Synthetic Automatic transmission fluid for model train lubrication

Here we go again. A month or so ago I asked the same "what oil & what grease" question and I got 50 responses with what seemed like 100 recommendations. The consensus was that "Red & Tacky #2" was the ideal grease and sewing machine oil was the best lubricant and so that's what I used to restore a number of engines that had been sitting idle for years.

Both of those products seemed to do the job just fine. All my PW engines are up and running as smooth or even smoother than I can ever remember.

There are reasons why the makers of our trains suggest certain types of lubricants. It's quite clear that there are those who are opinionated even to the point of being rude to other forum members. Listen up my friend you know who you are. My thirty-one years of military service taught me many things. The most important of these was RESPECT for others. Keep your four-letter words to yourself and not show others your lack of manners and/or insight. Remember this, Many people have been removed from this wonderful forum for doing just as you're doing. The choice is yours.

CW Burfle kindly provided a link to a set of old Lionel overhaul instructions which helps bring some of thisvery lively chat together.

Back in the day Lionel recommended straight 10 grade oil and we have learned that ATF is about that grade.   But, with synthetics one can use thinner lube and still have the same protection but with less resistance.   In the old days, thin lubricants would quickly evaporate, leaving the sticky gum - but not now.

The thinner the better when it comes to reducing the drag from rolling stock.

This is precisely the sort of advantage of modern materials that I hoping to explore, and thank all who have contributed.

The remaining question concerns synthetic grease - like conventional grease but employing non evap[orating oil in its composition.

This is available down to grade 00, which would be OK for enclosed gearboxes, but though I cannot now find it, I have seen some remarkable footage showing  a grease-covered worm spinning fast, with the grease visibly in a 'magnetic' halo around the worm, returning to the worm when it was slowed down.   This is beyond my credibility, actually! 

Anyway, how thick does one need to go for exposed worms to prevent the grease being flung off?  

I appreciate that EP aditives ought to be avoided where non-ferrous metals are used.  So, don't fill a gear case with rear-end oil!

quote:

CW Burfle kindly provided a link to a set of old Lionel overhaul instructions which helps bring some of thisvery lively chat together.

The link I provided was to original documentation written by the fellow from Just Trains, who (as I wrote before) I believe is Dennis Waldron. He used the original Lionel instructions as a launching point only.

CW Burfle

Of course you are correct - the link was to Just Trains  - but I was particularly impressed by the old Lionel recommendation to use sae10 motor oil - Winter oil in the old days of single grades for this was, to me, surprisingly thin.

But the repeated re-oiling necessary back in the day can, I believe, be largely avoided now by using modern oil.   Back in the day, Lionel or anyone else did not envisage train collecting with the infrequent use of some trains this inevitbly involves - leading to different desirable properties now.  How to achieve them is the task.

I think it is highly relevant that those that have been using Mobil 1 for many years now have nothing bad to report about it.   

Here is something I found that is interesting in a variety of forums.  Common thread;

White lithium grease (any parts store)

Silicone based grease( any parts store)

grease with PTF( Teflon )  any Parts store

Mobile 1 

Lucas Oil tacky red

Any silicone based oil (best)

CRC heavy duty silicone lubricant (Parts store )

Here are some links and info

Labelle106: (Light weight Motor oil with teflon) A Teflon like lubricant that will inhibit rust when applied to metal parts, as well as preventing friction, heat and wear. Compatible with other lubricants and can be applied over them if necessary. Non-staining, non-toxic.

Great for use on:

• Model      Trains: Exposed or Enclosed Gear Boxes (all scales)
• RC      Models: Exposed or Enclosed gear boxes on all RC models of all sizes and      type. Shock Absorbers
• Slot      Cars: Exposed or Enclosed gear boxes on Slot Cars of all Sizes
• Bicycles:      Enclosed cable rub points, gears
• Fishing      Reel mechanisms

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.co...005-12/msg00183.html

White lithium bearing grease and Mobile 1

http://machinedesign.com/mecha...astic-gears-and-more

Lubrication tips for plastic gears and more

To learn the tricks of caring for industrial drives, especially optimum lubrication methods, takes many years of field experience, or learning from others with experience.

Aug. 1, 2000 Richard Gianattasio | Motion System Design

Plastic components

Q: What lubricant (if any) should I use on plastic bearings and gears?

A: Many engineers and maintenance personnel have misconceptions that plastic components either require special plastic lubricants or no lubricants.

Wherever possible, you should lubricate plastic components to reduce friction and wear, and increase component life. Tests show that lubricated plastic sliding bearings last up to five times longer than nonlubricated ones.

Even self-lubricating plastic materials, such as PTFE (Teflon), benefit from lubrication, Figure 1. At speeds over 1 rpm, friction for a nonlubricated Teflon sleeve bearing increases, whereas it decreases for a lubricated bearing.

To optimize lubrication of plastic components, you should abide by one basic guideline: choose a lubricant that is compatible with the plastic material. Compatibility must be verified under all anticipated adverse conditions of load, speed, and environment. Incompatible plastic-lubricant combinations often cause operating problems such as stress cracking or failure of the plastic component.

Table 1 gives general compatibility guidelines. For more specific information, consult the manufacturers of the plastic component and lubricant.

Q: What affects the compatibility between lubricants and plastics?

A: Compatibility factors include the lubricant’s chemistry (base oil, thickeners, and additives), viscosity, and aging resistance.

Chemistry. Typically, lubricants based on silicone, PFAE (perflourinated), most synthetic hydrocarbons (SHC or PAO), or mineral oils work well with plastics. Lubricants based on esters or polyglycols are generally not compatible with plastics, although there are exceptions depending on the type of plastic.

Incompatible lubricants cause plastics to lose dimensional stability or structural integrity, or become discolored. To check for compatibility, manufacturers test physical properties of the plastic material including volume, weight, elongation, strength, and hardness. Each manufacturer sets limits on the allowable change in these material properties, typically 7 to 10%. In evaluating such tests, be sure they reflect your worst case conditions. Both lubricants and plastic materials are more prone to changes at higher temperatures or in adverse environments, especially with high dynamic loads.

Additives sometimes cause a lubricant to react with plastic. For example, solid additives, such as graphite or molybdenum disulfide (moly), can penetrate and weaken a plastic component and should generally be avoided. On the other hand, PTFE solid additives are useful in specific cases such as reducing startup friction or providing dry lubrication.

EP additives used in lubricating metal parts are not recommended for plastic parts. Moreover, large amounts of corrosion protectors or metal deactivator additives used with metal parts are also unnecessary for plastics.

Viscosity/NLGI grade. High-viscosity oils, generally ISO VG 100 or more, are less apt to penetrate and adversely affect plastic materials. For greases, an NLGI 1 or 0 consistency reduces friction and grease-induced noise (grease slap).

Aging resistance. As lubricants age, they are more likely to attack plastic. Therefore, long-term plastic applications call for synthetic lubricants, which have a high aging resistance. Outgassing byproducts of plastic, such as formaldehyde or styrene, accelerate the lubricant aging process.

Recommendations. Mineral-oil-based lubricants don’t attack most plastic materials and offer excellent performance for the dollar in general plastics applications.

However, with the trend to higher operating speeds, higher temperatures, and longer operation, companies are turning to synthetic lubricants, such as hydrocarbon (PAO) types, for plastic bearings and gears. PAO’s offer high aging resistance, compatibility with most plastics, and long-term lubrication within a temperature range of -60 to 320 F.

PFAE lubricants are one of the most compatible types, even with hard-tomatch plastics. Similar to PAO oils, they offer a good balance between adhesion and wetting of plastic surfaces. Probably their widest use is for extreme temperature applications, up to 500 F. Because of their high cost, use PFAE oils only where necessary.

Silicone-based lubricants also show excellent compatibility. They are suitable for low load applications and a wide temperature range (typically -90 to 425 F).

The information presented in the machinedesign web site seems interesting.

I have to wonder what makes the derkeiler newsgroup authoritative.

The key author goes on about there being no such thing as a lubricant that isn't plastic compatible.

I have several old packages of Labelle oils.

#101 synthetic multi-purpose oil (very light) and #104 synthetic multi-purpose oil (light) both carry the warning: DO NOT USE ON PLASTIC on the front of the package.

The following is printed on the back:

CAUTION: This lubricant will harm plastic and painted surfaces and should not be used on or near such surfaces. Spillage should be removed immediately.

I don't think Labelle offers either of these products any longer.

quote:

The thing is that the early trains gears and parts were made from metal not plastic. You also need to understand the technology use to make plastic gears have changed over the years.

Certainly the materials used have changed over the years. People reading this thread may be lubricating trains that are anywhere from a few months to 100 years old. How often does someone qualify their recommendations on lubricants by stating they should only be used on trains from such and such a period?

What constitutes early?

To clarify my previous comment: The plastics that Lionel and other train companies were using in the 1950's and 1960's may not be the same plastics that are used today. So a lubricant that is "plastic safe" for today's plastics may not be OK for a plastic that was used back then.

Sometimes it is surprising how materials react.
I put some CA debonder on a 1960's plastic Lionel truck. The debonder affected the plastic so the truck broke apart in my hand with the slightest bit of pressure.

Here is an article from the Machine Design site on plastic / lubricant compatibility problems:

http://machinedesign.com/archi...ricant-compatibility

Plastic like anything else gets brittle over time and it is a porous material so it depends on how it was made. Below from the article makes a good point manufactures messing with a design and mixtures to save money. Parts made from ABS are different from parts made with polyurethane and resin. Its still about what works with the product as what choices you make. I will also say that products made today, may not work with the older trains due to manufacturing technologies used at the time. The same as lubricants from the 40s,50s,60s, may not meet todays requirements.

In another situation, a manufacturer looking to reduce costs on a hinge chose a less-rigid grade of plastic and altered the molding process. The lubricant, which worked well before the change, was not altered or retested. While synthetic hydrocarbons usually are compatible with most plastics, the new plastic had less cross-linking and it physically absorbed some of the lubricating oil. The oil absorption, coupled with internal stresses common to most spring-loaded hinges, caused the new design to crack within the warranty period.

There are some general guidelines to follow for selecting a synthetic base oil for plastics or elastomers. Fluoroethers and silicones are compatible with most plastics. Synthetic hydrocarbons generally can be used with all plastics but not elastomers. And esters should be used with extreme caution with polycarbonate, polyester, polyphenylene oxide, polystyrene, polysulfone, polyvinyl chloride, Buna S, Butyl, natural rubber, and neoprene. Ultimately, however, the only way to ensure compatibility is through rigorous testing — especially under high stress, high temperature, and poor elastomer/plastic conditions.

Been using Red n' Tacky #2 on gears and Mobil One 5W30 on everything else for ten plus years. Pre-war, post-war, and modern. Clock work, live steam and electric. HO, O and Standard gauges. Everything works great. Never had a problem. For me - and my trains - they have passed the test.

And I clean my track with ATF.

And I respect what you have found to work successfully for you.

I started researching the subject after I got jumped on for WD 40. I have found out a lot in the process, more than I wanted to but its good learn about the products we use. Like I posted earlier, These items were common among RC, Slot Cars, trains, and a few other areas:

White lithium grease (any parts store)

Silicone based grease( any parts store)

grease with PTF( Teflon )  any Parts store

Mobile 1 

Lucas Oil tacky red

Any silicone based oil (best)

CRC heavy duty silicone lubricant (Parts store )

It occurs to me that it would be good to hear from "the man from laBelle" as to why we ought not to use what has been found to work satisfactorilly for many years by several people.

They are the Professional Experts, as has been pointed out by much the much esteemed Allan Millar, Editor in Chief.

I sent him an Email earlier proposing this as potential article in the magazine. But since I slammed him pretty hard earlier in the post I don't think he very happy with me. But your right not only Labelle but Lionel and MTH too and then have actual side by side comparisons. That would be a good thing for the forum members.

Suzukovich

The exception to the rule is that for live steam locos, cylinder lubrication ought to be 460 grade compound steam oil.   I mention this particurly for locos with displacement lubricators, but it also works with Bowman locos, by saturating the pads next to the piston.  This oil sticks to the pistons and cylinder walls, and the valves (or valve faces with occilators), making a good seal.

Live steam, even at fine-scale (as we call it) shows here, always attracts a crowd, particularly the toy engines.  Part of the fun is their very unpredicability.

The hand built, butane-fired, ones are now so efficient that it is difficult to tell them apart from electric locs.  The absense of the  "poison gas" smell from burning methylated spirit (you call this denatured alcohol, I think) means that there is no particular sign that there is anything unusual about these modern locos.