pick ups tight enough. Try bending the spring to put more pressure on your pick ups. 

  Lionel went bankrupt by 1969. General Mills/Quaker bought it and put it under the MPC divisions control. The 70s until the next corporate shake up of the 80s is the "MPC era" for Lionel. There was both inovation, and a cheapening of products, leaving mixed reviews on the era; but other than nostalgic "day glow colors" and a few premium trains, they tend to have a reputation for mediocre to cheap quality in comparison to Post War. The marketing changed drastically, nice models no longer stocked at Sears, Kmart,etc. And at the same time Atari video games were introduced and they ate the remaining train displays up.   

   There were also DC only starter sets introduced and lots of folks burned them up on their old tracks transformers. Some were so cheap, even the car wheels were made of plastic. (And we complain about plastic trucks, lol)

So very suddenly, and public opinion in full swing by 74, they developed a cheap toy reputation, topped with unreliability and incompatibilty to back it. All because all the general consumer saw after that was the starter sets. By 75 I thought Lionel would never again make anything worthwhile for the start up market. Williams, Walters, TMCC, MTH, & K-line nearly killed them too, but also woke them from slumber time and again, each in their own ways.

bmoran4 posted:

jim sutter posted:

Model Products Corporation.

 

Just a tad bit more detail:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel,_LLC#The_MPC.2FGeneral_Mills_era_.281970.E2.80.931986.29

 

Good info Jim. Thanks.

New topic.      Would anyone have a parts breakdown diagram on a 8305 Milwaukee road o gauge 4-4-2.  70's. Also the electrical diagram for the same engine or how to acquire one.  Have checked with Lionel and Olson. Did not find one.

Also, Guys thanks for the input. 

That had a sound system. called the Mighty Sounds of Steam...If the tender is with it, don't run it until you inspect and replace the foam the sound board sits on. Those boards short out on the tender frames as the foam deteriorated over time. The capacitors go bad too. There is a thether wire to the tender, I don't recall if it's the chuff switch or power to the tender, but is one of the two, or both. The rest is just like any other similar loco, any basic diagram applies to the motor, smoke, and light.    Finding rebuilt boards is possible, but installing new sound is a huge step up from that static generator stuff and IMO worth the extra cost in end result compared to spending 60%+ on a repair. The first thing to do if the board is dead or dying would be replace all the caps.

I think ADX Rob or GRJ posted something in the way of electrical on the " sound of steam " boards a few years ago. Use the advanced search in the upper left "hamburger menu" (stacked blue lines) and you might pull it up pretty easy.

On parts, often there is only one parts breakdown on a loco type. Other similar trains must refer it also.

    I.E., You may need to look for the Nichole Plate 4-4-2 of that time. If there are parts that only appear on the Milwaukee, it is usually noted on the NP diagram. I'd look at C&O, NYC, Santa Fe and NP as possible alternates for that loco.

("NQDY" Nichole  .  Been a while since I thought of her. I guess maybe she did lose..   ...RIP Dearie , I'll run cab forward for ya tonight!)

trainut posted:

New topic.      Would anyone have a parts breakdown diagram on a 8305 Milwaukee road o gauge 4-4-2.  70's.

He needs to trade in that life jacket in on a super hero cape, eh?

Those pages are from the Service Supplements 1-9 document on the Lionel Support website.

ADCX Rob posted:

trainut posted:

New topic.      Would anyone have a parts breakdown diagram on a 8305 Milwaukee road o gauge 4-4-2.  70's.

ADCX Rob posted:

Those pages are from the Service Supplements 1-9 document on the Lionel Support website.

thanks Rob

I did look at lionel but could not arrive at any info.

What I am trying to do is repair my other 8305 also.

The metal gear on the armatour and the small plastic gear that connects to are stripped and the gears lock. Wheels will not turn. There is also a cover that is over both of these and I would like to know how to remove this cover which is also plastic and has two metal tubes through it. Holding the cover on. Would you help or is there a diagram for the motor? Really at a crossroad!

Hope this helps you. To remove the cover you asked about, I believe its held in place by two small screws.

jim sutter posted:

Hope this helps you. To remove the cover you asked about, I believe its held in place by two small screws.

This helps a lot but alas I do not have the screws. Mine are aluminum tubes rounded at ends to hold on the cover. Well, here goes experimentations. Any advice in drilling out the tubes to get the one rounded edge off. What would be the best screw to use?  All of these two motors must be pre diagram. Thanks Jim!

60 year old child with problems

If you could post a picture of your predicament, we would be better able to help you. Just for confirmation, you don't have screws holding your brush plate on?

Don't! Not yet!

To post a picture, use the "attachment tool", blue, at the bottom of the composer box. Once loaded and processed, an option to insert into text full size appears. If you don't check it, or forget, you must go to the picture now at the bottom of the composer, choose insert photo, and choose a size; small,med, large. Not choosing a size at all, the photo appears at the posts end as a thumbnail pic.

From what you describe, it sounds like it might riveted on. That would be unusual and possibly shouldn't be messed with because hard core collectors love one-offs, even if it's dead. And anything odd "should" be documented if you can.

Those look like pop rivets to me. Now why would someone replace the screws with pop rivets? Lost screws? Loose screws? Buggered up threads? You could drill them out and figure out what is going on as I doubt those are factory.

Ive read what's there a few times, and can read it different ways, so please bare with....

  The "tubes". Look close at the diagram above Jim posted. Is it the brush cover plate, or the armature bearing plate? Because the brush plate does have tubes, but they don't secure it.

  The armature bearing plate on the other hand; that I could see being riveted on. It would seldom get removed. But check the back side of the "tube" for a screw head, or a staking/rolling of the end. I say look for a screw head from the back because it may also be a low profile head on a threaded insert. They are used in tight situations instead of a normal nut or the screw head on the outside because it's flatter than a screw head or nut.

Let us see it to be sure though, but if it does turn out to be a rivet, drilling the head off is standard procedure. The PITA is if it spins in place.

After? Could the tube be threaded; tapped maybe?

Inside and out are the same heads. If pop rivets they would have a center metal core for the gun to pull on for tightening.

Looks like pop rivets to me too. If you pull the armature & brush plate, you should be able to see the rivet ends to know for sure, the tube will be distorted, stretched fatter than the hole. It might be easier to hold them from spinning with needle nose as you drill the heads off anyhow. And once the head is off, it often still takes a reasonably strong pull to get it out, or a few taps with a hammer and drift (punch). If the holes are threaded still, you might have to unscrew the rivet stub( the rivet tube being set also fattened it, so likely is grabbing the threads.

Sometimes the nail head core does fall out. It could also be a normal rivet.

If it is hollow, no core, I'd drill the head off. Use a bit larger than the hole. High speed, low pressure, go slow. And be mindful to avoid heat, severe bit grabbing, and shocks. Lionel motor plastic is normally strong, but slightly brittle at times,  good with heat. Everything has its limits though .

Alright Guys

From all of your help I found the correct engine and it did have rivets. At Lionel dot com, under supplements 1-9 pages 419- 420 engine 8601-100 motor has rivets. Only the pick up shoes are different.

Setting the 8305 aside for a while but shall return to it. Going to after a rest from it, I shall redo every connection with fresh solder and probably new wire.

Thanks  Guys

Here's one more thing you might consider, but not sure how easily it could be fixed...  

Growing up we had a plastic-bodied 8203 with basically the same motor/chassis as your 8305.  It always ran insanely fast with a lot of wheelspin and very little pulling power.  After several years and repair attempts, my father noticed that the chassis wasn't staked tightly, and the frame plates weren't parallel.  (Note that MPC used light-gauge aluminum side frames with zamac spacers, vs. the black steel used in the Postwar years.)

When he squared up the frame plates and restaked it, the running characteristics were much closer to the 8303 "Blue Streak" that I was used to.   A dive off the table could easily cause the frame to loosen or become misaligned, and I'm pretty sure poor alignment could cause slow, hot running as easily as poor traction.  Check it out!  -Ted