The 783 Hudson! Puller or slug?

Remember, the ZW was great in another time.  Try your engine with the  high output ZW-L.

Wish I had that kind of bucks for ZW-L. But old ZW is all I can afford. It works well on everything else, dual motored Williams, Dual Motored Lionel, everything I have runs well and less Voltage. This as much as I like it seems to be a pig.

These locomotives are known to run slowly.  They are geared that way -- not just this Hudson, but most of them.  That being said, with my 785 Hudson, it literally took about 10 hours of running for it to really loosen up.  Now it runs really very well.  Not super fast, but nice and smooth.  Pulls six Lionel aluminum cars without any issues at an appropriate speed (using a 180w brick).  It's actually a perfect loco for the kids to use because it never derails, and while it smokes and has a whistle, it doesn't go fast enough to tumble off the tracks generally (although at high speeds, it can get close). 

If you are satisfied that you have done everything maintenance-wise, there is a way to properly shim up the motor and maybe you haven't done that correctly?  I don't know, but it is also possible.  Finally, the motor can be replaced if that is the issue instead of the driveline. 

It's probably a bit taboo over here, but do you know that other train magazine?  About 15 years ago, they did an article on tuning up Hudsons.  It is likely still available if you call them or email them. 

Final thought is that depending upon where you are, you can find a good tech.  On this forum, GGG and GRJ are aces.  If you can ship or are near Maryland, I have used Frank Vacek with great results.  Frank used to work for Williams, pre-Bachman, and he is an ace with the postwar equipment and the newer stuff too.  If interested, I can send you his contact information. 

HTH. 

PS:  Marty is not wrong about transformer.  I appreciate that not everyone has the bucks for a ZW-L.  That being said, you should test your ZW for output.  I thought the ZW was the end-all be-all until I started using more modern power bricks.  The trains do run better and more consistently.  If it is not right, you can find another, good used ZW or look here on the forum for a used MTH Z4000.  All that being said, if your ZW is OK, a 783 should run just fine with it. 

Increasing voltage above 16 - 18 is just using brute force to overcome an issue rather than fixing it. If you have done all the tune up stuff posted on this forum and there is little or no improvement then it's almost time to investigate for misaligned or out of round armature shaft bushings and possibly a not straight armature shaft. Before going there check the brush plate. Get the wheels in the air and get the motor moving in the forward direction. Using a flat  toothpick or similar, gently start moving the brushes around in their brush wells. You should see changes in speed and motor sounds. The brush wells in these LTI brush plates are often too large and loose to make good electrical contact with the brushes. A pair of shunted brushes and a cautious tightening of the brush well inner diameter may help your situation.

All of these scale and semi-scale hudsons were made to run slow. They are geared differently.

Tin

Mine seems to do OK after a good cleaning to remove old hardened grease. Running on a Z-4000 at about 14 - 16 V.

Jim

Frisco Brakeman posted:

I bought a 783 Hudson that was new in box, it is a very nice loco.

So did I, and you're right -- it is very nice.  In fact, mine is running on my layout right now, pulling a Lionel express reefer and three Atlast Trainman NYC passenger cars.

I have tuned it up from info that I've gained on here and the other forum. I've added shims, moved magnets, lubed it, and even ground the ends of the rods down. 

You've done all the right things.  I don't understand the part about "grinding the ends of the rods down," though.

And watch out for those magnets.  Even after moving them away from the wheels and epoxying them in place, the one on my rearmost drivers still wouldn't stay where it belonged.  I finally ended up removing the rearmost magnet.  The locomotive still runs fine, with no wheel slip.

I've run this engine to break it in; don't know if long enough: several hours for sure. it runs some what better but; It still seems like a slug.

Several hours isn't nearly enough.  These locomotives need a lot of break-in time.

I have a consist of 7 aluminum passenger cars -- all have been cleaned and oiled -- that I like to pull with it. I have a good ZW with great voltage,so no issues there: although I have to operate the ZW wide open for very little speed. I can hook up a freight consist of MPC and Modern cars; even with the free rolling trucks, still a slug. Are they really that bad, for such a nice engine. Are there any more suggestions? Anybody else have one that snail paces along, and an ant could out pull. How many cars does yours pull? How many passenger/ freight cars do you suggest?

As others have correctly noted, the descendants of the 700e are geared very low, and are not speed demons.  As others have INcorrectly said, running them at over 16 volts is not overkill.  They were meant to reach their maximum scale speed at 20v.

As for the transformer, my vintage KW works just fine with the 783.

The 783 isn't for the impatient.  The best thing you can do now is run it, run it and run it.  I wasn't kidding about them needing a lot of break-in time.

 

I have one, bought it new, took it out to Lionel, they did some fiddling but it still is a dog. I was very disappointed, it was my first 773 type engine. Fortunately their later efforts turned out to be great engines.

As the "old" ZW and your 783-design are from the same technology era, there is no compatibility or capacity issue.

These scale-sized Hudsons were geared much better than most of Lionel' s toy steamers; they aren't designed to do toy-like speeds. They do, as said above, require a break-in that most modern modelers don't understand. Lubricate those axles; check that gearbox for old grease. Also, this loco will never pull what a similar modern DC-motored steamer will; the power isn't there.

Having said all that, when properly "aged" by break-in, this chassis, found under all sorts of iterations (like the C. Vanderbilt and fully-detailed versions), will run well, smoothly and pretty darn slowly. I have a well-run-in C. Vanderbilt version that I bought used; runs as well as some early can-motor O-gauge locos - and better than some others.

Scale models aren't meant to be run at silly, zoom-zoom speeds; I don't know if you expect that or not. That too-fast running (it's the gear ratio) exhibited by the Williams scale-size clone of your engine is that engine's fatal flaw. 

I have a similar engine, the 785. My father has the 1-700E, also similar. Neither is a speed demon, but both are reasonable pullers, and that without traction tires or magnetraction.

Expectations about how much a loco should be able to pull are way higher today than 30 years ago, when that engine was made. But you don't say that it won't pull the train, just that it is slow. An engine without traction tires is more likely to slip than stall when pulling too many cars, so as long as it is pulling the train at all, it is probably working in the speed range it was designed for.

Is something still wrong, even after you tuned it? The unscientific way I would go about finding out would be to run it for a solid hour. After it gets good and warmed up, check the voltage it is drawing. If it is still running at about the same speed at that same voltage an hour later, then you have a healthy engine. If gets hot and starts going slower and slower, then there is a problem. 

Hey to all !  Thanks for all your advice and comments. Let me clear a few things up. When I do a lube job, learned from folks on here , I start fresh with new lube. I moved the magnets, but didn't epoxy them. when I said I ground the rods down, just on the ends; to deburr them from where they were stamped out. I sure it is running up to par with what you all have expressed. I know 7 aluminum passenger cars are a very heavy consist, and comparing it to my dual motored Williams F unit is like comparing apples to oranges, not really fair. I'm not expecting a speed demon, but maybe faster than a snail. I had the loco probably 6 months now and I dout that it has 10 hours of run time altogether. So maybe I'll just run it for days straight and wait and see. Thanks again, and keep thoughts comments coming.       Pete

I do not have 783, but I do have the 704 Santa Fe Warhorse Hudson. The main difference between the 783 and the 704 is that the 783 has bar magnetraction whereas the 704 has axle magnetraction very similar to that of diesels.  As mentioned earlier, one the things to keep in mind is that the 773-styled Hudson locomotives have 20v motors in them compared. It took 80 hours for my Hudson to break in. Now it will coast 4 feet in an "emergency stop". It will also, with some minor slipping, pull the 6 aluminium cars from the Santa Fe anniversary set with ease; even with just 18v to the track.  

I wasn't expecting speed but I did expect power. Mine does not have either.

I do not understand why it is thought that a 773 has a higher voltage motor than other Lionel locomotives of the same era.  In looking in Bob Hannon's "Reference Manual I" it shows the 671, 681, 726 and 773 all having the same wire size  on both the armature coils and field coils, and approximately the same number of turns on the armature and field coils.  What would limit the operating voltage on a low voltage motor like Lionel used would be either poor commutation or excess temperature of the armature coils. By increasing the voltage the current would also go up thus the HP would go up.  The risk in doing this is a failure as I described above.  What is different about the 773 is it has larger wheels so it will go farther, thus faster, for each wheel revolution.  Lionel compensated for this by making use of the larger wheel diameter to put on a larger gear, which slows the locomotive down. I have never looked at the design closely enough to under stand the full impact of these changes, but apparently it went wrong. For years all I have heard is how the 773 preforms poorly, when the increased weight should have improved its pulling performance.  The way to get more power out of a small motor is to run it faster. Some day I should take the time to figure out how the motor speed vs. the track speed of the 773 compairs to the other locomotives of this era.

David Johnston posted:

I do not understand why it is thought that a 773 has a higher voltage motor than other Lionel locomotives of the same era.

Well, the owner's manual for the 773 (page 1) says:

"The normal operating voltage of the 773 locomotive ranges from 12 to 20 volts, depending upon the train load, and its current consumption, including the smoke generator and the reversing E-Unit is from 3 to 4 amperes."

Here is the first page of the 783 owner's manual. Clearly states the voltages required (10 - 20 vots AC). 

have you checked the commutator,, and slots,

Be careful putting that much voltage on the rails.  If you have any newer Legacy or LionChief Plus locos sitting on sidings, etc., the manuals warn against exceeding 19V.  It seems like after many years, the standards have changed.

Frankly I would like to see Lionel, MTH, etc. go to a 24V standard as LGB uses.  My own experience with 24-volt motors suggests that there are performance gains to be had.

I lubed it up.  It started at 10 volts drew 2 amps at 20 volts with 5 lighted passengers cars. The E-Unit is sticking but it works with a few taps.

Yeah, After reading all the post you folks have given me the info. Yes mine runs just like you all say, it runs nice and steady but doesn't get in a hurry. Its noisy as a coffee grinder; and it run at the stated voltage.  I was just wondering if its up to par, I believe that it is. Thanks Pete!

My 783 I got about a year ago also ran poorly. I changed the armature to a dual slotted armature shaft P/N 8606-112. You would need to remove the coupling P/N 397-M16 to remove the armature. This armature made a night and day change in the performance of my 783.