switching question

With no runaround at any point on the spur, they can't run the engine at the lead so the cars need to be pushed onto the spur to service the customers. The caboose acts as a place for the conductor to call the stops out to the engineers. Also a lookout at grade crossings.
They would probably start at the furthest point pulling outbound cars and dropping inbound.

For "trailing" point spurs, there is no need for an engine to run around a train to spot a car or cars.  That run around is only necessary for facing point spurs.  This seems like poor editing on the part of Trains magazine.

Chuck

That quote from Trains makes no sense. A Chuck pointed out, there’s no need for anything special to switch cars at trailing point switches.

Made no sense to me, either.  I feel better now...

Thanks, all!

One step further, what do you do when a car needs to be set off into a facing switch/siding?

@wb47 posted:

One step further, what do you do when a car needs to be set off into a facing switch/siding?

Drop it.

Do modern freight switching assignments have enough (3) crew members to do a drop?

One at the throttle, one at the switch, one to brake the car?

I would suspect that the caboose is used as a safe place to ride on extended shove moves.

Interesting thought. Which railroads use a caboose on switching trains these days? It would be a great train-watching experience for those of us who like cabooses.

it makes no sense at all. as Jim said its just used for long shove moves ,where I worked it would have been nice to have a shoving platform for those 2 and 3 mile shoves down a industrial lead or over to another railroad for interchange. shoving platforms are usually old gutted out cabooses. better than hanging on to the side of a car all that way.

So, you're saying that having a caboose makes sense, or it doesn't make sense? And do railroads still use them for that application?

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

So, you're saying that having a caboose makes sense, or it doesn't make sense?

Of course it "makes sense" for those switching jobs that must make long reverse moves. With a caboose, or now currently referred to as a "Shoving Platform", a safe place for a crew person to ride, instead of "hanging on" to the side of a freight car.

And do railroads still use them for that application?

Yes, but they are no longer referred to as a "Caboose", in fact they are all boarded up and the doors are locked, i.e. NOBODY riding inside. For example, BNSF has more than one job working out of Hodgkins, IL with "Shoving Platforms" assigned to such switching and transfer jobs.

When cars have to be shoved for any significant distance, rules require that an employee must ride the leading end of the leading car in the direction of movement, or be stationed on the ground ahead of the movement with a clear view of the intervening track.  Hanging onto the stirrup and grab iron of the leading corner, for the amount of time required for a lengthy movement, causes quite a bit of discomfort, and the second option limits the amount of distance to a few hundred feet.  Riding on the end platforms of tank cars and other cars equipped with them is generally prohibited, because, if the employee falls off, there is risk that he will be run over.

So railroads have come up with several types of "shoving platforms" for an employee to ride and direct the movement by hand and lantern signals, or by radio, when cars are shoved for a distance.  Some are former caboose cars with caboose facilities (toilet, desk, bunk, stove, ice box, lights) not in service.  Some have the windows plated over and the doors welded shut.  The end platform of a caboose is a much safer place to ride than is the end platform of a tank car.  The Conductors and Brakemen had, in their union agreements, requirements for the equipping and supplying of cabooses.  Facilities and personnel to service cabooses are no longer present because of the cost.  Some railroads have been able to come to terms with the unions to use un-serviced caboose cars in the manner I described, and other roads have not.  Thus, some other types of shoving platforms are flatcars with a safety railing welded to the middle of the car, and others have a room to stand in, or a baffle to stand behind, for at least minimal wind and weather protection.  

The equipment  varies a lot, but the point is that a shoving platform is a car that may be safely ridden by the employee at the leading end of a shoving movement.

Just watched this video.  It shows a local with a switcher at each end to allow switching both trailing or facing point switches.  Also shows a caboose that has most of its windows covered over. 

Switching

@wb47 posted:

One step further, what do you do when a car needs to be set off into a facing switch/siding?

Okay, this is different from "What is a shoving platform?"

If the line has no runaround track at the end, then there is really only one way to set out cars at both facing point and trailing point turnouts.  The cars have to be switched out into two groups.  Group 1 will be cars for facing point spurs and Group 2 will be for trailing point spurs.  The engine is placed in the middle with Group 1 ahead of it and Group 2 behind it. Since rules require an employee to ride the leading car in direction of movement, a couple of shoving platforms are required if the distance between stouts or pickups is very long.

Dropping cars is prohibited by modern day operating rules.

So then this scenario would be set up at the last place with a runaround track?  

Yes, but only because it would not be safe to run on any distance on the mainline in the Group 1 - Engine - Group 2 format.

Chuck

A good example of the type of operation the article refers to takes place regularly a few miles from where I live. There's an oil refinery located a couple of miles south of a railyard. The refinery trackage has a couple of tracks branching out from the single track line between the yard and the refinery, but it doesn't include a run-around track. Trains of tank cars run to the refinery with the caboose/shoving platform in the lead, followed by the tank cars, with the engine in the rear pushing. Once it arrives, it switches cars in the refinery, makes the train back up, and runs back to the yard. Since they're now going the opposite direction, the engine is in front and the caboose/shoving platform is in the rear.

Similar to what Ron (CAPPilot) posted above...

The Providence & Worcester Railroad's mainline is very close to my home.  A local freight that works out of the Worcester yard serves a customer in Sutton, MA (Polyvinyl Films-producers of plastic food wrap), delivering covered hoppers loaded with plastic pellets and pulling out the empties.  The Polyvinyl siding has a facing-point switch directly off the mainline.

P&W typically runs this local freight with a locomotive on each end.  I suppose some might say handling it this way may tie up an additional locomotive (I'm not sure if the extra horsepower is actually needed or not), but it sure makes switching this customer very easy!

There is no “extra horsepower” involved. The trailing locomotive is just another car in the train. Evidently the distance is too long for a shove move, and with no run around available, the second locomotive is necessary.

Thanks, Rich.  I’m not sure if I stated that correctly.  This particular local freight can be a long train at times, so I wasn’t sure if two locomotives would be necessary to power it.  Obviously not if the trailing locomotive is just another car at the end of the train.

Here’s another question…

I’m guessing that in this scenario, the engineer in the lead unit would have to walk back to the trailing locomotive at the end of the train to switch out the siding, correct?

The crew would probably not change ends until they are ready to head back at the end of the day. It would also depend on the lay of the land between facing and trailing point switches. They would have to set out the rear locomotive somewhere to do the switching anyway.

And yes, when they change ends, the engineer has a bit of a walk, unless the crew has a vehicle.

@CNJ #1601 posted:

Similar to what Ron (CAPPilot) posted above...

P&W typically runs this local freight with a locomotive on each end.  I suppose some might say handling it this way may tie up an additional locomotive (I'm not sure if the extra horsepower is actually needed or not), but it sure makes switching this customer very easy!

Right you are as to the ease of switching.  The idling unit on the end being shoved functions only as -- you guessed it -- a shoving platform when it is the leading equipment in the direction of movement.  It is the ne plus ultra of shoving platforms, providing the trainman riding on it with fairly comfortable seating, heat, weather protection, as well as a radio, bell, whistle, and emergency brake valve.

It reminds me of a move we had to make at Concordia, KS on the Santa Fe. There was a steel plant just across the hiway leaving town, we were heading south toward Abilene, and the head car in our train, a gondola,  set out there, but the place was normally switched when we were going the other direction, toward Superior, NE. The spur the car went into was only accessable by shoving on a short lead from the north. We thought we couldn't do it, but the brakeman was regular, and had done this before. We cut off from the train, pulled the consist south of the switch, and backed down into the short lead, where we cut off the rear unit. We pulled the other units back out to the main, grabbed the head car, pulled up to the switch, and backed it down to the single unit. We cut off, and went back out to the main. We then used that single unit to shove the car into the spur, to its spot for loading. Then, we backed it out of the spur, then back out to the main, and coupled it to the rear of the consist where it belonged, then backed the consist to the train, air tested everything, and left. Helped to have both brakemen on the head end, one with a reverser.

@Rich Melvin posted:

The crew would probably not change ends until they are ready to head back at the end of the day. It would also depend on the lay of the land between facing and trailing point switches. They would have to set out the rear locomotive somewhere to do the switching anyway.

And yes, when they change ends, the engineer has a bit of a walk, unless the crew has a vehicle.

If there is a passing siding or any double-ended siding around, I would pull down and run the engine back to the other end to have both units together. That way, back at the home terminal you could take both units to the house.

I agree Jim, but if there was such a siding available, there would be no need to have a unit on both ends.