sunset announces the D&RGW L-105

Hot Water posted:

BobbyD posted:

Christopher Cinque posted:  

There are some great photos here, thanks for posting this.  Curiously, L-105 #3700 is shown in-service without the “box” on the front pilot.  While I’m not very knowledgeable about this engine, there appears to be two sand domes for their respective engines on the boiler so what is the box on the pilot, another supplemental sand box?  Why was it missing in the photo? Tia

Isn't that a water brake? Recall reading something about it long ago.

No, that "box" is not the "Water Brake".

Thanks for another smart aleck post. Please inform us what it is then.

BobbyD posted:

Hot Water posted:

BobbyD posted:

Christopher Cinque posted:  

There are some great photos here, thanks for posting this.  Curiously, L-105 #3700 is shown in-service without the “box” on the front pilot.  While I’m not very knowledgeable about this engine, there appears to be two sand domes for their respective engines on the boiler so what is the box on the pilot, another supplemental sand box?  Why was it missing in the photo? Tia

Isn't that a water brake? Recall reading something about it long ago.

No, that "box" is not the "Water Brake".

Thanks for another smart aleck post. Please inform us what it is then.

BobbyD, there was nothing "smart aleck" about Hot water's post.  He simply stated a fact and answered the question.  Your post on the other hand ..........

mark s posted:

That is an additional sand container on the pilot deck. The reason that some photos of L105's appear w/o the container is that the Grande added them perhaps a year after delivery of the locomotives. Some of the L131/132's also received the additional sand container on the pilot deck a number of years after going into service. The water brake apparatus would be seen on the cylinders.

Gentleman,

This was posted here yesterday, a very succinct and accurate piece of information.  Thanks Mark!  Btw, if it’s not too much trouble, how does a “Water brake” work?  D&RGW is the only Class 1 road I ever heard that used them.  

Chris

Christopher Cinque posted:

mark s posted:

That is an additional sand container on the pilot deck. The reason that some photos of L105's appear w/o the container is that the Grande added them perhaps a year after delivery of the locomotives. Some of the L131/132's also received the additional sand container on the pilot deck a number of years after going into service. The water brake apparatus would be seen on the cylinders.

Gentleman,

This was posted this yesterday, a very succinct and accurate piece of information.  Thanks Mark!  Btw, if it’s not too much trouble, how does a “Water brake” work?  D&RGW is the only Class 1 road I ever heard that used them.  

Chris

In simple terms, the Engineer has a small valve within his reach, so that he can induce clean boiler water into the valves/cylinders, after the throttle has been closed down. With the reverse gear centered, and the cylinder cocks open, a small amount of boiler water is induced into the steam flow to the cylinders, then the reverse gear is slowly moved toward the reverse position, from centered. The effect of the boiler water flashing to steam within the cylinders, produces a substantial retarding affect on the train, and if more retarding affect is desired, the Engineer moves the reverse gear a little more towards full reverse, until the desired slow speed is maintained on the speed down grade.

The Santa Fe also experimented with the French designed water brake (can't find the exact spelling of the French name), but the complaint was two fold; 1) it tended to wash the lubrication out of the cylinders, and 2) successful operation was HIGHLY DEPENDENT on the skill of the Engineer. The D&RGW, being a much small railroad than the Santa Fe, did have highly skilled Engineers in its mountain divisions, and thus was much more able to properly train Engineers on the use of the water brake. That, plus the development of the Nathan Mechanical Lubricators continued to supply steam oil (valve oil) regardless of whether the throttle was open or not.  

Edit: Found the spelling of the Le Chatelier water brake, from about 1888

Thanks for that detailed explanation, sounds like a miniaturized and controlled boiler explosion put to good use.

Chris

Christopher Cinque posted:

Thanks for that detailed explanation, sounds like a miniaturized and controlled boiler explosion.  

Chris

No.

Hey Hot:

Do you have any knowledge as to how light engines descended grades before the advent of engine brakes and (likely) before the above "water brake"? I'm talking like Donner Pass in the late 1860s, that sort of time frame.

I "think" my understanding is the Engineer's would use the Johnson bar in the reverse position (if descending in the forward direction) and would feed a bit of steam into cylinders as needed. Sound right?

(A fellow friend that's also into early railroading and I have discussed this.)

Thanks.

Andre

laming posted:

Hey Hot:

Do you have any knowledge as to how light engines descended grades before the advent of engine brakes and (likely) before the above "water brake"? I'm talking like Donner Pass in the late 1860s, that sort of time frame.

I "think" my understanding is the Engineer's would use the Johnson bar in the reverse position (if descending in the forward direction) and would feed a bit of steam into cylinders as needed. Sound right?

That is my understanding also. Prior to air brakes, they did have the "steam jam" which applied brake shoes to the wheels on locomotives only.

(A fellow friend that's also into early railroading and I have discussed this.)

Thanks.

Andre

Thanks for lending credulity to what my friend and I think about light engines vs descending grades.

What I've understood regarding the the early years of steam jams and driver brakes: Using them when running light on a long descent was risky on account of heating up the thin (at the time) driver tires to the point they COULD expand to be loose enough on the wheel to become an issue!

Amazing how they railroaded "back then".

All fer now.

Andre

laming posted:

Thanks for lending credulity to what my friend and I think about light engines vs descending grades.

What I've understood regarding the the early years of steam jams and driver brakes: Using them when running light on a long descent was risky on account of heating up the thin (at the time) driver tires to the point they COULD expand to be loose enough on the wheel to become an issue!

Correct, and the same applies today, i.e. DO NOT use the independent (engine brake) for very long. To this day, the C&TS narrow gauge (former D&RGW) Engineers use the reverse gear to defend their super steep (4%?) grades. 

Amazing how they railroaded "back then".

You got that right!

All fer now.

Andre

Didn't D&RGW narrow gauge locomotives also employ the water brake?  Comparable grades - 3-4%, as the std gauge mainlines.

Hot Water posted:

Christopher Cinque posted:

Thanks for that detailed explanation, sounds like a miniaturized and controlled boiler explosion.  

Chris

No.

Hot Water-

Your comment “...boiler water flashing to steam within the cylinders...” sounds just like what happens in the boiler after a crown sheet failure.  Could you please explain why I am wrong?

Thanks,

Chris

Christopher Cinque posted:

Hot Water posted:

Christopher Cinque posted:

Thanks for that detailed explanation, sounds like a miniaturized and controlled boiler explosion.  

Chris

No.

Hot Water-

Your comment “...boiler water flashing to steam within the cylinders...” sounds just like what happens in the boiler after a crown sheet failure.  Could you please explain why I am wrong?

Thanks,

Chris

What occurs within the cylinders is a controlled event, i.e. by the Engineer in how little boiler water is introduced into the cylinders. What occurs when a crown sheet ruptures is a totally uncontrolled & catastrophic event. Thus they are completely different.

Mr. Water,

We are both on the same page here.  Apparently I was unable to convey this to you in my crude analogy. 

Thank you,

Chris

Hello All... Been doing some research on the L-105s, and seams the tenth locomotive, was equipped with a Worthington feedwater heater, and used exclusively for Passenger service, at first. Here's a shot of her Broadside...

Question about the L-105s... According to Key Imports... ALL L-105s received Overfire Jets post-war in 1947...  

My Question is the following: Were some L-105s still sporting the green boiler when the overfire jets were added in 1947? 

Reason being is, I see a Post War model offered by Key Imports back in the day with the green Boiler... And If that is accurate, I would love to have a Green boiler verizon from Sunset, with Overfire jets, and Flying Rio Grande. 

If not, i think I may need to change my order to the black version with overfire jets and get it repainted... 

Check out the Overfire Jets on that Green Boiler! 

Folks,

Here's a little video I put together showing the L-105 design process. I hope you enjoy it, and then order one...

DESIGNING THE L-105 in 3D

The design is done and production will begin in December finishing early next year. We only make them to the reservations, so if you wait to see one in the flesh, you might be too late.

Reserve your L-105 at: http://www.3rdrail.com/reservation.html#L105

VintageClassics posted:

Question about the L-105s... According to Key Imports... ALL L-105s received Overfire Jets post-war in 1947...  

My Question is the following: Were some L-105s still sporting the green boiler when the overfire jets were added in 1947? 

Reason being is, I see a Post War model offered by Key Imports back in the day with the green Boiler... And If that is accurate, I would love to have a Green boiler verizon from Sunset, with Overfire jets, and Flying Rio Grande. 

If not, i think I may need to change my order to the black version with overfire jets and get it repainted... 

Check out the Overfire Jets on that Green Boiler! 

 

My research suggests that all L-105’s were gradually transitioned to black during the war as they went in for major maintenance.  Did some escape?  It’s possible but not likely.  The chances that any were still green after over-fire jets were installed in ‘48 is even less likely but not impossible.  There’s a very good article on Utah Rails that you may want to read.  I’m sorry to say but your question (Mine too) will probably never be definitively answered as the necessary documentation just doesn’t seem to be out there.  Nice model BTW.

http://utahrails.net/drgw/drgw-green-boilers.php 

PRR 5841 posted:

VintageClassics posted:

Question about the L-105s... According to Key Imports... ALL L-105s received Overfire Jets post-war in 1947...  

My Question is the following: Were some L-105s still sporting the green boiler when the overfire jets were added in 1947? 

Reason being is, I see a Post War model offered by Key Imports back in the day with the green Boiler... And If that is accurate, I would love to have a Green boiler verizon from Sunset, with Overfire jets, and Flying Rio Grande. 

If not, i think I may need to change my order to the black version with overfire jets and get it repainted... 

Check out the Overfire Jets on that Green Boiler! 

 

My research suggests that all L-105’s were gradually transitioned to black during the war as they went in for major maintenance.  Did some escape?  It’s possible but not likely.  The chances that any were still green after over-fire jets were installed in ‘48 is even less likely but not impossible.  There’s a very good article on Utah Rails that you may want to read.  I’m sorry to say but your question (Mine too) will probably never be definitively answered as the necessary documentation just doesn’t seem to be out there.  Nice model BTW.

http://utahrails.net/drgw/drgw-green-boilers.php 

Hello! Thanks for the kind words! I'm very familiar with that article. Keith Williams states an interesting fact, " While there are post-WWII photos of D&RGW locos with green boiler jackets I question whether it was applied after the war."

Being as 1948 is only a few years afterwards, its entirely possible to have green boilered engines. A key note is a brand new 1800 class 4-8-4 that STILL HAD its green boiler jacket as late as 1949, and here is my source from the article above that we both are using for our research:

Also

Dennis O'Berry wrote in April 2001:

I knew an individual that rode trains keeping a journal of engine numbers and paint schemes - never took any photos.

He recorded a 1400 in Salt Lake City (1922) with a green boiler and red Roof and a C-48 (1148 - I think) green and red at Leadville in 1927. Never saw that combination on the narrow gauge himself. Latest I've seen was a 1949 movie Perry Jenkins shot at Alamosa (I think) of a 3600 with a green boiler.

If a 3600 class 2-8-8-2 still had a green boiler in 1949, then it's definitely within the realm of possibility that some 3700's were still green.

Can anyone truly prove they were not? But I totally agree, and it's too bad we won't know for certain, that we'll never truly know the answer to this research question.

I would like to point out that David Devida over at Key has been very reliable in accuracy of their models... I would believe that they may have had access, at that time, to sources and data that would indicate that some late L-105s still had green boilers in late 40s... Maybe #3703 still had a green boiler when she blew up in the 50s. Hopefully one day some color pictures come up to help, and possibly some old Employee that worked on the Rio Grande  can shed light on this matter.

Thanks for the compliment btw... and I AM VERY EXCITED that Scott is doing a 6th Version with Green boiler and overfire jets...

http://www.3rdrail.com/reservation.html#L105

hope he does #3703 in that scheme... David

are these photo,s copyrighted posed wit permission ???????

BH

David,

The answers we’re all looking for are probably on someone’s vacation 8mm movies, slides or photos collecting dust on a shelf somewhere.  Does “Morning Sun” have anything to contribute here?  Btw, Sunset now has 7 versions.  

PRR 5841 posted:

David,

The answers we’re all looking for are probably on someone’s vacation 8mm movies, slides or photos collecting dust on a shelf somewhere.  Does “Morning Sun” have anything to contribute here?  Btw, Sunset now has 7 versions.  

Hello PRR 5841,

You've hit the nail on the head! I believe that wholeheartedly... Somebody has the info, somewhere...

SO cool about the 7 versions!

So here’s a question. Is version 2 with the green boiler, rising sun sandbox, & overfire jets correct? Seems based on reading through this thread that it should not have the jets. I reserved this version a long time ago before the jet details were added to the design. 

thanks guys.

Overfire jets were added in 1947 (per smoke abatement legislation in Salt Lake City, UT) and the rising sun motif vanished immediately following Pearl Harbor (12-07-41).

Any day now, everyone! Woot woot!

If you reserved one, make room on the CC and display case now.

A little Rio Grande for today!  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MDnO2cieEjA

This morning I prepared all the 2R and 3R Domestic Shipping. They will depart Friday. We a few left in 3 Rail. Please see our web site for details and ordering.

Again, thank you all for your amazing support during this difficult time for many.

http://www.3rdrail.com/instock.html

Scott, thank you for all of your hard work on this project. I look forward to receiving my 2-rail version!

Looks as good as my Key Rio Grande L105 done some 15+ years ago!     Enjoy, all !!

Flying Grande Chevron with green boiler for me! Can't wait! Dusting off my Pullman heavyweights as I type!

Mine will be flying Rio Grande, black boiler, chevrons -- in freight service.

I’d be nice to see all the versions! Please post when you get yours!

Does anyone know what type of whistles these engines had? I've always wondered that but could never find a straight answer.

Pics anyone?

Sweet!

Best shipping method in the business.

Out of the box...

Santiago, beautiful I missed this not order one I wish I had. This is a great locomotive very detailed, sunset do better and better hope to find one some day

Has anyone installed the 4 running boards that are located next to the running gear?  I did....quite a chore for me but the visual effect is outstanding.

Steve