The last catalog of LTC trains is out.

These new 400e’s had already been made but they were not painted. There were not that many of them. MTH spoke with several large tinplate dealers to see if they were interested in a short run (10 locomotives) with the paint schemes of their choice. I first heard about this from Pat at Patrick’s Trains when I was in his store several months ago. 

These are the last 400E’s we are going to see for a long while. MTH cannot get these produced unless the demand for these increase.  I love standard gauge and the 400e’s (I own 4 of them). I started a standard gauge group in the Roanoke Valley Model Railroad Club. Of course I am disappointed to see the tinplate offerings coming to an end. It’s been a great run and I want to publically thank MTH for the many great tinplate offerings they have produced for us. They continued to support this end of the hobby when everyone else walked away from it. 

Scott Smith

My first experience with MTH tinplate product was through the purchase of lamp posts, signals, structures, etc.  The trains didn't do anything for me because, in my mind, they had been done before.  However, once MTH began making tinplate trains in color schemes and prototypical road names, I sat up and took notice:  here was some new tinplate that Lionel never offered, let alone considered.  I met Mike Wolf back in 2011 and expressed my thanks for giving us tinplaters some new product.  I don't think we need to worry too much about tinplate going away so long as Mr. Wolf has something to say about it.  Who knows?  We may see some European-influenced tinplate, like a Standard or O Gauge tinplate Rheingold in the not-too-distant future.  (A tinplate crocodile would be nice too!)

Bill DeBrooke posted:

 

Do I think MTH will continue to make tinplate?   Absolutely because he loves the product. 

But he is also a businessman who has to make a profit.  Given all that Mike has done with/for tinplate in the last 30+(?) years I don't think he owes anyone anything.

Hiawatha98 posted:

I can confirm this. I am 20 years old and have zero interest in owning any tinplate trains. Not to say tinplate is undesirable, though, I do enjoy seeing Std. Gauge layouts at train shows.

You sound a lot like me when I was 20.   Once you get older, perhaps have a family, you get a better sense of history and perhaps you, like myself, may find yourself desiring a tinplate set for under the Christmas tree.   Once you make the first purchase the others seem to fall into place naturally.  Personally, I started with a passenger station....then a crossing gate....then villas....you get the picture. 

-Greg

RadioRon posted:

Bill DeBrooke posted:

 

Do I think MTH will continue to make tinplate?   Absolutely because he loves the product. 

But he is also a businessman who has to make a profit.  Given all that Mike has done with/for tinplate in the last 30+(?) years I don't think he owes anyone anything.

That's what I think as well ... not sure if models based on modern ones would sell except for a select few.
As a side note, I  was looking at videos of HO Hornby Live steam engines last night.
They seemed to stopped selling these but O or Standard gauge live steam would be so cool !
Imagine a 263 live steamer from MTH ...

Here is an older video from Hornby ... skip ahead to see the models running.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7jjJamfl_c 

Trainlover160 posted:

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

I am liking the Spirit of the Union Pacific Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force boxcars.

Steve

meee toooo!

With my son being in the Navy and all I may have to at least pull the trigger on that one. 

RadioRon posted:

There is a lot of nice stuff in that catalog!  While I appreciate tin plate, I've never delved into it.  I think the U.S. military boxcars should sell well.  You have to credit MTH for coming up with some really creative decoration ideas.   I noticed that the Christmas North Pole reefer shown toward the end of the catalog was actually delivered in 2013!

There is definitely a bit of a "clearing out" mode to some of the items listed (understandably).  I initially noticed the previous MTHRRC offerings at the bottom of page 17, then checked out the other items on the same page, and found that the brown and white reefer was delivered in 2010.

I am only a recent purchaser of anything tinplate.  I went for the recent Orange and Blue 263 and passenger cars on page 7, as well as the two freight car offerings shown below it.  I may seek out any previous freight cars in a similar orange/blue scheme, I guess I will have to scrub old catalogs to find the ones I may be interested and look around for them at train meets or eBay.

-Dave

Landsteiner posted:

"I think that Lionel will end up as the bigger loser in this deal - their licensing income for tinplate will be zero."

Perhaps, but I'm guessing the income was modest. Perhaps they simply decided that having your prime competitor making products with your name on it didn't seem like a good idea of brand identity?  Remember that the licensing deal was made by a prior Lionel leadership, and the current leadership may not see it in the same light.  As in "not our idea."  Just  some random thoughts.  Perhaps an idea and plan that has run its course, from Lionel's standpoint.

Good point about "not our idea".  It's a poor excuse, but who can say what management might be thinking?

I would expect that the agreement included details regarding what can be produced, quality requirements, and how it can be presented, so I don't see a huge concern about stuff being made by a competitor.  Given Mike Wolf's love of tinplate, the concern about producing something detrimental to the brand should be minimal.    

Agree that Lionel's income from the agreement is probably small, but it's about as close to "free money" as one can get - Lionel gets a stream of income, and except for some contract writing and monitoring, they do practically nothing.  Not sure why they would choose to walk away from that.

We've all had our chance to buy Lionel-badged tinplate.  Now, perhaps MTH can create some new stuff.

I just noticed the mthrrc,#200 club hopper is light  blue,i like it,may have to reup my membership to that

There is no reason for the Lionel bashing. Lionel is not the reason this has come to an end.

"While an option to continue the relationship was proffered, the renewal terms offered by Lionel for an extension beyond 2019 were not conducive for any future M.T.H. tinplate plans."

The market is no longer large enough to justify renewing the license. I'm sure Lionel would have been happy to take MTH's money.

Scott Smith

A very reliable source that I care not to mention had a very good point. He reminded me of the lawsuit 10 years ago where MTH won a lawsuit and Lionel claimed bankruptcy.

Due to the settlement, Lionel agreed to lisence the tinplate, and the time is now up.

 I had totally forgotten about the lawsuit but it makes perfect sense. Therefore, Mike is probably waiting for things to cool down with high inventories, before he releases the next tinplate traditions catalog.  My $0.02

Joe Gozzo

MartyE posted:

johnstrains posted:

The one item I always passed on that I might consider is the Lionel Lines orange and blue loco and passenger car set.  Always an eye catcher.

Yep.  I'm looking at that too with the 263E engine.  Would look good with my other set...

 

Well I ordered these from The Imperial Train Company.  Apparently they're in stock so I should have them soon!

 Nice, Marty! Looking forward to some pics.

Trainlover160 posted:

A very reliable source that I care not to mention had a very good point. He reminded me of the lawsuit 10 years ago where MTH won a lawsuit and Lionel claimed bankruptcy.

Due to the settlement, Lionel agreed to lisence the tinplate, and the time is now up.

 I had totally forgotten about the lawsuit but it makes perfect sense. Therefore, Mike is probably waiting for things to cool down with high inventories, before he releases the next tinplate traditions catalog.  My $0.02

Joe Gozzo

joe,that makes perfect sence so to speak !

I really don’t care which badge is on them. Only costs a few dollars to buy Repro Lionel badges and plates. I just want to some interesting stuff made.

Steve

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

I really don’t care which badge is on them. Only costs a few dollars to buy Repro Lionel badges and plates. I just want to some interesting stuff made.

Steve

Agreed!

Joeg

it will be very interesting to see over the next couple of months,,how much lct come out of the woodwork with  high prices and the "rare" label on it ,,,,,,since its the last of it,,,,$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$,could be fun

Trainlover160 posted:

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

I really don’t care which badge is on them. Only costs a few dollars to buy Repro Lionel badges and plates. I just want to some interesting stuff made.

Steve

Agreed!

Joeg

Same here.  I can live without the big “L” my tinplate. 

Chris Lonero posted:

Trainlover160 posted:

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

I really don’t care which badge is on them. Only costs a few dollars to buy Repro Lionel badges and plates. I just want to some interesting stuff made.

Steve

Agreed!

Joeg

Same here.  I can live without the big “L” my tinplate. 

 Yes Got just as excited seeing the old purple and blackish tinplate traditions boxes coming in it will be fun to pick that up again

Joe Gozzo

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

I really don’t care which badge is on them. Only costs a few dollars to buy Repro Lionel badges and plates. I just want to some interesting stuff made.

Steve

I am also on board with this. MTH has produced some truly beautiful tinplate repros in Std. Gauge and O--both LCT and Tinplate Traditions--and I definitely would like to see them continue to do so, even if on a more limited basis and irrespective of nameplate. Would love to see some innovative new items not previously made or offered in tinplate, but I won't hold my breath on that one because I realize the costs involved and the overly "picky" nature of hobbyists these days (which tends to limit the potential market for a particular item).

Allan Miller posted:

but I won't hold my breath on that one because I realize the costs involved and the overly "picky" nature of hobbyists these days (which tends to limit the potential market for a particular item).

Allan

I believe we are our own worst enemies when it comes to getting new items done.  I can't imagine going to York as a rep and all you hear all day is complaining from us.  Not that some of it isn't deserved but maybe next time you go to York and see your favorite manufacturer maybe say something about a good experience.

Craignor posted:

I think they have done enough of the Classic Lionel reproductions.

I would like to see MTH make some Modern Standard Gauge like the Harlan Creswell 600e with Proto 3, and bells, whistles, and smoke!

I think an O gauge version of something like this would sell like gangbusters!  (Maybe drop the NYC label)  I could see my 2816s streched out far behind a beauty like this.

Also I think a great feature if feasible would be a quick change option between latch/box coupler and lobster claw.  (Probably not practical giving the different operating mechanisms, unless you gave up the proto-coupler option and went with a manual design.  Then you could changed with a screw and not worry about wires.)

Agreed. Something like a Creswell 600E would pique my interest. I see the current tinplate issue as too many instances of rehashing the same stuff over and over. Offer something fresh and it’ll sell. My guess is that there are plenty of collectors who would help crowd source the cost of the tooling. There are so many opportunites that aren’t being pursued. I wish I had the operational know-how.

Personally, I’ve switched to ACE, Darstaed, ETS and the like. Lionel hit their high-water mark with the Vision Line 700E. They’ve taken the wrong fork in the road ever since. The ‘new’ tinplate catalog by MTH is a major disappointment. Where is the company that offered the tinplate car set and the overhead monorail?

I can’t believe that the subway cars didn’t capture enough interest to reach fruition. Again, try crowd sourcing. Maybe there are enough of us who would pay more than you think?

No matter the packaging, the modern tinplate is very good looking.  However, there are times I prefer to have the option to get a modern tinplate w/ the Lionel or Lionel Lines name on the side.

Here's a shot at the stars... Imagine if MTH used the budgeted money of the expired Lionel Licensing fees and obtained an exclusive tinplate only "Polar Express" license from Warner Brothers.  Hornby just obtained licensing rights for various Warner Brothers content including Harry Potter and DC Super Heroes.

terry hudon posted:

Trainlover160 posted:

A very reliable source that I care not to mention had a very good point. He reminded me of the lawsuit 10 years ago where MTH won a lawsuit and Lionel claimed bankruptcy.

Due to the settlement, Lionel agreed to lisence the tinplate, and the time is now up.

 I had totally forgotten about the lawsuit but it makes perfect sense. Therefore, Mike is probably waiting for things to cool down with high inventories, before he releases the next tinplate traditions catalog.  My $0.02

Joe Gozzo

joe,that makes perfect sence so to speak !

Well.  Not really the way it happened.

I was happy buying MTH Tinplate before the agreement with Lionel and will continue, depending on what they offer.

Steve

I would say if you want the Orange and Blue color schemes, those are ones you will not be able to get.  If that's important.  MTH has done some beautiful pieces regardless of what logo is on the side.  I'm looking forward to the set I just bought.  I think if there is a demand we should see some nice things coming out.  I wonder if something comes up that the Lionel branding works if they could do a "one off" license.

A Tinplate Polar express set with Berkshire and basic passenger train would be an instant hit.  

I would like to see a return of the Olympian in new paint schemes.  Concerning the Lionel/MTH badges or plates... Considering that there's been an emphasis on specific road names without the Lionel badges...take for example the newly announced 400e sets.. I don't think it matters much. One last thought...The price of tinplate increased due to Mike having to pay Lionel a percentage of the sale....I guess we should see the price drop a little bit..right? I know...wishful thinking.

Sunrise

I'm late to the tinplate party so it's a bummer that production seems to be tapering off.  Unlike many of you, I go for the stuff that is prototypical.  I haven't had a chance to collect some of the pieces everyone else is bored with.  Therefore these road name sets aren't my cup of tea. 

And I've been waiting for a Christmas set but that 400E paint scheme looks awful to me.  I'll keep staring at it.  Maybe it will grow on me.  I do like the cars but there is something I really dislike about that engine and tender.  It's probably just as well since I've already spent an obscene amount of money on this stuff in 2018. 

beachhead2 posted:

I'm late to the tinplate party so it's a bummer that production seems to be tapering off.  Unlike many of you, I go for the stuff that is prototypical.  I haven't had a chance to collect some of the pieces everyone else is bored with.  Therefore these road name sets aren't my cup of tea. 

And I've been waiting for a Christmas set but that 400E paint scheme looks awful to me.  I'll keep staring at it.  Maybe it will grow on me.  I do like the cars but there is something I really dislike about that engine and tender.  It's probably just as well since I've already spent an obscene amount of money on this stuff in 2018. 

I know what it is. It is the green wheels! Really turned me off. Wondering if it is the oldaddage pick does not do it justice! 😁

Joe Gozzo

I know what it is. It is the green wheels!

 

You're right about the wheels for sure.  And the black frame bits, and maybe even the white roof.  It just looks too busy to my eye.  And that basic font on the tender "Christmas Express" looks, well, basic!  It seems like it should be script or something.  Anyway, maybe there will be some tweeks with the finished product but it's not something I can preorder. 

I don't want to be a bummer about it though.  I'm definitely getting the 400E blue/brass.  I may get a black one, a gray 392E, and a black w/ orange stripe 390E. 

If the black frame on the 400e Christmas set was red like the rest of the body...it would look much better. The black doesn't fit here.

Sunrise

The Southern set would look great. 

Your right about the Christmas set, the green really throws it off.

Steve

I don't know what it is but the standard gauge classics just look right to me, not to interested in other newer road names, I buy that stuff in o-gauge. But thats just me, I would buy a 600e...black.

I don' have anything against the modern tinplate or standard gauge trains........But for me I want original not a perfect shiny fake. I would rather have a terrible condition original piece than a modern perfect piece. I look at trains the same way you would collect artwork. An original is a piece of art and a modern train is just a modern train.

Dwayne B posted:

I don' have anything against the modern tinplate or standard gauge trains........But for me I want original not a perfect shiny fake. I would rather have a terrible condition original piece than a modern perfect piece. I look at trains the same way you would collect artwork. An original is a piece of art and a modern train is just a modern train.

 

Weren’t the originals shiny when they were made?  I like classic cars, but I like them better well cared for and shiny.  

I respect your opinion, but I also think a 57 Chevy with a 2018 corvette engine is pretty cool too.

Room for both, Me, I’d like a new Coyote 5.0 in a 65 Galaxie withe the 6 speed stick, but I would Never remove an original 427 & 4 spd to do so. That sums it up for me.

Dwayne B posted:

But for me I want original, not a perfect shiny fake.  I would rather have a terrible condition original piece than a modern perfect piece.  I look at trains the same way you would collect artwork.  An original is a piece of art and a modern train is just a modern train.

 

I hear you Dwayne, but if you were ever at the York MTH display, or perhaps your local train shop, &  saw the shiny, gleaming tinplate trains in motion, you would have to love them.  I am not even a tinplate guy, but must say the new ones are attention getters... & especially (for met) the red & green Christmas stuff!  Hey, they are all trains & there is room enough for whatever we all happen to like.    

I live in Arizona and York is on the other side of the country so I have never had the pleasure of attending. We don't even have much in the way of large hobby shops were I live so I can understand what your saying. I realize how beautiful the new Standard gauge and Tinplate trains are. It is a good thing to see how these trains looked almost 100 years ago and without the new stuff we would never know.