Synthetic Automatic transmission fluid for model train lubrication

Just buy plastic compatible oil. There are plenty in the market that works with any of our trains.

ATF is thin and is also a hydraulic oil, in terms of how it works in an automatic transmission.  It probably won't harm anything on a train, and is fine to use, but it is also an issue of over-thinking an issue in the sense that it is not necessary.  And it will likely make a mess if not used very sparingly.

If you want your trains to run a long time, use lubricant that is designed for model trains, and pick a reputable brand.  Toy trains don't wear out because someone used the wrong grease or oil, they wear out because they were abused or not maintained at all.  I will say that a number of years ago, as an experiment before putting some trains in storage, I did use synthetic grease on the gear case of my MPC EP-5.  While all the other locomotives required de-greasing and re-greasing when they came out of storage, this one did not -- the grease was still the same consistency and had not developed the hard, waxy consistency that older conventional train grease develops.  So if you are not into maintenance, you could probably find a synthetic grease and use that on the gears instead, but again it's not necessary. 

Finally, next time someone asks what to clean their track with, tell them to use track cleaner and save all the debate and keystrokes. 

I use Break Free CLP. It was originally designed for use in automatic weapons, which operate at extremely high temperatures for extended periods of time. CLP stands for Clean, Lubricate, Protect and it in fact can be used as a cleaner on surfaces that are intended to be lubricated. It is safe with most plastics - it has to be, the gripping surfaces on military weapons are made of plastic. It is actually Teflon in a synthetic base so there is no petroleum product to leave a sticky residue. It is a superb lubricant, reasonably priced and long lasting. I decant it into a needle oiler for train use. 

I have used mobil 1 motor oil for decades, no reason you cannot use the ATF. ATF is thinner so it may make a mess, other than that no issues, as long as you use something.  One thing to remember about automatic transmissions is that they rely on circulating filtered cooled oil, ATF may be a bad choice for worm gears, use grease.

The most important job of a transmission fluid is to keep things CLEAN. 

Hence, ATF has very high DETERGENT properties, but typically very low LUBRICATING properties -- otherwise, slippage, etc., would result inside the trans. 

However, regular motor oil has, by nature, very high LUBRICANT properties, but typically low DETERGENT properties, hence the addition of detergents to motor oil to keep things cleaner.

You could probably use ATF as a model train lubricant, but a lightweight Mobil 1 oil would be a better choice, if you absolutely had to use something other than regular model train oil. 

That's my 0.02 from years of work with automotives and selling/installing parts.

I understand a motor oil such as Mobil 1 will be much cheaper than a typical model train grease or lubricant, but relatively speaking you grease / lubricate model trains infrequently.  So unless you are running trains many hours every day, the cost advantage of motor oil will be real but modest.  The real advantage of any synthetic will be that if your trains are run infrequently the grease will not harden. 

It always amazes me that people will always use something else then what is made for it. 

Ie, lamp oil for smoke units, auto oil for lubrication, bull fog snot for tire replacement for locomotive tires. 

Just use what the mfgs. Recommend, easy, simple and it works. All this other stuff is nonsense.

No, it isn't nonsense!

If you have say, ten trains each with twenty vehicles, that's a minimum of eight hundred wheels and bearings and it is just so annoying when one you have not run for a time squeaks - quite apart from the additional drag.

As a child, I got round this by filling the axleboxes of my Bassett-Lowke and the hollow tinplate wheels of my Hornby trains with vaseline which meant that when I returned home from school in the holidays I did not need to oil everything again.  But time has moved on since the '60s, one's trains are more various but, not necesarilly more often run.   The other point is that mineral oil dries up to leave a sticky mess.

So, one looks for a lubricant that is fine thin but does not dry like, for example, sewing machine oil would.  

I do not want to spend my time lubricating things if modern materials can reduce this chore virtually to vanishing point.   The other thing, is synthetic atf comes by the quart, so no chance of runnng out on Christmas morning, or Sunday night or whenever.   And, providing it works satisfactorilly - the reason for my enquiry - it's cheap. 

I would rather have more to spend on a new train, and more time to run them reliably too.

As you might have guessed, you broached a subject that like design subjects, or manufacturers subjects, engenders a lot of passion from these forumites!

I would offer to you that lubricants are -and really should be- designed and used for their intended purposes.  There are a number of concepts around this such as viscosity, heat-range, soaping, loading, film strength, oxidation, shear protection, and evaporation that determine the real viability of a lubricant. Stepping outside the design range can have consequences to the life-cycle of your motors and gear trains.

Fortunately there are some crossovers that seem to work fine like the light weight synthetic motor oils previously mentioned.

Unfortunately, there are other products that probably shouldn't be used- but some folks "swear by"- like wheel bearing grease, among others.

Historically I have SWORN by "made for trains" lubricants like LaBelle products, but quite frankly at $8+ for a teeny bottle I am wavering...and looking hard at Mobil 1 type synthetic motor oils.  These LaBelle products are "use once and done" for me.  I use it in modern steam, diesel, and prewar tin O and Wide (basically 1 gauge)... including some prewar Märklin and B-L locos... since the Märklin paint is SO susceptible to damage from lubricants, and I have seen no occurrences of contamination from LaBelle in use on these locos, I am comfortable in using it on US produced (or imported) trains.  In fact I have a set of Exley pullman GW cars that were lubricated more than 10 years ago and still function squeak free!

So... In order to try and answer your original question.... Is ATF any good?  Maybe..............Maybe not.  I would be surprised if there is a reasonable sampling to give you an answer here.  It might be just fine.  

I am not likely to use it since there are enough good, "cheap", low detergent, synthetic motor oils already out there.

All I can say about this is that there is no advantage for train specific oils, in my opinion. I have found in over 15 years of doing this that heavy prewar standard gauge trains run and pull better when the motor and friction points, linkage, car axles, etc are lubricated with ANY synthetic motor oil compared to other lubricants.

This is my observation, and I can tell you that I would not hesitate to use it on a $5K plus set. I have. With no ill effects at all.

The beauty of it is that you can get close to the equivalent volume of some train oils just by letting the Mobil 1 bottles drain into a container after doing an oil change on a car.

Again, this is my opinion only. But in reality, look at what you're lubricating. It's a toy, not a NASCAR engine. How critical is the lubricant? Short of long term storage and it caking up, and/or drying out, it's lube properties are not all that critical. As long as it doesn't hurt the paint, etc, I think any lube is fine if it is kept after. Synthetics just don't need as much maintenance. Geez, they used to give you 3 in 1 oil with the trains.

I am very impressed that LaBelle is still doing its job on Exleys after 10 years, for the axles run in the coiled end of what I believe to be piano wire, which also forms the suspension.   One therefore has a miniscule bearing surface to hold the oil in place as well as providing sprung support.   They run so well and the heavy steel wheels sound so good, don't they!

So, it comes down to can one get away with using synthetic ATF or, say, 0W-20 synthetic motor oil and get the same results.  I stress the word synthetic, since its reluctance to oxidise means it will not gum and will not evaporate.

Maybe the ATF thing is that the strong detergents keep everything bright and clean?

I fully take the point that we are not running our bearings to anything approching some engineering stress limit!   Cheap, harmless clean and long life are the desiderta.

This important thing is to periodically lubricate your trains with whatever works for you.

Myself, I've been using LaBelle lubricants for decades across various scales and intend to continue with them.

Rusty

Yes, I agree it is nonsense.  

The lubricants made for trains and models are absolutely fine.  There is no need to go seeking alternatives, some of which may seem to work well enough in the short but no so well over the long term.  A bottle of LaBelle oil and a tube of LaBelle lubricant will last a very long time.  If it doesn't, you're probably using too much.  And if you can't afford the right stuff, you likely will have a hard time affording this hobby.

It's not whether one can afford it - it is that some modern oils, not yet marketed to the modeller, may actually be better.   Oils have changed a great deal over recent years, meaning that if you are still using the same stuff as decades ago, you are not taking advantage of what is now possible.

One can afford it - but who does not resent being charged $8 for a tiny amount of oil, which was certainly not produced by a modelling company but in fact bought from a lubricant company, re-packaged and grossly re-priced?

So, I suggest modelling oils are both out of date and expensive.

This might seem different , but I use WD40 for everything but the worm gears . I find it works great and dose not collect dust. For the worm gears on my GS4 I used a little GAA ( the grease that you use to lubricate your ball joints, U joints, or any other part of my truck that requires grease ) It now runs better at lower speeds than with the original grease and oil I was using before.

 My only advice is know what you are using, and use something. DO NOT use any oil with teflon or graphite or ep additives, like gear oil, on bronze or oilite bushings, or gears near them. Extreme pressure additives eat and corrode yellow metals, teflon, graphite, and antiseize additives plug oilite bushings, making them unable to absorb new oil. I use Moreys red grease on gears because it does not contain antisieze like red-n-tacky, so it will not plug the oilite bushings. If you use Labelle, do not use the one with teflon on your bushings. I use Mobil one, never an issue on trains or electric motors. Labelle calls some of  their oil gear oil, if you are using it you may want the find a product sheet and be sure it has no ep additives. If it is gl-4 it is ok, gl-5 not ok. Labelle 107 is motor oil and is ok. 106 grease has teflon, might be ok, might not.

And I suggest you are wrong on both counts. 

Further, for those who may be relatively new to the hobby and who may be reading this thread, I strongly advise that you stick with products recommended by the manufacturers and not experiment with cheaper shortcuts just to save a few bucks.  It will definitely pay off over the long run!

THIS IS A TERRIBLE IDEA!!!  Suzukovich, WD-40 is NOT designed as a lubricant, and though it has the apparent properties when wet, it evaporates quickly, and I have seen it affect painted surfaces and plastic too.  Some swear by it as a protectant for paint, etc, etc.  I am not sure how to clarify it, but suffice it to say, if I smell WD-40 on or around the train I will not buy it, because there really is no place other than to disperse water, or maybe loosen a screw/bolt on the trains... and if the trains got wet I really dont want them anyway.....

The grease is "ok"  but as others point out, use the "made for trains" stuff.  I have had the same tube of LaBelle 106 teflon grease for years, and have pumped many internal gearboxes full of the stuff...

I have been servicing toy and model trains well in excess of forty years. I think that most of the problems that I have encountered were related to improper lubrication. Folks using too much lubricant, putting it where it doesn't belong, and/or using the wrong products. 

I generally use Labelle's plastic compatible lubricants (some of their older products carried warnings not to use on plastics).

Just Trains, which I believe is Dennis Waldron's company, has an in-depth article on servicing Lionel. He recommends a couple of specific lubricants from outside the hobby. Given his expertise, I think I will try them one of these days.  

http://www.justtrains.com/Service/maint-main.asp

Definitely NOT something I would recommend!  I like WD-40 for what it is, and always have a can in the garage and in the house.  But short of spraying it on track that I plan to wrap in newsprint and store for a few years or more, it does not come anywhere near the trains.

As most of us know, the single most common mistake done with lubricatiuon is too much of it. The amount I apply to my trains is so slight that economy has never been such an issue that I need to look beyond products made for trains. I realize that some have many more trains than I have, but the cost of lubricating them will still be proportional to the cost of the equipment they own. You are not using more oil per car or engine with a larger amount of equipment. If you can afford the equipment you should be able to afford proper lubrication. If it is not made for trains but otherwise approved, so be it, but there is no excuse for cutting corners by experimenting with other lubricants.

Hmmm, kinda like using chicken grit, roof granules, and kitty litter for ballast! People have no problem spending $1000 for a steam engine, but want to pinch pennies when it comes time to ballast the track.

Hey, no reason to take the conversation to this point.  You are very welcome to use WD-40 on whatever you want.  We are just have a conversation here on differing lubricants.

On the question of WD-40, one interesting thing I viewed recently was the Lionel service video for one of the modern diesels I am considering -- I think it was an SD mac.  The person doing the video recommended not greasing the visible gears on the power trucks, because it would attract dirt, etc.  I wonder if the new power trucks have been designed with gears that require little in the way of lubrication, or are somehow impregnated with grease the way some of the older Lionel Corporation locomotive bearings were?

As to the original topic, I'll take a shot at summing up:

-- Locomotives require very little lubricant;

-- Using some sort of of lubricant is probably sufficient, but given that the quantity used is small, and therefore the cost is little, why not use what is actually made for model trains?

One of my other interests is performance driving, and so I've spent a fair amount of time wrenching over the years.  From that perspective I can tell you almost any automotive lubricant will be extreme overkill on a model train.  It likely won't hurt anything, but again, given the small amount of grease / lubricant needed for the average O gauge locomotive, it puzzles me that people try everything but what is made for the trains.  Then again, if you go to an automobile forum, or oil forum, it amazes me that many average people believe that they know better than the automobile manufacturer (i.e., the engineers) in terms of the type and frequency of service.  As they say, it is what it is.  My .02?  Keep it simple.  Do what the manufacturer says, irrespective of the product.  Let the engineers do their job.  You do yours. 

Rob your right. The whole point of this forum is an exchange of ideas and tricks of the trade. No one persons view is right. That's why I joined. Your right in that I shouldn't gone there. But its to late now.

Wow, I can not believe how these threads go. Synthetic ATF is just 10w oil with red dye and antifoam additives, so it will work on your trains, might not be the best choice but also not the worst. Moreys red is just a lithium based grease with red dye so you can see a leak, same as white or brown. The cam lube idea on steamer side gears from Justrains is excellent.

I just got done with a Google search for lubrication products and checked MTH, Lionel and Bachman. The Bluff is that all the Manufactures say the same thing about the type of oils. So if you are going to substitute grease or oil made for trains. Make sure you use a substitute that meets the same requirements, wither you use petroleum based or synthetic based grease and oils. and for the record I have been using LaBelle lubricants.

As the chap who started all this, which I think we are all learning from (which can only be a good thing) can I nudge the discussion away from the cost.   It is absolutely correct that the cost of lubricating one's trains is truly insignificant - though it does.nt feel like that when you go to buy that little bottle of oil.  But, rationally, the cost does not matter; I completely accept this and stand admonished.

As I understand the atf thing, this began when someone got out his childhood model racing set and found that, though wildly overlubricated in that childlike way we all did, the cars still worked straight from the box without a lot of preliminery messing

about.   Further, the part used little bottle of oil, provided by the manufacturer, was still there.   Removing the stopper, the smell was immediately recognised - by the now adult owner - as being the same as ATF.

The fact that this oil had not solidified was a remarkable thing and justified investigation - exactly the approach one would expect a good engineer to take - how to explain the unexpected!

There then followed a trial of using modern atf on some trains with excellent results.  Being Model Railroader, doubtless these were HO Gauge with modern mechanisms.

Now, I get the feeling that many who have taken the trouble to contribute to this discussion have a similar desire to mine - how to lubricate stuff that one rarely runs so that when one wants to run it - it works properly and straight away. 

Of course, perfection is impossible but can progress be made?

I do appreciate that children may be reading this frum and that they would be best advised to stick to the instructions - after all their few trains will be run regularly.

But for the collectors here, some stuff stays static for years at a time and this is a different lubrication problem requiring different solutions - just as those with railways in the garden present a different problem, where wear is a real factor given the mileage covered.

FWIW, I happen to be one that follows the manufacturer's recommendations. For Lionel, I use Lionel lubricants, for MTH, MTH lubricants (even though they are probably all LaBelle with a different label). I also have a Ford vehicle and guess where it gets serviced, yup, the Ford dealer.

For all new to intermediate comers to the hobby, I suggest following the manufacturer's recommendations for lubricating your trains (as others have posted to this thread).  As you become more experienced (and for the pros & old timers) feel free to experiment, using what ever you wish on your trains.

If a superior lubricant comes along that is actually better for our trains, the train manufacturers will start putting it in those little $8.00 (or what ever they cost?) bottles with their names on them. Just like the auto manufacturers upgrade their lubricant specifications on their vehicles as improvements are made.

Me too actually - my 20 year old LS400 still gets serviced on schedule at the Lexus dealer.   But, I have used Mobil One in it, contrary to the official Toyota advice passed on to me by the dealer, and it shows no sign of wear at 220,000 miles.   I might be wasting my money but it does not seem to be harming the car.

The official Toyota T-IV atf, by the way, is supplied by Mobil and is fully synthetic. 

I think the point is lost again, and this is becoming another ****ing contest over right or wrong.

Again, everyone here can relay their own experiences, and no one should really care about what someone else does. They can take the advice given here, or choose to ignore it.

Once again, the question was whether ATF would work. Most likely, yes, and probably for a long time with no ill effect. It would be an individual preference, and mine would be to use what I have found works for me, synthetic motor oil, for any number of reasons stated prior to this.

Fact is that whether you spend $8.00/oz. for Labelle, or use the bottom of a bottle of Mobil 1, it doesn't matter as long as it works and doesn't hurt the finish on the train. We can talk about corrosive properties, evaporation, bronze bearings, etc, but the reality is that in our lifetimes, none of it matters, because the trains will outlast us.

I understand not using anti seize on porous bearings, but that may be about it, and I suggest failure would be decades away.

Just use common sense and everything will work for a lifetime. I'm running some 95 year old trains at times. I doubt there was much thought into their care until bought by a collector. They run amazingly well with no issues. Probably used the crappiest oil and grease that was available back then because they were just toys. We seem to forget that, and put these things on some sort of pedestal, making them something they are not. They are cool, they are expensive, but they are not complex machines needing NASCAR or NHRA technology or even special train oil to keep them running. The manufacturers basically determine lubricant by whether it will do the job, protect the metal while stored, and not hurt the product. Any more engineering than that, and I suspect you're giving them more credit than is due. Look at the out of the box failures, and think about whether they scientifically designed that little tube of oil they give you. Yeah, that's a snip, and I'm sorry, but I'm a bit frustrated with this.

Common sense would dictate that a car engine is much more stressed than a toy train motor, and therefore, if the automotive oil does not hurt the painted finish (it does not on tinplate), then it's use should suffice on the trains. Not rocket science or engineering. Just common sense.

So use whatever you like and as long as you keep it cleaned and lubed when it needs it, it will last a long time

Jarfo

Yes, absolutely, I take your point that these things are not high tech - and I have a very few 19th century goods trucks, a lot of essentially mid century tech trains - through to the latest brass and some Lionel and ACE.   None of these are really high tech but the two things to watch are not blocking the pores in porous bearings with EP additives and not harming bakelite/plastic.

But, for a collector, with occasional activity only for much of the stuff, the lube requirements are more akin to horology than ordinary everyday "oiling"   Horologists have for a long time been using synthetics since they do not dry to a gum which stops the clock.  This is the sort of property one seeks.