TCA Grading Deceptive

Many years ago I asked if there could be a way to grade the internal parts right down to whether or not an item had original wiring. Unfortunately the standards remain as mostly applied to cosmetic and complete as to only what you can see from the outside. How can you tell if an engine has an original e-unit drum? It seems the current wording should cover that but not operational. There is mention of having been test run at some earlier time, but that does not mean it is in working order on the day you are considering a purchase. IMO, I see nothing in the standards of C6 or greater that imply an item is able to run.

The TCA Standards REFER to cosmetics/appearance ONLY...READ THE WORDS IN EACH GRADE!!!  Common sense dictates that if operability is indeed an issue that YOU take the initiative and ask the seller to guarantee proper operation as condition to sale!!!!

From the TCA web site:

quote:

the Standards apply to the visual appearance and originality of the item and do not consider the operating functionality of the equipment.

Exactly right. We have gone through this before. TCA grading does not take into consideration whether an item is in working condition or not. You have to ask the seller and even that is no gaurantee since the item may or may not work when  you get it home.

"There is at least one eBay seller using the TCA Grading C8 Like New and offering an extra cost certificate to service the item so it operates like new, that is after you buy it!"

I won't even look at an item that I see on eBay from Trainz anymore because of that. They buy estates at 10 cents on the dollar and want you to pay to make sure it works. Their items were attractive in the past because they were checked out, wish them well with their new business strategy.

I agree with you 100%.  They charge a 15% buyers premium on top of the final price.  Then they changed the shipping rates on the auctions as well.  I am no longer a customer.

Actually, I believe the TCA grading system is well thought out, time-tested, and very clearly stated/defined.

What's deceptive is its use by people, esp. non-TCA, who have no idea what they're working with or how to use it....but think it helps them to sell a pig-in-a-poke by referencing it.  You know, applying a TCA grade to an auction to some folks is like dribbling "TCA, LCCA, LOTS, AARP, PITA, etc." after their name to add credibility.

It's like everything else re internet auctions..."Caveat emptor" .  It's good advice.   And, ASK QUESTIONS, if in doubt.  If you get no answer, don't bid.  If you do, save the responses in case your purchased item does not comport with the claims.

KD 

I don't see the problems you outline as that different from those of many years ago.  A train could look good, no scratches, etc., all the parts there and in the right places etc.  The motor could be there, but have brushes nealry worn out, gears worn by not being lubed, a problematic e-unit -- all the equivalent of today's electronics not in good shape.  I take the TCA grades to be indicative of the care a loco recieved, or not, but checking the internals and if it runs is mandatory if you wnat to know the rest of the story.

There is debate in the TCA every few years about the running issue.  The outcome has always been to leave them as they are.  As a TCA member I always mention the running condition when I sell an item

Remember these standards started when you could actually repair your own train.  I generally stay away from any engines made by anybody after 1990.

Collecting (virtually every field) has always been about factors related to the overall appearance of an item irrespective of operational considerations.  Those aspects can be most objectively judged, where operation is a highly subjective matter.  Trying to set standards for such things would open a huge can of worms.

You, as a prospective buyer, MUST do your own homework when it comes to shopping for collectibles...ANY collectibles.  It is YOUR responsibility to have your questions and/or concerns addressed BEFORE you hand over any money.  It has always been that way and always will be that way, even though we currently live in a society where people are extremely lazy about doing the necessary research.

The 15% buyers premium in only for items through the Trainz auction site.  It's posted upfront as with many auctions, so as a bidder one needs to take it into account when they bid.  Since it's no surprise, it really shouldn't effect the total dollar amount that a bidder pays for an item.

I had only experience with a Trainz auction, back in November when I won a scale K-Line steam engine.  The copy said the engine was quickly bench tested and worked.  When I received the engine and put in on my layout, the lights lit up and the engine did not run.  I contacted Trainz and they asked me if I wanted the engine repaired or a refund.  I opted for the refund.  They e-mailed me an RA with a printable UPS label.  They also refunded my entire purchase price (bid + buyers premium) plus my original shipping cost.  Kudos for Trainz for taking care of this problem. 

However, my draw to Trainz in the past was that they would bench test items before selling them.  If they aren't going to bench test motorized items anymore, then to me, this is a real negative.

Jim

Just to add onto what Allan said.  In this day and age, with all the information that is available on the internet, it really is much easier for one to do their homework.  Add to this, if you make an effort to find information and can't find it, usually the other folks on this forum (or one of the others) are eager to help.  In most cases, there really isn't an excuse for ignorance.

Jim

Don't forget even if you buy an item in C-10 condition and its factory sealed doesn't mean when you get it that it will work.  There are many defective items right out of the box.  So the grading was correct.   If you buy online you just need to make sure its returnable if it doesn't work.  Otherwise you either take your chances and fix it yourself if it has an issue or you don't buy it from that seller.  I have always found the TCA grading to be a good system.  And read the C-9 grading carefully.  It doesn't say it was test run, it says it may show signs of being test run.  So it can no longer be considered C-10. 

 Ron Blume and Paul Strickland make good points. I have stuff to sell and I would say I'm very cautious when grading. I usually downgrade 1 level from where I believe it should be. That said, if selling a motive item, or working accessory, my opinion of how it runs might be different than yours. I also wouldn't pay to have a purchase checked out.

  When purchasing a moving or operating item just make sure you are able to return the item if it doesn't work as described. If not described, you can always pass, or ask for a better explanation.

  Not to say the original poster doesn't have a point but if you just ask about running condition prior to the purchase, there should be no problem. If they can't tell me, or ask for more $ to test it......don't buy!

That is absolutely correct.

There's no argument that the TCA Grading System is for cosmetics, but sellers are using it without the TCA's caveat that it is for cosmetics.

The TCA should police the miss use of its grading system, and start by cracking down on the well known eBay sellers that do it.

Many--perhaps most--auctions have a buyer's premium added to the accepted bid.  Nothing at all unusual about that.  In my experience, 15% is about average.

I don't know about shipping charges, but I can't imagine most auction houses elect to eat that cost themselves.  Doesn't make sense.

Bobby,

How exactly would the TCA go about cracking down on non-members using the TCA grading system without mentioning the cosmetics caveat?

If a buyer places that much faith in the numbering system alone, you would think that they would have researched its meaning on the TCA web site where the complete explanation (with caveats) can be found.

As others have said, the key to a successful transaction is communication between buyer and seller. It is always good practice for a buyer to ask something of the seller, just to gauge reaction, response time, etc. That is the time to ask about operating characteristics, hidden problems, the side not shown in a photo, etc.

Jim

quote:

The TCA should police the miss use of its grading system, and start by cracking down on the well known eBay sellers that do it.

The TCA does not have the resources to police Ebay, its doubtful that they have any legal authority either.

FWIW, I've gone after a few eBay sellers regarding their use of TCA's grading standards. My feelings are as follows. How dare these people bring shame upon a organization by using a time honored grading system that was originally reserved for TCA members. The sellers that use the system should be questioned and doubted. If you still want the item, ask for their TCA membership number. And for goodness sakes, do not blame TCA for your stupidity.

 Since you are a member, how come you have not volunteered to spearhead this effort?

After all the TCA is a volunteer organization.

As a TCA Member, you should post more responsibly...that is, you should read from YOUR CLUB'S Website before you type such a cutesey title!!!.  YOUR POST IS DECEPTIVE!!!  Just the other  day, Allan Miller suggested another poster use a question mark after his PREMISE!!!

Well, after reading everyone's comments, I'd say you all have clearly shown that it is better to deal with sellers, face to face, and to support your local hobby shop (if you have one.

Such a deduction is one of the results of such a thread...a lot of research, and experience has gone into building a 40-year collection.  Did I mention the TRUST I have in fellow TCA Members???  Not everyone is out to getcha Chuck...especially NOT your fellow Members???  I don't have to see IT in person...I need only possess the KNOWLEDGE to ask the right questions...you simply gotta do the homework!!!

The caveat "Buyer Beware" applies. The TCA has made a very reasonable grading system for cosmetic appearances. A written set of rules cannot replace having the common sense to ask questions upfront.

My least favorite sellers (whom I avoid) say" I don't know if it works or not..I don't have a transformer..I don't know anything about trains...etc "or has a no return policy, what does that tell you about how they valuate their item, yet they do set a price without knowing what they have or even if it works. Its the nature of anybody can sell anything with absolutely no concern or knowledge regarding the actual value to the buyer or the market. Its up to the buyer to make a wise choice. Some sellers are not the brightest bulbs on the block. Your own knowledge is your best weapon against risky bets. Life has no iron clad fairness doctrine.