https://mthtrains.com/news/618
Press Release:
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The one thing I did not see mentioned is whether they will continue to produce tinplate, but with the MTH logo instead of the Lionel logo, as they did for decades prior to this licensing agreement. One assumes yes, otherwise why mention that they own all the tooling? Perhaps they don't want to commit to producing tinplate until they see how this last catalog does? Time will tell, of course.
At one time this was my favorite go-to catalog every year. I bought a Christmas train, lots of locos and rolling stock, a big orange 256 electric and the ever-so-cool remake of the Red Comet set.
Have moved away from tin the past several years but may have to find something in this one to tempt me. 
Not sure why Lionel would slant any future agreement in a way that prevents this relationship from continuing. Lionel most likely isn't entering the full tinplate market. Why not collect royalties off of each item that MTH creates for its established market. Guess we will get the Lionel name licensed on non train nick nacks like lamps and those cheap wrist watches.
wow,but mostly rehash of 2016,dealers with special 400 sets,loved the af sets,glad I got what I did,when I did,and no subways $&%&%%$^####
As noted above, MTH owns and retains all the tinplate tooling. Renewal of the licensing agreement with L was simply not economically feasible or justifiable at this stage. No decision has been made as to whether copies of the new 2018-19 catalog will be printed for distribution at the upcoming York or for mailing to dealers. For now, best to print out and retain the online copy. Also keep in mind that MTH is not restricted from offering tinplate items down the road under the MTH logo. All depends on whether the business model can justify future offerings. Those of us who truly enjoy and collect the tinplate trains would would be quite pleased to see future offerings....but there has to be a perceivable demand to justify production.
I think there will be more tinplate in the future. I think the market is just saturated right now but tinplate is Mike W first love so I don’t see it disappearing. I think it’s safe to say new tooling for tinplate isn’t going to happen right now and they have produced a lot of product in every color imaginable. I wouldn’t be surprised if a future Lionel/MTH venture develops again.
terry hudon posted:wow,but mostly rehash of 2016,dealers with special 400 sets,loved the af sets,glad I got what I did,when I did,and no subways $&%&%%$^####
Exactly. And that's why my tinplate orders went from fairly robust 5-6 years ago to pretty much zero the last few.
The one item I always passed on that I might consider is the Lionel Lines orange and blue loco and passenger car set. Always an eye catcher.
Jim Rawlings posted:As noted above, MTH owns and retains all the tinplate tooling. Renewal of the licensing agreement with L was simply not economically feasible or justifiable at this stage. No decision has been made as to whether copies of the new 2018-19 catalog will be printed for distribution at the upcoming York or for mailing to dealers. For now, best to print out and retain the online copy. Also keep in mind that MTH is not restricted from offering tinplate items down the road under the MTH logo. All depends on whether the business model can justify future offerings. Those of us who truly enjoy and collect the tinplate trains would would be quite pleased to see future offerings....but there has to be a perceivable demand to justify production.
Unless it was updated between when you read the release and when I read the release, it specifically says no printed version will be produced. (Craig's link without the "a" on the end)
-Dave
Dave, I am aware of the announcement on line. Does not reflect the possibilities.
Unless Lionel required a min royalty...wouldn't the traditional license by x% of sales. So no risk.
Dave45681 posted:Unless it was updated between when you read the release and when I read the release, it specifically says no printed version will be produced. (Craig's link without the "a" on the end)
-Dave
That is correct: NO printed version.
Many of my thoughts covered above. Almost just a note saying - btw here's what we got left, plus the dealer specials. Case in point the lone 710 series passenger with no set.
The disappointment for me is still no 2816 hoppers. The ones offered in the 2016 lct catalog were cancelled. Hopefully they make a comeback after the licensing agreement expires.
I do like that UP Standard Gauge passenger set. Looks to have nickel trim... would go well with my Lionel Classics Grey 400E. (Definitely going to pre-order!)
I'm pretty bummed that there won't be any more of these, since they were lovely products. I already have plenty of them, and they're all really high quality. Though I do think there's not much else they have and can do in terms of reproductions, and could've done more original ideas. I would've loved to see a new O gauge version of the standard gauge No.200 turntable - long enough to hold tender engines like the 263E at least.
I would like to see them make Modern Era Standard Gauge on a made to order basis. I would love a M10,000.
Mikado 4501 posted:I would've loved to see a new O gauge version of the standard gauge No.200 turntable....
Ditto! Would buy one of those for sure.
Since Lionel moved away from continuing their classic tinplate product line, I liked the fact that although MTH and Lionel are competitors and former legal adversaries, both sides came to a mutual agreement to allow the "Lionel Lines" to continue on via MTH product production. Although I don't like the thought, I do understand the possible reason why Lionel might not want to extend the current "Lionel Lines" licensing agreement if Lionel believes that any licensing fee received does not help Lionel in the sale of their current and future products. Since there is a lot of overlap between modern tinplate and modern regular/scale operators, it could also be argued that a sale of a new MTH "Lionel Lines" product reduces the potential amount of money available in the market to be used to buy a current Lionel BTO product.
You never know... depending upon the finer details of the contract and possibly before the end of the licensing agreement, M's factory had a large production run of "Lionel Lines" name plates that will end up in the MTH service/parts bins for later resale to customers that might have a damaged nameplate to replace.
So I purchased a blue 400E with brass trim. It again has a full page picture in this new catalog. I was told that matching coaches would be produced in the next catalog. Of course, they are not in the new catalog.
Sooooo... can I get the nickel trim coaches and somhow change them to brass?? Will the blue match? Ugh. Dissapointed.
Whoop nevermind they are in the new catalog as brass! They are just pictured as nickel...
I love you MTH.
Craignor posted:I think they have done enough of the Classic Lionel reproductions.
I would like to see MTH make some Modern Standard Gauge like the Harlan Creswell 600e with Proto 3 with all the modern bells and whistles.
I agree, or even a tin SW-2 or something would have been great. I suspect, however, the economics for the up-front cost of producing new tooling has passed.
PD
johnstrains posted:The one item I always passed on that I might consider is the Lionel Lines orange and blue loco and passenger car set. Always an eye catcher.
Yep. I'm looking at that too with the 263E engine. Would look good with my other set...
Attachments
The only "Lionel" aspect of the line were the Lionel emblems on the trains. Everything was made by/for MTH. I don't understand why folks would refuse to buy if the trains are released with an MTH logo.
I'd rather have an original prewar Lionel piece in good or better condition.
C W Burfle posted:The only "Lionel" aspect of the line were the Lionel emblems on the trains. Everything was made by/for MTH. I don't understand why folks would refuse to buy if the trains are released with an MTH logo.
I'd rather have an original prewar Lionel piece in good or better condition.
Well a couple of things... MTH, without the license, would not be allowed to produce the Orange and Blue color scheme due to Lionel's copyright. Personally for me I like the look. The logo on the side is less important but again for me it's a cool reminder of the past.
An original doesn't have the sounds, smoke, and control of the MTH line. For many of us that's important. My engine pictured above is fully conventional though.
It's a shame the licensing agreement is coming to an end. I suspect but have no proof that if tinplate was selling, MTH would have pursued the licensing again. Maybe Lionel wanted too much, I don't know. MTH has done an incredible job with the tinplate line regardless whos logo is on the side of the engines. The paint, the control, and the spirit of the past comes out in their tinplate trains.
Thank you MTH for bringing the Lionel Corporation Trains back.
MartyE posted:C W Burfle posted:The only "Lionel" aspect of the line were the Lionel emblems on the trains. Everything was made by/for MTH. I don't understand why folks would refuse to buy if the trains are released with an MTH logo.
I'd rather have an original prewar Lionel piece in good or better condition.Well a couple of things... MTH, without the license, would not be allowed to produce the Orange and Blue color scheme due to Lionel's copyright. Personally for me I like the look. The logo on the side is less important but again for me it's a cool reminder of the past.
An original doesn't have the sounds, smoke, and control of the MTH line. For many of us that's important. My engine pictured above is fully conventional though.
It's a shame the licensing agreement is coming to an end. I suspect but have no proof that if tinplate was selling, MTH would have pursued the licensing again. Maybe Lionel wanted too much, I don't know. MTH has done an incredible job with the tinplate line regardless whos logo is on the side of the engines. The paint, the control, and the spirit of the past comes out in their tinplate trains.
Thank you MTH for bringing the Lionel Corporation Trains back.
Frankly I would rather have the MTH logo on the sides. It's rather confusing to have a product wholly made by one company with another company's name on it. While I absolutely love it my mth premier tinplate, having a different name on the sides always felt a little like a corvette with a blue oval on it. I have never personally been a big fan of the blue and orange combo.
Frankly as far as not selling well, I think its a combination of a saturated market and a stale product line. I have two mth tinplate steamers with ps-3, a 261 and a 263. While the other engines available are very eye catching, I am not in the market to drop a wad of cash on the same thing I already have with a different paint scheme. If there actually a new model, I think it would sell great. Most of the same old trim parts could be used, but God help me how about a different wheel arrangement? Also I think cancelling the transition cars that had box couplers on one end and lobster claw couplers on the other was a huge mistake. Most non-tinplate folks won't crank out their own conversion car, but I find having one greatly enhances my enjoyment of our hobby.
I look forward to seeing what mth does with the product line once the agreement expires. And that you to mth for making this product in the first place.
An original doesn't have the sounds, smoke, and control of the MTH line. For many of us that's important. My engine pictured above is fully conventional though.
Whose electronics do the Lionel/MTH tinplate trains use? are they Lionel or MTH?
C W Burfle posted:An original doesn't have the sounds, smoke, and control of the MTH line. For many of us that's important. My engine pictured above is fully conventional though.
Whose electronics do the Lionel/MTH tinplate trains use? are they Lionel or MTH?
MTH's.
Rusty
The licensing is not the issue as much as it is the dwindling interest in tinplate. The demand has reached a point where it is difficult to find anyone to manufacturer the product in the low qualities that are ordered. Generally speaking the tinplate purchaser is on the upper age end of the model train hobby. Tinplate is dieing because the collectors of tinplate are. It’s sad but it is reality.
Scott Smith
I am liking the Spirit of the Union Pacific Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force boxcars.
Steve
scott.smith posted:The licensing is not the issue as much as it is the dwindling interest in tinplate. The demand has reached a point where it is difficult to find anyone to manufacturer the product in the low qualities that are ordered. Generally speaking the tinplate purchaser is on the upper age end of the model train hobby. Tinplate is dieing because the collectors of tinplate are. It’s sad but it is reality.
Scott Smith
I can confirm this. I am 20 years old and have zero interest in owning any tinplate trains. Not to say tinplate is undesirable, though, I do enjoy seeing Std. Gauge layouts at train shows.
scott.smith posted:The licensing is not the issue as much as it is the dwindling interest in tinplate. The demand has reached a point where it is difficult to find anyone to manufacturer the product in the low qualities that are ordered. Generally speaking the tinplate purchaser is on the upper age end of the model train hobby. Tinplate is dieing because the collectors of tinplate are. It’s sad but it is reality.
Scott Smith
I respectfully disagree with much of that. About 20-25 years ago, people were predicting the death of standard gauge because the people who were kids during the 20s and 30s were dying. Although there has been some decrease in value for items in poor condition, the overall interest level has actually increased in the last 15 years or so. I attribute this to the visibility and availability of reproductions, which has also revived interest in the originals.
While I agree that there are challenges associated with small production runs, this is something that affects every toy train item - many high-end O gauge items have a run of less than 100 pieces. It's not unique to tinplate.
I think there are two real problems. One is the lack of new items - instead of producing an F3 (for example), there's just another paint scheme on a 400E. How many differently-painted 400Es will a person buy? IMO, the other factor is that one of the parties is placing an unrealistic value on being able to put a Lionel badge on an item; I don't know if Lionel is overestimating, or if MTH is underestimating.
Give it a rest for a couple of years. MTH will probably make some tinplate without the Lionel badge, and then there will be an agreement again. Perhaps by not trying to duplicate Lionel items, MTH will come up with something new. Or not.
I think that Lionel will end up as the bigger loser in this deal - their licensing income for tinplate will be zero. Meanwhile, MTH will be able to continue selling tinplate, albeit without the Lionel badge.
"I think that Lionel will end up as the bigger loser in this deal - their licensing income for tinplate will be zero."
Perhaps, but I'm guessing the income was modest. Perhaps they simply decided that having your prime competitor making products with your name on it didn't seem like a good idea of brand identity? Remember that the licensing deal was made by a prior Lionel leadership, and the current leadership may not see it in the same light. As in "not our idea." Just some random thoughts. Perhaps an idea and plan that has run its course, from Lionel's standpoint.
Hiawatha98 posted:scott.smith posted:The licensing is not the issue as much as it is the dwindling interest in tinplate. The demand has reached a point where it is difficult to find anyone to manufacturer the product in the low qualities that are ordered. Generally speaking the tinplate purchaser is on the upper age end of the model train hobby. Tinplate is dieing because the collectors of tinplate are. It’s sad but it is reality.
Scott Smith
I can confirm this. I am 20 years old and have zero interest in owning any tinplate trains. Not to say tinplate is undesirable, though, I do enjoy seeing Std. Gauge layouts at train shows.
At 20, I had no interest in tinplate. On a whim I got an O gauge tinplate club car when I was around 27. Now I have a club car train, and I purchased both of my sons a standard gauge Ives and 400E for their first Christmas. I cant think of a better heirloom for them to enjoy every year.
Now the problem is, if I have a 3rd boy down the road I hope I can get my hands on a good set.
Hiawatha98 posted:scott.smith posted:The licensing is not the issue as much as it is the dwindling interest in tinplate. The demand has reached a point where it is difficult to find anyone to manufacturer the product in the low qualities that are ordered. Generally speaking the tinplate purchaser is on the upper age end of the model train hobby. Tinplate is dieing because the collectors of tinplate are. It’s sad but it is reality.
Scott Smith
I can confirm this. I am 20 years old and have zero interest in owning any tinplate trains. Not to say tinplate is undesirable, though, I do enjoy seeing Std. Gauge layouts at train shows.
When I first got back into O gauge I was interested in the latest modern products. I didn't give tinplate a second look or thought. I did not have a personal connection to any tinplate or even postwar stuff. However, after several semi-annual York trips where I saw both original pre-war product and the modern replicas I started to look more seriously at the modern tinplate by MTH, Lionel and Williams. While at York I would always buy Tom McComas/TM Video DVD's. Several tinplate themed episodes pulled me further towards the shiny stuff. I admire the character, colors and design of prewar and modern tinplate products. The mix of colors and varied metal trim remind me of the creative and beautiful designs of automobiles from early to mid 20th century. I primarily collect and run modern trains, but when possible, I will also buy and run both eras of tinplate. Tinplate is the true toy train.
Unless something changes within the current manufacturing/import environment, the higher minimum production order quantities now demanded by offshore production companies likely will greatly hurt the train hobby in all its scales.
I got out of Standard Gauge just because I had some $$ tied up in trains that I really couldn't run or enjoy: too little room, time, etc. I remain very interested in SG trains. Should the room, time, etc., ever materialize, I will get back into it.
HOWEVER: I only have interest in originals, and I have zero interest in anything MTH.
I wonder how many hobbiests are in a similar position.
jhz563 posted:Many of my thoughts covered above. Almost just a note saying - btw here's what we got left, plus the dealer specials. Case in point the lone 710 series passenger with no set.
The disappointment for me is still no 2816 hoppers. The ones offered in the 2016 lct catalog were cancelled. Hopefully they make a comeback after the licensing agreement expires.
The disappointment for me is the waiting of many years for the 300 series add-on passenger car for the PRR 384e pass starter set. Told many times by MTH and Rich Foster that it was soon to be made, that just had to catch up on production. This being said while all of the special order 400e locos are now being offered. Doubt that I will ever see it.
Joe Gozzo
Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:I am liking the Spirit of the Union Pacific Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force boxcars.
Steve
meee toooo!
Several of us in the groups I am in like to run and we do multiple train shows each year and the MTH stuff just plain runs for hours without any fussing. I like having the benefits of command, sounds, smoke, and the tinplate. Because we run them others have brought out their trains to run and that is where I fear we will lose people and not grow the hobby, and I think older stuff will once again go back to collecting dust on a shelf since parts might not be made.
I hope I am wrong.....
I received my first train set in 1952. That is 66 years ago. It was a Lionel so through the mid 70's the only thing I was interested was postwar Lionel to the early 60's. In my opinion after that point Lionel, MPC, Fundimensions or whoever the current owner was brought very little to the hobby.
In the mid 70's Williams effectively picked up the mantel from Lionel and began introducing new product via the E60, SD45, Metroliner, longer heavyweights and brass engines.
Finally, Mike Wolf took the hobby to levels not seen since before some of the members here were born. Look at the list of engines and rolling stock he developed. Lionel being far behind even contracted with him to produce those engines that I bought with the Lionel name on them thinking Lionel was finally back in the game. Once Lionel was finally able to actually get suppliers to produce competitive product they pushed MTH out.
Was it a surprise when they reached an agreement on tinplate? Frankly yes. Living down here at the end of the road in south Texas I seldom if ever get to train meets or the Conventions or York(never). I am far away from the conversation that goes on at these shows. What I have been able to glean is that Mike Wolf loves trains especially tinplate and the Lionel legend. I think he went along because it made him part of that story.
Do I think MTH will continue to make tinplate? Absolutely because he loves the product. This break might actually open the door for new and different product. Am I concerned about the Lionel tradition? Absolutely. Lionel had a history of making toy trains for kids that was generational. What I see them doing today is saying, 'for a few of you guys with a lot of disposable income let me make you special by selling you something that costs a lot and no one else has'.
Personally I don't want to feel special. I just want to enjoy my trains.
