The latest Zinc pest discovery

WOW, 50 cars!  That's a bummer Ben, I guess the likelihood of Atlas making good on those is pretty minimal.  Is it only the center beam you have to replace?  I guess it's good that at least the part is available, not like the Lionel JLC GG-1 sideframes!

I own about 25 of those cars & I'm afraid to look. Is it possible to show a photo of one of the worst examples?

You had to pay for a classic defective product parts replacement?  They were not gratis?  Why wouldn't  such a problem be subject to manufacture's recall.  I seem to remember these hoppers had this problem years ago.  I have seen them at train shows for give away prices.

Considering their heavy weight what do you use to pull a string of these cars?

Looks like a product for a 3D printer.

Here is a question, but it may have already been answered. Could a person save that center beam by removing it, and then saturating it with some type of super glue that would soak in and stabilize the part? Just trying to think of a way to minimize the replacement cost.

Jeff

I think many people have tried to rescue zinc pest affected parts, I don't know of any that have succeeded.

I checked 6 of mine & I didn't notice any issues. The whole car is diecast. I would still like to see a photo.

ironman1 posted:

I checked 6 of mine & I didn't notice any issues. The whole car is diecast. I would still like to see a photo.

Thats not the same car  You have the fishbelly hopper if its all die cast  These are the 55 ton two bay hoppers

Someone here told me to send my RB trucks back to Atlas for replacement. I even emailed them first to get an RA. I sent them in and never heard another word. I could have at least used the wheel sets in a scene!

 I think the importers won't stand behind defective metal castings unless they fail right away. Maybe not even then?

Engineer-Joe posted:

 I think the importers won't stand behind defective metal castings unless they fail right away. Maybe not even then?

And of course, zinc pest never happens right away!

FWIW, MTH stood behind the RK PRR Torpedo tender casting dying of zinc pest, they replaced it many years after the release.

OK, to advoid a shark attack, stay out of the eater.

So, to advoid zinc rot, stay awsy from zinc.

Thetr should be other alloys thatno not self destruct!

Here are some pics of what I mean  I wasnt aware of the problem until I removed one of the center beams

First here is the car upside down after a replacement  I havent put all the underside detail back on yet

This is a brand new center beam  Those raised round things on both sides are what the trucks are mounted to

This is what was originally broken  The little round thing was on the center round circle but broke off and detached the truck

This is whats left of two center beams that I took off  Look at the castings  You will see little hairline cracks in the pieces that arent apart already

mowingman posted:

Here is a question, but it may have already been answered. Could a person save that center beam by removing it, and then saturating it with some type of super glue that would soak in and stabilize the part? Just trying to think of a way to minimize the replacement cost.

Jeff

I dont think that would work as the castings are cracked right through not just on the top

I have no pest on my PRR circle keystone or Berwind (BWCX and NRBX reporting marks) 55 ton hoppers.  However, I have noted zinc pest on a pair of C&O 55 ton hoppers.  The center beams and truck mounts seem okay and the pest is on the bottom bay doors and the bars that connect them.  Both C&O hoppers have the problem.

I think that picture tells the story Ben, talk about destruction!  What does Atlas nick you for the beams?

Wow, that is unbelievable! As mentioned earlier I believe the cars I have are the full diecast Fishbelly Hoppers & I haven't spotted any issues with the ones I've checked.

Thanks for sending the pictures. That's a shame. I sure hope Atlas makes good on your investment.

Good luck,

Joe

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think that picture tells the story Ben, talk about destruction!  What does Atlas nick you for the beams?

The beams are 9.95 each  

This is the car in question  Its a plastic body car with plastic add on parts  The center beam and hopper doors are the only die cast parts

Until we get away fro China this will continue. This is why China made products are less expensive. They may meet our designs but simply do not use materials of equal value. Atlas, Lionel and MTH can trace the product run and should offer no charge replacements. 

This is a Zinc question unrelated to the hoppers. Is it possible for zinc to corrode when stored in high humidity areas but not be zinc rot. My early MTH steamer has a spot that has slight corrosion. no where else. Im assuming its a zinc blend and not pure zinc.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

 I think the importers won't stand behind defective metal castings unless they fail right away. Maybe not even then?

And of course, zinc pest never happens right away!

FWIW, MTH stood behind the RK PRR Torpedo tender casting dying of zinc pest, they replaced it many years after the release.

Unfortunately, IIRC MTH did not stand behind the zinc-pest issue with the couplers on some of their premier passenger cars from '99-01 that disintegrated after the 1 yr warranty.  Rather they offered to sell replacement couplers that cost IIRC $25 per pair which added up if you had 4 or 5 car sets to replace.

I have many of these hoppers.  In fact I have this very Rutland one.  I'll have to inspect them for this.

I’m worried to even look at mine. I’m having issues with the steel reefers from Atlas in same production period. The part that holds the truck to the body is warping/crumbled on multiple cars of mine. I have 4 cars out of service right now and of there are no parts on Atlas website to replace with. 

reminds me of the Weaver models troop sleeper with the disintegrating floors. Yes, I agree that this zinc problem is never going to completely go away. its disturbing enough to see your models crumbling before your eyes and even worse when the manufactures dose not make good on their products.

mowingman posted:

Here is a question, but it may have already been answered. Could a person save that center beam by removing it, and then saturating it with some type of super glue that would soak in and stabilize the part? Just trying to think of a way to minimize the replacement cost.

Jeff

I thought about something similar, to treat the diecast pilots on my K-Line EP-5. These had a big problem with crumbling.  I managed to get replacements for them, but haven't checked them in quite a while. I had thought about using a small brush and brushing on a layer of JB Weld on the inside of the pilots to give them extra strength. Haven't done it yet, but I can't see that it would hurt anything to try it.

SuperChief posted:

I’m worried to even look at mine. I’m having issues with the steel reefers from Atlas in same production period. The part that holds the truck to the body is warping/crumbled on multiple cars of mine. I have 4 cars out of service right now and of there are no parts on Atlas website to replace with. 

I only have one of the Atlas SFRD steel reefers and both body bolsters swelled and disintegrated on it.  There are replacement bolsters available, 3D printed from Shapeways:

https://www.shapeways.com/prod...ght-car-body-bolster

These worked great on my car.

Ben

Thanks for championing the cause for many of us and the description and pictures will help us all.  Interested in how Atlas O responds to this.

Those 2 Broken cars I included with the 10 good ones sort of worked out to be an warning to the real root cause of the problem.  (The broken cars were pre-disclosed) 

Good speaking with you today

Steve

When I first was made aware of this issue 10 plus years ago I was still in my accumulation stage with about 18 unopened four car cases of Atlas product.  Due to initial reluctance of the importer to positively address the problem I sold all of them.   Just do not have the patience to deal with temporary / disappearing train parts. 

Beautiful cars but not for me.

Well, the alternatives to Zinc (die-cast, Zamak, etc.) are brass and plastic.  If you can live with plastic (i.e., non-structural application), 3-D printing holds a lot of hope for the future.  More hope than getting help from some manufacturers, IMO 

@Hawkshaw it's definitely possible for die-cast metal to develop localized exterior corrosion from being stored in a high-humidity environment.  I believe zinc tabs are used as sacrificial anodes on salt-water marine drives.  In this application they corrode completely away!  Remember, O-gauge trains are indoor pets!

I've noticed that some locos are especially susceptible, perhaps depending on whether the castings were chemically treated at the factory, and how they are painted.  I don't believe the exterior corrosion can be fully removed once it starts.  I'm sure you've seen an old penny (back when they were made of pure copper) with green crystals on it.  You can remove the green crystals using a vinegar bath, but I don't think you're supposed do this to a rare coin, because you're actually removing some of the copper!

I suppose you could media-blast a corroded loco shell down to bare metal and repaint.  Inevitably there would be some loss of detail, and the pitting would remain, kind of like a woman who suffered from acne in high school laying a heavy foundation over her ravaged skin.   There is probably some kind of sealer that you should apply to the zinc after blasting, and before the paint.  I know that some locos receive this kind of treatment at the factory, but I don't know what a home hobbyist would use for sealer.

The exterior corrosion you're asking about is different from the classic Zinc Pest (intragranular corrosion) that comes from a contaminated batch of alloy.  If there was excess lead in the mix, the metal will continue to react with itself until it crumbles to dust.  All of Ben's hoppers didn't fail because of humidity (although I suppose moisture and a wide range of temperature changes could speed up the process.)

So sorry to see/hear this Ben, hope you're able to get at least some of them back on the rails!

Looks like die cast zinc is trying to give plastic a better name.

Charlie

Wow, Ben, I am so sorry to hear and see this! That is a very unhappy discovery!

I am curious to know- there is mention made of the zinc pest problem with various MTH/Atlas/Lionel past products; how about Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD? Their products are certainly pricier than the other major manufacturers. Have people experienced zinc pest problems with their products or is part of their higher pricing a better, more controlled manufacturing process?

If the zinc alloy castings are manufactured properly, they are exceptionally durable. And the number of instances of zinc pest is minuscule in comparison to the overall production of zinc castings in our hobby from Asian production.

The problem in China is quality control involving small subcontractors for certain parts such as trucks, couplers and frames. Some of these model-train subcontractors operate out of garage-sized facilities that are far from state of the art. Some, not all, of these proprietors are either sloppy or indifferent in the production process for these castings.

The low-volume nature of these parts productions is what prompts the primary contractor to seek outside help.

Part of the answer would be for China to inspect and regulate small contractors. I suspect that’s not a government priority right now.

Also, for those who continually assail China for its quality production, I again have to point out that the zinc pest problem was also prevalent in toy and model train production in the prewar and postwar eras. Lionel’s 700E Hudson also suffered from zinc pest more than 80 years ago.

American manufacturers had to learn how to properly produce zinc castings, religiously avoiding impurities and performing best-practice standards. They eventually succeeded. China can, too, if it wants.

As for other options, well, ... . Let’s just say zinc alloys are used in so many products, usually of high quality, that I feel comfortable saying manufacturers rely on it as more useful than other choices. It’s their business, and I’m sure they have considered all the options.

Theo posted:

Wow, Ben, I am so sorry to hear and see this! That is a very unhappy discovery!

I am curious to know- there is mention made of the zinc pest problem with various MTH/Atlas/Lionel past products; how about Sunset/3rd Rail/GGD? Their products are certainly pricier than the other major manufacturers. Have people experienced zinc pest problems with their products or is part of their higher pricing a better, more controlled manufacturing process?

Sunset steam engines are brass not die cast.  They havent been making diesels that long so it remains to be seen with certain die cast parts

Last week I picked up an Atlas 40’ AAR box car and the truck fell off.  The bolster had disintegrated.  So I checked others from the same time period and found 2 more in pieces. Both of those were in the box. I’m afraid to keep looking.

I had an AAR boxcar on the shelf a few years back and noticed the ladders and grab irons fell off in a pile of crumbs.

Atlas O CRUMBLERS. I stay away from those Atlas cars. I was able to strip and re-use irons & ladders from Weaver or MTH designated scrap load cars.

Sorry for your loss. 

Looks like a good candidate for custom sheet metal stamping either alloy steel or Aluminum.

Maybe Atlas needs to investigate if some American tool and die metal fabrication company could provide a reasonable cost replacement.

Ted S posted:

Well, the alternatives to Zinc (die-cast, Zamak, etc.) are brass and plastic.  If you can live with plastic (i.e., non-structural application), 3-D printing holds a lot of hope for the future.  More hope than getting help from some manufacturers, IMO 

<snip>

Shapeways will print in some metals. Ought to be OK for things like underframes. Cost is a different problem.

As long as there are those among us that expect diecast products, we will have to deal with this issue. I don't understand the aversion to plastic. Plastic doesn't corrode, it's durable and it is cheaper to make. Sorry to hear about your issue. I think many of us have been bitten by the zinc pest from time to time.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

 I think the importers won't stand behind defective metal castings unless they fail right away. Maybe not even then?

And of course, zinc pest never happens right away!

FWIW, MTH stood behind the RK PRR Torpedo tender casting dying of zinc pest, they replaced it many years after the release.

MTH also promised to replace these affected P5a boxcab shells next time they catalog that locomotive. I have my name on a waiting list at MTH. At the time this come to light about 3 years ago, MTH asked us to please be patient. This made me sick when I discovered mine was affected. I hope I am wrong but I sorta think the plan is to just never catalog this loco ever again. That would be a big let down from MTH. If any of you guys have one of these please call MTH and remind them to make good on their promise. Going on 3 years now.....How much patience am I (we) expected to have?...….Check out the pic where the shell has lifted away from the frame. You can see the internal wiring.  How disappointing. Sorry if I hijacked the post but it is zinc rot after all.

Holy Cow JINI5 that’s horrible! I hope you eventually get a new shell.

I thought I had dodged the zinc pest bullet but when I recently looked at my Weaver troop car it appears to be trying to explode while it’s in the package. Most of my Atlas cars are packed away but I have 6 of the same hoppers (different road name) that Ben has. I fully expect them to fall apart when I take them out of the box. This way if they don’t I will be pleasantly surprised! 

The problems with die cast parts are not confined to the model railroad hobby. I am also an antique car hobbyist where the problem is well known. I once had a 1967 Oldsmobile The power door locks were vacuum operated and controlled by a manifold device hidden behind the glove compartment. This was a zinc alloy die casting that fell apart in my hand. I could not find any replacements so I carefully put it back together and encapsulated it in epoxy. It  worked fine. Incidently it s sometimes called pot metal because its been said that anything left at the end of the day was thrown into the mix.