Southwest Chief Cutbacks

How do you find out how ridership is doing in a certain city?  They officially opened an Amtrak stop in Norfolk Va. back in Dec, 2013 (had been unofficial since Dec 2012), I'd like to find out if it is doing well.

So is the plan to cut off the east end, the west end, or a section in the middle? Frankly, if you aren't going to run the whole route, why bother. I am a fan of Amtrak, but the political situation around Amtrak drives everyone nuts.

The train would be relocated to BNSF main freight route thru Amarillo bypassing Colorado and Albuquerque.  It is flat and not particularly scenic.

mikeg

The chief not stopping  at Albuquerque is enough to make Chico cry.

Chico can ride the route of the San Francisco Chief through Abo Canyon. 

Amtrak or not, BNSF I think is making a BIG ERROR not to keep the old Northern Route of the AFSF in good shape.  True, there hare mountains in CO ans NM.  But it can be a relief route in case of derailments and traffic surges.  If with with the Southern Route now mostly two main tracks, I wonder if the "dash 9" Z freights would make better time up there?

Gonna ride it this year.  I missed the last runs of the real Zephyr, and shall not miss this one.  I personally think we are making a big mistake not getting our passenger trains up to the quality and speed of 1950.  Other countries are apparently well beyond that standard.

Of course, to a rail freak, who cares if average speeds are in the 30s?  You can see more, for longer!

BNSF doesn't necessarily want to close the line for the reasons you cite.  Otherwise, it would have been gone a long time ago after the York Canyon coal trains disappeared.  The line generates no revenue, it's just a bridge.  It is just too expensive to maintain on their own for just Amtrak and those maybes.  They want the states to cost share with them not pay the full ticket and I think it's fair.

Part of the change would mean an end to the famous, historic, and scenic ride over Raton Pass. Was one of the most famous Passes on the Santa Fe line (the Pass runs between Trinidad CO and Raton NM). Back in the day there were helper stations in both locations.

I was in Raton last summer and was told that the only thing running on the Pass right now is the Amtrak SW Chief. Most all freights began traveling via the other route a number of years ago. There probably was a determination that too much fuel was burned going over the Pass with the freights.

The possible route change would also mean the end of passenger train travel to the famous Philmont Boy Scout Ranch near Cimarron, NM, used by thousands of scouts traveling there from all over the country each year. That would be a shame.

It's an election year.

I am writing this from York which my wife and I got to on the Southwest Chief and the Capital Limited.  I've been following this issue for a couple of years now as NM, CO and KS go back and forth (politically) as to whether to offer the funding needed by BNSF.  So as a regular rider of this train, if it means a less scenic and historic route to ensure the train keeps running we will accept that.

Not sure that's a good plan. It's a slippery slope. In a few years, the BNSF may then want the states to pony up money to keep the revised route open. Then what? Shut down the SW Chief entirely?

The "revised route" is in fact the main "TRANSCON", as BNSF referred to their main line from Chicago to Long Beach. I wouldn't be too concerned about states have to fund THAT.

  "The line generates no revenue" Is a misstatement by someone who knows nothing about SW Kansas or Eastern Colorado. SW Kansas is home to three packing plants(tallow, hides, beef), box plant, several grain loading facilities, wind turbine unloading, ethanol plants.

And this route could also be a relief route using it and the Joint Line, a relief route for Devver to Chicago and/or Kansas City.

BNSF better look what happened to the UP route between San Antonio and San Antonio TX.  The first took out the MKT trackage, then, do to the traffic, put it back in.  I would think it is cheaper to keep trackage up than to take it out, then put it back in.

Many of the folks on the Forum may not be familiar with the territory.  I do not know of any move by BNSF to abandon the line east of La Junta (where the busy line from Denver joins the northern transcon and sends traffic east).  And, yes, you're right that there is on-line business east of La Junta.  I believe they were referring to the line west of La Junta and east of Albuquerque.

Between La Junta and Trinidad, there's nothing but sagebrush and withered settlements.  Then, from Trinidad to Albuquerque, there is no freight business.  Trinidad is on the former BN, so it does not need the northern transcon for what freight business there is.

The only thing the northern transcon between Trinidad and Albuquerque has to offer is scenery and nostalgia.  It is a very undesirable route for freight, even as a relief route (and there are other alternatives if there should be a major disruption to the southern transcon).  I'll be very sad to see the line torn up, but I can't make any realistic argument in favor of keeping it in operation.

Correct,

The proposed abandonment is between Albuquerque and La Junta.

I took a vacation on the Southwest Limited to the Grand Canyon about 15 years ago, and I was amazed at the desolation on that part of the railroad.  It was a beautiful ride over Raton, but if there is no economic reason for the line to be there, then unless a bunch of Colorado, New Mexico, and Kansas taxpayers want to pay for it, it should rightfully be "bye bye railroad".  The BNSF sure will not miss it.

I'm sure that both you and Hot Water remember when they started hauling coal out of York Canyon.  That gave the line a lease on life......................for a while.  I don't remember when they tore out the rails up going to York Canyon, but I don't think anybody is going to be hauling coal out of there any time in my lifetime (or my kids).

So, what the heck is left that justifies the railroad?  I doubt that there is enough business there to even entice a short line operator to take it over.   As far as the remaining people that want passenger rail service?   The cost effective way to address that need if public transportation is required is called a bus.   

Regards,

GNNPNUT

This is not really new....maybe closer to becoming fact than threat....but not new.

I'd very much hate to lose Raton and other stops.....having riden just last year and many times beofe that going back to 1960. You can read my spin on the SWC at the links below. Hope for the best.....

If you look at old schedules, you will see that a train can run on the Transcon, head to Albuquerque from Belen, and still maintain about the same running time as the S.W. Chief does.

Lee Carlson

........ As far as the remaining people that want passenger rail service?   The cost effective way to address that need if public transportation is required is called a bus.   

 

Well, when my sons and I were at Philmont Scout Ranch near Cimarron NM several years ago, we did the hike with a troop from Albany NY. They all traveled via Amtrak. Albany is over 1900 miles from Cimarron, NM. That would be over 2800 miles travelling on a bus, night and day. Not an appealing prospect!

Originally Posted by gnnpnut:

........ As far as the remaining people that want passenger rail service?   The cost effective way to address that need if public transportation is required is called a bus.   

 

Well, when my sons and I were at Philmont Scout Ranch near Cimarron NM several years ago, we did the hike with a troop from Albany NY. They all traveled via Amtrak. Albany is over 1900 miles from Cimarron, NM. That would be over 2800 miles travelling on a bus, night and day. Not an appealing prospect!

 

 

Nothing stops that scout troop from Albany from taking the train from Albany, and then taking a bus (chartered) from the closest available station.

Originally Posted by breezinup:

Originally Posted by gnnpnut:

........ As far as the remaining people that want passenger rail service?   The cost effective way to address that need if public transportation is required is called a bus.   

 

Well, when my sons and I were at Philmont Scout Ranch near Cimarron NM several years ago, we did the hike with a troop from Albany NY. They all traveled via Amtrak. Albany is over 1900 miles from Cimarron, NM. That would be over 2800 miles travelling on a bus, night and day. Not an appealing prospect!

 

 

Nothing stops that scout troop from Albany from taking the train from Albany, and then taking a bus (chartered) from the closest available station.

People who don't live in this area, or don't know what they are talking about should stick to their own knitting

Originally Posted by gnnpnut:

Originally Posted by breezinup:

Originally Posted by gnnpnut:

........ As far as the remaining people that want passenger rail service?   The cost effective way to address that need if public transportation is required is called a bus.   

 

Well, when my sons and I were at Philmont Scout Ranch near Cimarron NM several years ago, we did the hike with a troop from Albany NY. They all traveled via Amtrak. Albany is over 1900 miles from Cimarron, NM. That would be over 2800 miles travelling on a bus, night and day. Not an appealing prospect!

 

 

Nothing stops that scout troop from Albany from taking the train from Albany, and then taking a bus (chartered) from the closest available station.

People who don't live in this area, or don't know what they are talking about should stick to their own knitting

Having lived in New Mexico for several years (it's still my favorite state) taking the train to Belen and then a bus to Las Vegas NM is a reasonable alternative and about a 2 hour bus trip. And there are many charter bus companies in the area running people to casinos that would love the extra business.  And it would be a forgone conclusion Amtrak would run Busses from Belen to Albuquerque and Santa Fe like they already do to all sorts of places.

Originally Posted by gnnpnut:

Originally Posted by breezinup:

Originally Posted by gnnpnut:

........ As far as the remaining people that want passenger rail service?   The cost effective way to address that need if public transportation is required is called a bus.   

 

Well, when my sons and I were at Philmont Scout Ranch near Cimarron NM several years ago, we did the hike with a troop from Albany NY. They all traveled via Amtrak. Albany is over 1900 miles from Cimarron, NM. That would be over 2800 miles travelling on a bus, night and day. Not an appealing prospect!

 

 

Nothing stops that scout troop from Albany from taking the train from Albany, and then taking a bus (chartered) from the closest available station.

People who don't live in this area, or don't know what they are talking about should stick to their own knitting

• I wasn't aware that I had to trot out my resume (or C.V. if you prefer) to render an opinion as to whether or not passenger service should continue on a segment of line.  Since you seem to have a problem with my take on things, go up and read the opinions of a PROFESSIONAL RAILROADER who retired from the Santa Fe; the line is not economically justified.  
• You are correct, I do NOT live in the area, but I do pay federal taxes.  And since this article is talking about the expenditure of $200 million dollars of federal money, I most certainly am going to render an opinion on something that I feel is economically unjustified.  Don't like my opinion, too bad, exercise your displeasure at the voting booth. 

Guess what I pay taxes also, I don't know the area either. Sure sounds like a good opportunity for Amtrak to improve travel times and to stay out of the way of freight traffic. Also I don't like subsidizing of high profit private business of which freight railroads  are one.

Clem  

Yes, the freight railroads are really the only transportation mode which pay total property taxes on their ROW.  Amtrak is NOTHING compared to what the trucking, boating, and air industries DO NOT PAY for property taxes.  In fact, these "free enterprises" get a ROW mostly paid by everybody else!  

I mean.  could any truck, water, or air company survive if they had to maintain their own ROW, or pay taxes on it?  

The intermodal terminal in NW Ohio was subsidized with federal money. Then the railroad imported the container cranes for the operation. tax dollars also went to making the tunnels larger on a eastern railroad from the coast to midwest. Said it would take traffic off the interstate.  read this in a ohio paper and a railroad magazine. 

Just what I read

Clem

Just my opinion, but I don't believe any of that!

Good afternoon

Of the 842 million for the  project. The railroad paid 400 million, the rest was from Federal and State, and somewhere else because the numbers don't add up.

Information was in newspaper article. 

Clem