It appears to me that many here are missing the whole point of Menards' sales model. Obviously, they are not trying to cater to the well established (and financially able) modeler and collector. Their market is the beginners, middle-of-the-road small to medium layout owners and families that want to pass on a fun time to their children and grandchildren. These groups are not looking to spend thousands of dollars on one item. Nor on several items to start, enlarge or maintain the Christmas layout. Menards offers an experience that has been lost on the big model (toy) railroad companies in the past few decades. They are offering fun. The 5 year olds care nothing about prototype features. They just want to see Grandpa's or Daddy's trains run. Those kids may lose interest quickly. Or they may want to go bigger. They may want to study the trains of days gone by. But they first need to be given the chance, the experience, to understand that history. They haven't grown up seeing a steam engine or 70 year old diesels pulling real trains. Those days are gone. Now only kept alive by the memories of the older hobbyists, who are dwindling in number. The high end prototypical models of these trains may look awesome on a large club or commercial layout, but today's kids aren't going to run these on the 4' x 8' at home, if they even have the space for that size layout. So relish in the joy that the manufacturers who once introduced us all to this hobby now produce high end items that are prototypical, even if they are far outside the price range of the average household budget. They found their limited market in the lucky modelers who enjoyed that first train set they received for Christmas years ago. Lucky enough to grow that meager offering into an Empire that many others can only wish for. If we want model railroading to continue for new generations, we must understand that, in today's economy, a family may be willing to spend $100 on 4 train cars. But they will hesitate at spending that same $100 on only one car. Or spend $150 for an engine to pull those cars when they can't afford the $750 price tag on the engine that offers all the "bells and whistles" (and then some). Plus buying the control systems required to operate all those features. Enjoy what you can, for as long as you can. Pass the knowledge down. Pass the fun down. Life is short and none of us will be here forever.
@IRON HORSE posted:The one I have runs and sounds good. How is someone spending $150 (with 11% rebate) on a command engine a sucker? Yes, it has nylon gears, non-precision spun wheels, shiny trucks and non-prototypical design. It may not be around for me to hand it down a generation. But it's a hundred and fifty dollars. Let me say it again. It's one hundred and fifty dollars. You can easily spend that much on a nice steak dinner with your wife these days.
Are we suckers for buying our premium engines at their high costs? For their prices they ought to be perfect in every category. Unfortunately, sometimes they are not.
I think the engines themselves are fine for the target audience, some who are on this forum. Many of us also NOT their target audience.
That being said, I think the term "Beta" is where it could be perceived as "sucking people in" to get what they think might have value based on it's limited availability. I see some guys buying these that would normally scoff and look the other way if introduced strictly as a production model but the "gotta have it" collector attitude kicks in because it is advertised as "Beta". Collect all 4.5 of them!
Menards is definitely offering a decent product aimed at the starting hobbyist or toy that will get a lot of use and doesn't cost a lot of money. There is definitely a market. I certainly think its a good alternative for the higher costs that Lionel and MTH charge especially for someone who isn't all in. They also make some great add-ons and building even the most season hobbyist enjoy.
I've said it in a previous post, what more could be done in this unit for as simplistic as it is to require 4.5 beta version releases? Seems excessive to me but again at least they are trying. I truly hope they are taking all the comments that are constructive and applying them so someday we get the production models.
Menard's trains get a lot of reactions. "Cool", "Cool, but", and "Brilliant Idea".
$ 150.00 command locomotives are cool. Proprietary command control system is "cool, but".
M & M boxcars are cool. Trucks that break or derail are "cool, but".
A 4.5 VDC wall wart power supply is "cool, but" until you incorporate it into a layout. Then it becomes "brilliant idea".
Critical reactions come from people who live with trains. Cars that derail get shelved or retrucked. Proprietary command control F7s go on the shelf while the Lionel F3s are regular runners.
@cbq9911a posted:Menard's trains get a lot of reactions. "Cool", "Cool, but", and "Brilliant Idea".
$ 150.00 command locomotives are cool. Proprietary command control system is "cool, but".
M & M boxcars are cool. Trucks that break or derail are "cool, but".
A 4.5 VDC wall wart power supply is "cool, but" until you incorporate it into a layout. Then it becomes "brilliant idea".
Critical reactions come from people who live with trains. Cars that derail get shelved or retrucked. Proprietary command control F7s go on the shelf while the Lionel F3s are regular runners.
and if its made by lionel , you love it?
@IRON HORSE posted:Are we suckers for buying our premium engines at their high costs? For their prices they ought to be perfect in every category. Unfortunately, sometimes they are not.
Very, very well said.
@breezinup posted:I'm thinking of boosting sales by changing the wording on my ads to say "This item has stuff wrong with it, but won't it be fun to spend your time figuring out what isn't working right?
You do realize that this is already what you get, in the minds of too many people, with the top-of-the-line scale stuff presently sold by the old-line manufacturers, but at a much higher price point?
I'm with @IRON HORSE on this one. Who's really the sucker?
If I'm a tinkerer at heart neither is a problem for me. If instead I expect perfection they both fail miserably.
Mike
@Bob Dunn posted:It appears to me that many here are missing the whole point of Menards' sales model. Obviously, they are not trying to cater to the well established (and financially able) modeler and collector. Their market is the beginners, middle-of-the-road small to medium layout owners and families that want to pass on a fun time to their children and grandchildren. These groups are not looking to spend thousands of dollars on one item. Nor on several items to start, enlarge or maintain the Christmas layout. Menards offers an experience that has been lost on the big model (toy) railroad companies in the past few decades. They are offering fun. The 5 year olds care nothing about prototype features. They just want to see Grandpa's or Daddy's trains run. Those kids may lose interest quickly. Or they may want to go bigger. They may want to study the trains of days gone by. But they first need to be given the chance, the experience, to understand that history. They haven't grown up seeing a steam engine or 70 year old diesels pulling real trains. Those days are gone. Now only kept alive by the memories of the older hobbyists, who are dwindling in number. The high end prototypical models of these trains may look awesome on a large club or commercial layout, but today's kids aren't going to run these on the 4' x 8' at home, if they even have the space for that size layout. So relish in the joy that the manufacturers who once introduced us all to this hobby now produce high end items that are prototypical, even if they are far outside the price range of the average household budget. They found their limited market in the lucky modelers who enjoyed that first train set they received for Christmas years ago. Lucky enough to grow that meager offering into an Empire that many others can only wish for. If we want model railroading to continue for new generations, we must understand that, in today's economy, a family may be willing to spend $100 on 4 train cars. But they will hesitate at spending that same $100 on only one car. Or spend $150 for an engine to pull those cars when they can't afford the $750 price tag on the engine that offers all the "bells and whistles" (and then some). Plus buying the control systems required to operate all those features. Enjoy what you can, for as long as you can. Pass the knowledge down. Pass the fun down. Life is short and none of us will be here forever.
Perfectly said. Menards needs to call them Toy Trains modeled after whatever. Shut up the rivet counters who have forgot they started as kids ( just ) playing with trains. JMHO 
If you want to spend 2K on a engine so you can show you can, Fine with me, I want to run trains with the grand kids and not have the big one if it falls off the table. I posted a post of what I thought was a perfect consist for these engines and the Mods moved it to a place no one will ever see it, Why? beats me. But with that in mind I should think as this forum is called :
3-Rail Traditional Toy Trains
Then anyone that puts the word protypical into a post should have it moved to a place where the rivet counters can argue with themselves.
Nuf said.
@KRM posted:If you want to spend 2K on a engine so you can show you can, Fine with me, I want to run trains with the grand kids and not have the big one if it falls off the table.
I’ve got no quarrel with Menard’s… but can’t you have fun with the oodles and oodles and oodles of postwar and MPC that is out there for sale?
I guarantee a postwar engine will survive a fall… the Menard’s stuff? I doubt it.
@MartyE posted:I think the engines themselves are fine for the target audience, some who are on this forum. Many of us also NOT their target audience.
Marty, I always seem to agree with you, philosophically, and would love to meet you in person some time and talk trains. “Beta” seems to be the point of debate: Is it a marketing ploy or a real test production? Who is the target audience, then? It appears it is not just newbies to the hobby.
rplsy8, yes, postwar might be better built and more reliable but they don't have sounds, a remote and engine talk. THAT'S groundbreaking stuff at this price point.
To be honest, I find it odd that I’m actually buying Menards' engines because I have starter sets from both Lionel and MTH I bought nearly 30 years ago that I have no interest in anymore and intend to sell at some point. They sit below the layout not being used. Perhaps it is the innovation at this price point that has caught the attention of some of us who have been into trains for a long time. It was suggested on another topic (I think by Alan or Richard) that Menards should have its own section on the forum. That time has probably arrived.
BTW, that oil pump just announced from Menards is pretty cool, don't you think?
Mike
And, as predicted, these are hitting the Ebay marketplace! At far above the original price! Menards wants to get these into the hands of people who will actually run them and give feedback to improve upon the product. Unfortunately, many will just end up on collectors shelves, "Mint, in original box".
@KRM posted:Perfectly said. Menards needs to call them Toy Trains modeled after whatever. Shut up the rivet counters who have forgot they started as kids ( just ) playing with trains. JMHO
3-Rail Traditional Toy Trains
Then anyone that puts the word protypical into a post should have it moved to a place where the rivet counters can argue with themselves.
Nuf said.
Odd how its been the 3 rail guys complaining haven't heard much from the 2 rail guys. so what rivet counters?
@KRM posted:Perfectly said. Menards needs to call them Toy Trains modeled after whatever. Shut up the rivet counters who have forgot they started as kids ( just ) playing with trains. JMHO
3-Rail Traditional Toy Trains
Then anyone that puts the word protypical into a post should have it moved to a place where the rivet counters can argue with themselves.
Nuf said.
All of this aside.... no argument. My BEEF is the endless string "Beta" versions... all in Santa Fe, and all sold my a means that offers no fair shake to ALL WHO ARE INTERESTED IN BUYING ONE. This has gone on far too long now and Menards really needs to get the show on the road and move forward.
As a former product strategist, I have difficulty understanding the Menard's engine offerings. The employed technology is older and nowhere as capable as Legacy, LionChief2.0 or Blunami. Yet, each offering has sold out immediately. Perhaps it's just curiosity on the part of us modelers. Does anyone share my viewpoint or have a similar curiosity?
@BOB WALKER posted:As a former product strategist, I have difficulty understanding the Menard's engine offerings. The employed technology is older and nowhere as capable as Legacy, LionChief2.0 or Blunami. Yet, each offering has sold out immediately. Perhaps it's just curiosity on the part of us modelers. Does anyone share my viewpoint or have a similar curiosity?
Bob,
It's not about the technology, and there's a reason. Technology can't be important at the price point Menards is targeting. It's just too expensive to put in an entry-level locomotive.
Perhaps you're assuming that everyone in this hobby is addicted to that technology, and that no one can live without it?
But clearly that's not the case. We have plenty of comments on the forum from people who post here on a regular basis with a strong bias against electronics and controls technologies. In addition many of those who aren't avidly against them are usually willing to consider at least a few less-sophisticated alternatives in addition to their complex command control locomotives.
It appears that both of these groups are weighing in here, and voting with their pocketbooks.
Mike
@BOB WALKER posted:As a former product strategist, I have difficulty understanding the Menard's engine offerings. The employed technology is older and nowhere as capable as Legacy, LionChief2.0 or Blunami. Yet, each offering has sold out immediately. Perhaps it's just curiosity on the part of us modelers. Does anyone share my viewpoint or have a similar curiosity?
Could it be that there is no other source for an EMD FP7 shell and this is where people are getting “project” engines?
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:It's not about the technology, and there's a reason. Technology can't be important at the price point Menards is targeting. It's just too expensive to put in an entry-level locomotive.
I’m not following… its remote controlled and has sound.
Mike: You've made a good point. I have been intrigued by technology since I was 12 and it has carried over into my train modeling interests and activities. Oddly enough, my layout is fully wired for conventional which I do operate occasionally.
An open question with the Menard's engine is one of marketing strategy. Continuing to denote successive offerings as "beta" units, yet offering no system for user feedback does seem a bit strange. Beta testing is a critical step in product development prior to market introduction.
Using the term beta as a market strategy is a bit unusual which is what triggered my commentary.
I'm also a bet befuddled with all the "beta" releases, it's pretty unusual to have a bunch of "beta" releases. Usually, there are one or more "alpha" releases, and the final wrap before production is a "beta" release that should be what they expect to go to production with. The numerous beta releases don't seem to be making any headway to a production release.
They could call the other releases by other Greek letters.
Perhaps the finished version would be the Omega version.
Andrew
@falconservice posted:They could call the other releases by other Greek letters.
Perhaps the finished version would be the Omega version.
Or they could just get off the pot and do a production run, If they haven't gotten the bugs out with half a dozen beta versions, no reason to think more beta versions are going to help!
Aside from the ongoing beta titled releases, what is the rationale behind the offering of a simple RC minimally featured engine? Low cost by itself could be the answer, but there are already a number of available and reasonably priced engines. Perhaps Menard's assumed that their success with rolling stock would carry over to motive power as well and needed to start somewhere.
@Michael Hokkanen posted:Just rename your railroad "The Guinea Pig and Southern"....
Then you could run "The GPS Route"!
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Or they could just get off the pot and do a production run, If they haven't gotten the bugs out with half a dozen beta versions, no reason to think more beta versions are going to help!
Stay tuned as they say.... production units and new products are going to be announced very soon.
To my surprise, I got one of these. Checked it out with a short run on my test track, made some notes, packed it away with my other trains pending completion of a new train room. No papers in the box. Is there some specific place to send their requested owner comments?
@jlm posted:To my surprise, I got one of these. Checked it out with a short run on my test track, made some notes, packed it away with my other trains pending completion of a new train room. No papers in the box. Is there some specific place to send their requested owner comments?
Please email your thoughts and feedback to Ray at Guest@menard-inc.com
@cabinet Bob posted:Stay tuned as they say.... production units and new products are going to be announced very soon.
Looking forward to other road names.
@cabinet Bob posted:Stay tuned as they say.... production units and new products are going to be announced very soon.
@Jim R. posted:Looking forward to other road names.
Other road names and hopefully other engine types.🤞🤞😉
I just got one of these yesterday. Most of the Beta versions were sold out by the time I saw them or figured I really didn't need one. But the Bluebonnet just caught my attention & made me take a chance & was able to get one. I haven't run it yet but it is a nice looking locomotive. There are a couple very small areas on both sides where there is blue over spray on the silver at the front edge of the side grilles and above the front trucks. But not a deal breaker on a $150 locomotive.
Does anyone know if all these engines use 1 remote?
Can you operate 2 at once independently? (Like a Blue Santa Fe and a Red one at the same time?)
Thanks
@KRM reported that the Red and Blue Beta 4.5 are controlled independently with their respective remotes, implying running at the same time. Here’s a link to that reply:
@SteveH posted:@KRM reported that the Red and Blue Beta 4.5 are controlled independently with their respective remotes, implying running at the same time. Here’s a link to that reply:
Thank you, had an earlier version (3.5?) and gave it to a youngster. I recall one remote ran them all so you could only operate one engine at a time even if you acquired two. Wonder if these are now finally individually controlled.
Saw it mentioned no instructions?
@SteveH posted:@KRM reported that the Red and Blue Beta 4.5 are controlled independently with their respective remotes, implying running at the same time. Here’s a link to that reply:
In another venue, one customer received a remote for the red beta and the engine was a blue beta. True to your statement, that didn't work. He's still trying to get the right remote from Menard's.
I am one of those low budget hobbyist who wants the technology but can not pay for big ticket items on a retiree income. I have liquidated my post war and Modern conventional engines and purchased the Menards Beta 4.5 Blue Bonnett as well as several Lionchief, Lionchief Plus and Lionchief Plus 2.0 diesel and steam engines at York, local shows, and eBay. None over $300 so far. I realize some day the electronics are going to fail and I will have a static display item unlike my Dad's prewar engines that I still run. In the meantime I use them on our club layouts and they perform well with sound and smoke.
I will admit that I am into building layouts and operating without regard to scale or prototype compliance. I agree, the low end products are toys and I am just an overaged kid at heart. Menards is really helping folks get into the hobby just like Marx did when we worn a younger man's clothes.
I'm not one to buy anything sight unseen so they can release beta products till the cows come home, I'm not buying. On another note now that my son is stationed 15 min from a menards I'm certain we will be paying the store a visit.
@PRRick posted:All gone, looks like you'll need to wait until beta 5.0 if you want one 😃
Or 5.5, or 6.0, or 6.5, or etc. etc. etc.
On and on and on it goes, when it stops, nobody knows.
I have no interest in these, but if I did, I'd just skip all these test dummies and wait until Menard's finally gets rid of all the bugs and puts out the finished product.
Don't know what the shortcomings are in all these beta versions, but apparently Menard's thinks they're not ready for prime time, so the replacement betas just keep coming. They're encouraged to do so, it seems, with all the people who seem eager to purchase engines which the manufacturer deems not yet in adequate condition for the market. 
Again for those of you, that trash these units "Dont Buy Them!" ! and For those of you that can do a better job, Buy the company and do it your way! Its that simple.
@Trachris posted:In the meantime I use them on our club layouts and they perform well with sound and smoke.
Which Menard's locomotives had smoke?
None of the Menards has smoke, only the some of the Lionchiefs.
In regards to the use of the term Beta, this may just be a marketing ploy to get attention to a limited run which appears to work. Usually sells out in a day or two. Also Menards is not making a major capital commitment to a large inventory that may not turn over very fast. Anyway, it is cheap from a price point and materials prospective and will not last but so long; however it is affordable to many who can not afford a Legacy or PS2 engine. A good way to get in the hobby without a major cash outlay or maybe to supplement the entry level LionChief set that costs around $400.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Which Menard's locomotives had smoke?
The ones that assumed DC track power and put a capacitor directly across the power input with no diodes or rectifier. 
I received an email a couple hours ago from Menard's and now they have a Union Pacific "Beta 4.5" and dummy & caboose.
I have been looking to pick up one of these but the current paint scheme is a Union Pacific and I already have a nice Williams UP. Might do it anyway, it’s not like I dont have two of anything else. And I would be able to do a good beta review. Having run software beta releases I understand the value of the user feedback Hope this isn’t some marketing scheme I’d be disappointed in Menards if it is
Just started running Menards 4.5 "Beta" Blue Bonnet. After a half hour developed a squeak which I can not tell if coming from rear or front end. took off journals and lubricated the wheel then pulled out the motors to grease the shafts. Ran the engine again and still squeaking in Forward. Does not squeak in Reverse. Took it apart again and regreased it. Not that many moving parts but sure something is going to fail before too long. short of sending this back to Menards does anyone have any ideas.
