Solution for Lionel Traction Tires

I have the same “whobble” and the tires look badly chipped and un even but this appears to be a low end engine by lionel it is a u36b motor truck assembled side frames with rivets no screws. Does anyone know a way to re attach the side frames as the rivets appear to be an integral part of the frame I don’t know if screws could fit the limited space to re attach. anyone know a solution on this or maybe have to junk this thanks for any input

can the side frames of this u36b diesel be re attached. the side frames are mounted with rivets not screws I believe it’s a low end engine any tricks I may have missed to re assemble the side frames?

FWIW, I use MTH traction tires on most Lionel diesels.  They fit and are thinner to replace the overly fat Lionel tires.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

FWIW, I use MTH traction tires on most Lionel diesels.  They fit and are thinner to replace the overly fat Lionel tires.

BINGO.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

FWIW, I use MTH traction tires on most Lionel diesels.  They fit and are thinner to replace the overly fat Lionel tires.

Which MTH part number for this John?

DE-0000018 is the common diesel tire, it's good for most diesels.

Thank you John!

I am just now pulling out my trains that I have had put away in a spare room for years. Both older "real" Lionel as well as newer MPC Lionel and some MTH as well. This "traction tire" nonsense is one of the most ridiculous things I ever saw. I remember when I was using some of my MPC garbage back in the 90's I just cut the tires off and ran them without any and they ran so much better! If ANYTHING is needed for traction magnetraction was great ($$$) and many of my old engines have NOTHING and they pull just fine. I can't stand this new cheap garbage! The you see the prices these guys charge for these glorified rubber bands that are punched out in China by the billions and like one gentleman said $9 for shipping? I don't think so! 

I don't know how many reading this are audiophiles but it is NOT easy to make a proper rubber belt or "tire" that is consistent in dimension. Poorly made turntable belts cause horrible wow and flutter but here we are talking about ultimate precision and the costs are warranted. These train tires are TRASH which is why so many new ones wobble and everything else. Loose fits, you name it. And God FORBID a microscopic dot of oil gets on one! 

All I know is I'm done with getting ripped off for rubber bands and I just cut them off and if I need more power I'll do like the real guys do - add another engine! Never, EVER will I buy an engine with rubber bands for traction. Whatever I have was REGRETFULLY purchased years ago when I didn't realize what junk it was.

These manufacturers push garbage out and collectors just keep buying it. Ugh!

I Just found this video on youtube. Here is on SMART GUY who did like me - he cut the **** things off and check this out! His MTH engine pulls better than ever and is pulling a 22 car train! WAKE UP EVERYONE!!!! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlkAiAHVoKo

Calm down, it’s just trains...

fisherdoc posted:

I Just found this video on youtube. Here is on SMART GUY who did like me - he cut the **** things off and check this out! His MTH engine pulls better than ever and is pulling a 22 car train! WAKE UP EVERYONE!!!! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlkAiAHVoKo

Thanks for sharing the cool video fisherdoc. 22 heavy looking cars too.

We don need no steenkin' traction tires!

Don't hold back, tell us what you really think!

The need for traction tires really depends on the specific locomotive in question.  There are some that would not pull a couple of cars without them, others work well even without tires.

One thing you neglect to mention.  A problem in running without tires with a locomotive that has provisions for them is the grooved wheels will make them jump around more than with uneven tires.

My thought was exactly what John said. 

I have difficulty seeing how a grooved wheel with no traction tire on it can successfully navigate something like a turnout regularly. 

If you run just a loop, I would guess maybe it would just wobble a lot.  But wobbling a lot while going through a turnout is generally a recipe for bad things to happen.

-Dave

I've run stuff without traction tires, it's typically not a pretty sight.  Some engines run pretty well, others wobble like crazy.  Besides, I don't have all the terrible issues with traction tires that I'm hearing about, so it's a moot point for me.

They ain’t hard to change at all ....get some dental pick tools and keep them handy as “tire irons”.........no need to make mountains out of mole hills.......Pat

Just a thought..  Perhaps cleaning/cleaner residue on the tracks is causing premature traction tire issues..

I've only had to change 1 tire in 15 years.

I don't think those container cars are that heavy.

I'd like to see that same loco pull 10 scale passenger cars with 6 axles between cars instead of 2 in addition to the pickup rollers which also add drag.

No traction tires on this train

https://youtu.be/-ikBrHi5gvY

Thanks for all the input! I guess my frustration showed through LOL.  Back in 1980 when I bought my first "modern" (i.e., MPC) Lionel - in this case the Silver Burlington "Texas Zephyr" - I was warned by the guy at the shop - slow starts and slow stops. Then I added more passenger cars and forget it.  Every time I tried to start out POP off came a tire! So I cut them all off and it ran fine albeit when I added like 17 cars it had a few issues LOL.

What really irked me this time are the prices they are asking for what are nothing more than glorified rubber bands. And then the shipping!  Some of the posts about the inferior quality attest to this.  Belts of this nature (not unlike a turntable belt) need to be properly made and ground to close round tolerances to avoid wobbling etc. Much of what is on the market appears to be inferior.

Anyway, after THIRTY YEARS I am pulling out all my MANY trains little by little and getting into them and these bad tire memories cropped up as I started repair work to one of my MPC era diesels. Thankfully the steam locos I bought back then were still magnetraction even though the 611 N&W "J" issued back then with magnetraction is barely capable of pulling the passenger cars it came with!  But that was a very sad period for Lionel for the most part and for me a lesson learned.

In the meantime I also have several MTH locos that have never been out of the box that I assume use those tires. Oh well! I hope my future experiences are more in line with some of the more positive responses I've seen!

Anyone have the part number for MTH steam loco tires?

probably available on ebay or the lionel site

I don't like traction tires as much as the next guy but my MTH tires have generally lasted well and have been easy to change on the diesels and not too bad on the steamers. It helps that I have O-54 and O-72 curves, run short consists (6 or seven freight cars and 3 or 4 passenger cars), and start and stop gently. I also think it is better for traction tires to run on Atlas O flat-topped rail which probably has a larger and more uniformly-stressed contact area than traditional rail.

Picture shows stretched traction tires removed from my MTH Premier LIRR G5s locomotive. Second time I have changed them on an engine that is at least 15 years old.

MELGAR

I've had a curved rail wedge it's self into a steam drivers tire groove; stopping it dead and requiring it to be "peeled off" with surprising effort. After that I keep the tires on. 

Steamers also tend to tip like a dinner table with a short leg during starts and stops/ slow downs.

 I imagine some increase the traction by wedging slightly into the rails, pinching it as it turns.

I e also imagin edges of the groove also do some wearing to track; grooving tubular at 10 o clock/2 o clock; and rounding some flat rail's nice edges.

I don't prefer a tire to MT; bur tires DO grip better than plain steel  when right.

I mostly dislike the connection issues that the tire locos often have compared to a steel tire; from anti-derailing to accessories on isolated rail actuation the tires fail to trigger...not often; but often enough to dislike them

Thanks guys, very interesting post.  I've learned quite a bit from this post.

clem k posted:

No traction tires on this train

https://youtu.be/-ikBrHi5gvY

You know that for a fact?  Considering these are 3-rail MTH engines, I wonder if that's really true. I'm sure those locomotives all have provisions for traction tires.

Also, the consist has nine locomotives for his 200 foot train.  I managed my 115 car train, including a long 2% grade, using two Legacy U-Boats.  Yes, they had traction tires.

Santa Fe VA posted:

Anyone have the part number for MTH steam loco tires?

There are a number of part numbers, it depends on the driver size.  Download the chart and you can find the correct tire for your application.

M.T.H. Locomotive Traction Tire Chart

Positive no traction tires !!  These are MTH 2/3 rail locomotives that the traction tire wheels where removed and 3 rail wheels put on. Also all wheels flanged.

Like I said, nine locomotives for around 130-140 cars, even without traction tires they should be able to do that.  Let's see you pull 100+ feet of train with two locomotives without traction tires, then I'll be impressed.

All wheels flanged would be a good thing for traction I'd expect, the blind wheels typically don't seem to add as much to the party.

Traction tires are not an issue with MTH engines. The steamers all have the tires mounted on the rear driver which is easy to access. Loosen the hex head screw on the driver and slip the old tire off and the new one on. Stretch the tire around the driver with toothpicks or dental picks.  In contrast, many Lionel steamers have the traction tires mounted on the front drivers hidden behind the cross head and connecting rods. Some engineer at Lionel must have had a brain cramp when deciding to put the tires on the lead rather than the trailing drivers. The diesels are no sweat, especially the more recent ones as the side frames can be removed without dropping the whole power truck. Even that chore is easy after you do a couple.

I have a 3 month old traction tire and my steamer is suddenly slipping. I have it pulling 7 freight type cars, but what really matters is the force and weight, of which I don't have a good way to measure the force and weight. Physics and trains go hand in hand. These train companies should sell a force measuring device so we can tell if our trusty train is having issue later on in its life. Anyway, I used mineral spirits to clean my track and I guess that's what most people use, so I'm not sure what the issue is. My train actually pulled more cars/weight before it started slipping. Anyone have an idea of how to know if your traction tire has gone bad. - I guess it's possible that my new traction tire may have been on the shelf for a long time too (developing tire rot). Maybe someone has a closeup image inspecting a tire and what a person can look for as a sign the tire has gone bad. - I know I should just replace it and see, but instead of using a new tire, maybe the tire isn't the problem based on some closeup visual indicators. - Just wondering...

You can use a postal scale to measure weight and a fish/luggage scale to measure tractive effort. Both pretty cheap these days.
Besides cleaning the track have you tried cleaning the tires? I just hook up the transformer leads to a pickup roller and frame and touch a Q tip to the tire with your favorite solvent.

Pete

I think something else must be in play here.  Unless we're talking impossible grades here, 7 freight cars shouldn't cause any decent steam engine to break a sweat!

Here's one steam engine pulling 54 cars.

Also ensure rolling stock wheels are oiled and not binding. 7 cars should not be an issue.

In referring back to the title of this post, my new Union Pacific F7 powered B unit I received just last Christmas, began wobbling, then shut down my main passenger line. Sure enough, the cause was a loose traction tire.

I took off the truck sides and replaced it with an MTH DE-0000018 traction tire, the same that gunrunnerjohn had posted toward the beginning of this old thread as a replacement and it now runs perfectly.

So evidently, Lionel’s factory diesel traction tires can still cause problems. 🤔

I'm gonna risk being unpopular and confess to using Permatex liquid gasket. I have to say that so far so good. Seems to be working great on an MPC loco I couldn't find tires for. I know it might mean cleaning it off the wheels later before reapplying, but not a bad option if nothing else is at hand.

@Norton posted:

You can use a postal scale to measure weight and a fish/luggage scale to measure tractive effort. Both pretty cheap these days.
Besides cleaning the track have you tried cleaning the tires? I just hook up the transformer leads to a pickup roller and frame and touch a Q tip to the tire with your favorite solvent.

Pete

Thanks for the advice. I'll give these tips a try. - Thanks.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think something else must be in play here.  Unless we're talking impossible grades here, 7 freight cars shouldn't cause any decent steam engine to break a sweat!

Here's one steam engine pulling 54 cars.

Wow! - Thanks for sharing this video. I suspect that my issue may be a combination of things. Grease on wheels (possible) and O31 turns. - But, regardless, this video is a great proof. - Thanks.