The REAL reason why I despise Fantasy Schemes...

POTRZBE:  I know two women who do NOT like pink locos, and I bet they are not the

only ones...they do not like to be patronized.  However, if you find a set with a Lionel

one in the bottom of a junk box at an obscure estate sale, remember P.T. Barnum's

words, and grab it for a lucrative quick turnover.

Is there some rule I'm not aware of that says a person who does three rail "toy" trains can't have a desire for prototypical equipment?

I've seen some guys do some pretty nice work on this here very forum making undersized "traditional" toy trains appear realistic enough to make you take a second look before even noticing the third rail.

Rusty

quote:

 If you are a prototype modeler, you don't want to

have to guess...if some beer car reefer made is for some microbrewery, that has been in business five years, and that never came close to trucking their beer around the corner much less loading cases of it for across the state, existed

Wouldn't a Prototype modeler know what was correct for what he or she models?

POTRZBE:  I know two women who do NOT like pink locos, and I bet they are not the

only ones...they do not like to be patronized. 

It was 1957.  Patronizing women (and everyone else) was OK then.

The hoppers you are referring to are Railking and the Railking trains are traditional toy trains where anything goes.

When I see fantasy items in the Premier line,I cringe a bit.From the beginning,MTH Premier was supposed to be much more faithful to the prototype. I just do my research and buy what suits my needs. Atlas O does a great job with research and execution. My freight car collection is now 90% Atlas,5% MTH,4% Lionel and 1% K-Line.

Ricky

Hello POTRZBE.........

You're right !!!!!!! some women don't like pink loco's as i am one of them too.  I wouldn't paint my 1970 ford ranger pink either.  Williams does make a good looking pink GG1 and 2-6-4 sets but not for me.

the woman who loves the S.F.#5021

Tiffany

not gonna be long winded here but i really like my LV trainmaster in the snowbird paint.oh and my little world just would be the same wothout lionel lines.

Dave

Dipise is how I leanred to spell in Caliofrnia Public Educqtion...

I think the problem in part is that many people have what they want. There are many authentic paint schemes for the NYC, Pennsylvania, and AT & SF that have been done. My question is...what is wrong with asking for an authentic Great Northern hopper? The Big Sky Blue paint scheme is easy to do... I'm not asking it to be authentic down to the last rivet and car number. I'm asking for something more passable and closer to the real thing.

The United States has lots of railroad history and many roads that MTH has not touched in either Premier or RK line. Heck I know I'm pushing buttons because for a lot of people Lionel is sacred...but even in the 1950's the 6464 box cars were known for their realism. Many paint schemes on those freight cars come very close.

MTH on these fantasy paint schemes doesn't miss the boat! They miss the lake, river and ocean as well!

Instead of those kind of hoppers I cited...I'd love to open a catalog and have something like the following:

Nickel Plate Road Hopper with Coal (Black)

Green Bay and Western Hopper with Coal (Yellow)

Wabash Hopper with Coal (Black or Brown)

Santa Fe Hopper with Paint scheme variation

Something THAT gets closer to reality. It seems like the fantasy schemes get worse with the passing of time.

Now if I were a NYC, Pennsy or ATSF fan....I'd be sitting pretty. I wonder how many people on the forum who modeled the ATSF would buy MTH rolling stock if their hoppers were nothing but warbonnet.

This thread is as much amusement as a Monday could hope for!

I enjoy the "fantasy" paint schemes...most of what Orange/Blue and Purple/Yellow produce these days...for the mental/facial contortions they incite when I show a new catalog to a rivet-counting, paint-matching, nit-picking flagophile customer.

My favorite expose' a few years ago was the first ad showing the WBB PINK GG1 set to a customer who bleeds Brunswick Green.  It was classic!  I don't believe he's yet fully recovered from that unveiling!!

Kudos to the 'fantasy' schemers! 

BTW, did you know that some of the hobby's fantasy schemes actually precede the 1:1 prototypes?   

Here's a little bit of fantasy that I consider acceptable.  In S scale, we'll never have the variety and selection you O gauge folks have, so sometimes we get a modified product in order to represent something popular.

Behold, the Texas Special E8's:

S Scale doesn't have an E7, so the manufacturer, American Models, added the fluted siding panels to their standard E8 and gave them the appropriate paint job.

The manufacturer didn't give these engines the E7 numbers, but DID use the correct numbers of a pair of (unfluted) MKT E8's that were purchased as back-up power for the Texas Special.

By making the appropriate changes to their stock model and more importantly correct paint and lettering adjusted for the model, we have a little bit of fantasy, a little bit of reality without compromising integrity of the prototype's classic appearance.

Rusty

That fact is: you want a MTH subway graffiti set w/your (gift recipient name) on it? That could be available ... for a price. Want custom decorated, weathered items? buildings? All that is available from artists/craftsmen that exhibit their work right here on the various forums. Not interested in paying fair market value for those services?  I know 2 train clubs in N.J. that have master craftsmen that can teach those skills, perhaps for as little as a year's club membership. What we hear again & again on this forum & elsewhere is: make my fantasy/wishes come true ... at my price & my convenience. That is not how wishes work & become realized, in the real world or free market systems.

It is kind of fun to read, isn't it? 

Yesterday I saw a Lionel Homer & Bart Simpson boxcar at a Christmas shop.  Kind of neat.

Have not been made in RailKing for the Wisconsin Central

Cylindrical Hopper

PS-2-CD Low Sided Hopper

Open-Top Hopper

gondola

The Grand Trunk Western had Three-Bay, Offset side, open-top hoppers, and they were only in the Oxide Red or Dark Brown body colors in the 150's and 1960's graphics. Weaver Models used a black and white photograph resulting in a Black Body for their GTW offset open-top hoppers. Weaver has not yet made the correct body color for the GTW offset hoppers.

Andrew

I think I have a few left-over Penn Central steam loco decals around somewhere.

Any of you fellow old timers remember the ruckus back in the dim past when Walthers started selling those decals? The histrionics over a bit of fantasy is nothing new in the hobby.

Jim

Boy, I sure hope none of you ever see some of my redone "fantasy" military rolling stock. I'll be shot at sunrise!

Larry

There were very few open-top hoppers repainted in the 1967-1970 scheme, because to find them one has to sift through hundreds of photos and photo books. The only GN open-top hoppers found so far in that time period's scheme were Black with White graphics. 

Big Sky Blue was used on Covered Hoppers, flat cars, box cars, High-Sided Wood Chip Gondolas, and Cabooses. The regular gondolas and open-top hoppers were in black.

Burlington Northern ordered new open-hoppers after the 1970 merger, which replaced the offset side hoppers from the 1940's and 1950's.

Andrew

Toy trains are toy trains.  I like fantasy paint jobs.  Guys, our trains run with small electric motors and not huge diesel power plants.  They run on 3 rail track.  To me the hobby has been fun.  Have fun and enjoy.

Well, Marty at least one cop won't shoot another one.

Well... if you don't like it, repaint it yourself into your favorite roadname. That's how I got my start many years ago. Stop the complaining and do something about it that benefits you!! It's not rocket science - I'd rather do it myself anyway..

"To me the hobby has been fun.  Have fun and enjoy."

Marty,

I wholeheartedly agree with you and think that in large part that is occuring with this thread.  Sharing points of view and having a good time.  Bo 

Visit my website Bo's Trains at http://www.bostrains.com

Taste is subjective, not everyone likes the same things.   But this is a hobby, and as such it needs to offer a variety of items that appeal to everyone involved. 

I use a very simple method to deal with offerings I don’t care for…..I don’t buy them!!!   Very simple!!!

There needs to something here for everyone.….just enjoy what you like

Think what we didn't have not that many years ago. I'm happy with what's out there. Would I like more Milwaukee? You bet. Am I going to complain? No. Don

I would love a what if series.  How about a SP GS-4 painted in NYC colors or a Dreyfuss painted in SP Daylight colors.  I would buy one and I know Gerry Morlitz would.  The hobby is about fun.

My wife enjoys this hobby as much as I do and she has...GASP!....two pink trains, one Williams pink girls set and one RMT Breast Cancer set. She loves them along with the Hershey's train that I bought her for her birthday. She loves the pink trains and club members and her friends look for pink automobiles to go on her layout due to the fact that she is a breast cancer survivor. These trains all get people of all ages to come talk to our group at train shows and they are great conversation starters. My wife and I like the "non prototypical and unacceptable" paint schemes and offerings since we play with toy trains.

I feel some of the frustration of the original poster in this thread and I agree to an extent, but I don't despise anybody here.

However, I think the problem (which has been referenced in this thread) is that the manufacturers are trying to market to (1) model railroaders and (2) toy train collectors from the same catalog!  You'll never please both groups at the same time.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't presume to tell Lionel or MTH, etc how to select which train models to make.  They know their business and I don't.

For sure can't never claim that Pepsi, Coca-Cola/ Fanta or Mcdonald's are fantasy paint scheme

May be the Girls Train issue would have been different if Lionel had just picked another colour.

Same for the Boys Train too I guess. Funny thing is that pink is the selling colour when it comes to girls toys. Just have a look at the Barbie floor in your toy shop, not to mention  My Little Pony and many other stuff.

Fantasy schemes: I can understand if you don't like that, being a prototype modeller.

Repainting: may be it's a niche, bringing out unpainted items. I think I've seen that a few years ago, a set of F3's just in plain grey. But I don't know the market is big enough to pay for itself.

Kieffer

Well, I recently bought my four year old granddaughter her first toy train set (a remote Thomas).  It is not pink.  She does not do pink.  As her Mom says, pink is the color of Pepto-Bismol.

quote:

However, I think the problem (which has been referenced in this thread) is that the manufacturers are trying to market to (1) model railroaders and (2) toy train collectors from the same catalog!  You'll never please both groups at the same time.

As has been discussed on this board at length, few collectors buy newly made trains to enhance their collections. Plenty of model railroaders enjoy fantasy schemes.

What did the legendary John Allen model?

Here is a link to a web site dedicated to John Allen and the Gore and Daphetid.

http://gdlines.com/

As for me, one of my favorite railroads is the Lionel Line. On the other hand, I've never cared for Lionelville. But I am more a collector than an operator. If I was I model railroader, I'd be into HO.

I have no problem with fantasy schemes.  The toy train manufacturers are after all just toy manufacturers.  Their customers make up both the serious prototypical collector  and a base of other people who simply like what they like and don't give a hoot about real or imaginary.  What is really nice is that orange and purple do an excellent job of servicing both types of customers.  

I wonder how many high end prototypical products were developed as a result of revenues derived from Polar Express or Harry Potter.

I have some fantasy items along with the normal but I can tell you this.   When people see the trains, they love the M&M stuff, circus trains and the kids absolutely love the Thomas trains.

After all, all this stuff is  just toys and meant to give enjoyment.  IMO we have the best of both worlds, real and imaginary.

Ed

You mean to tell me that my Elvis boxcars are not prototypical?

But then if it wasn't for Lionel Lines we might not be where we are at today

Oh no, next you'll be telling me that Lionelville is not a real town in Ohio.

Attn LOCOLAWYER -are you seeing this!  I think we have a huge case here.  Seems like my dad and now me have been getting ripped off since 1952.  This could be worth billions!

Ed

Personally, I don't mind fantasy schemes, because they contribute to the financial health of the manufacturers, which in turn allows them to make the products I want and, when the economy is good, invest in new tooling to make an even greater variety of products.  I even buy some of the fantasy items (for the sole reason being that I like them).

I can understand the desire for more prototypical models, but I do think that it is a false assumption that if manufacturers produced fewer fantasy items, then they would produce more prototypical items.

How many people bother to contact the manufacturers, in a respectful manner (rude correspondence often ends up in the circular filing container on the floor, or the virtual equivalent), and offer suggestions as to what they would like to see?  And how many offer to help with some of the necessary research?  It takes time and sometimes-scarce resources to track down information on some of the smaller/fallen-flag roads.  In this economy, the manufacturers need input and evidence that there is a market for an item before they will make that item.  If people wait for their desired items to be catalogued without ever lifting a finger to let the manufacturers know what they want, then they may end up waiting for a very long time.

Andy

I fully agree.  That is absolutely a false assumption.

Good point, Andy. Speaking from experience, I personally have assembled information packets featuring photographs, diagrams and general information pertaining to various pieces of prototype equipment for a number of manufacturers. Having supplemented my submissions with cordial and informed follow up, I can tell you my efforts have resulted in or largely contributed to the introduction of a number of prototypically accurate O gauge models in recent years.

The key to success is an appropriate approach consisting of the necessary research presented in an organized, informative and socially acceptable manner. Complaining in an on-line setting is counter productive and compromises one's credibility.

Bob     

I think it is important to note that the original poster has submitted proper requests to the manufacturer for prototypically correct items, and championed the cause for the Milwaukee Road S-2 Northern and a Timken 4 Aces locomotive. And as explained in forum posts past, he has researched those locomotives and gone as far as hand delivering that information to the manufacturers at York.

Now, as I've thought about this more, I think what bothers me isn't so much the branded trains - M&M's, Harley Davidson, Bart Simpson, Hogwarts, etc. That's advertising and it makes sense, and has a broader appeal, even to those outside the general train hobby. Lionel Lines doesn't bother me in the least either.

What bothers me is waiting for an item to be produced in a particular road name, and then when something is produced in that road name it comes with goofy graphics or is painted in a non-prototypical color. For instance, MTH made a Nickel Plate hopper in the same blue color as the Alco PA's a few years back. There isn't much NKP rolling stock out there, and when something did get produced it was produced in blue and not a traditional black paint. I'm not a rivet counter, I realize they are toys, it was just disappointing more than anything else because it wasn't what I hoped for.

For those that can and do paint their own cars it may scratch the itch for what they are looking for (at least that's true for me). And it's opened up a whole new avenue of the hobby and taught me how to do things I didn't think I could with painting and detailing. But that's not everyone either, there are many who just want to run it right out of the box.

This hobby is wide ranging and that's a good thing. I don't begrudge anyone for running what they like, but I do understand the disappointment, of seeing "fantasy" paint on items when your hoping for something a little closer to the real thing.

I can understand the frustration, and it's a very legitimate perspective, no doubt.

But this is the difference between the view of the hobbiest and that of the business . If you were running a toy train company you know you have a limit to how many versions you can produce and manage, and you would keep foremost in your mind that your retailers have only so much shelf space.  So you would target to produce stuff you know will sell in volume, quickly.  You might estimate that you could sell, say, 500 Milwaukee Road S-2s or Timken 4 Aces in the next year, whereas if you paint the same loco Santa Fe or Southern RR you might be able to sell 2,000, or if you do it as the Polar Express or the "Dancing with the Stars Express" or some other theme-de-jour, up to 2500.   What are you going to go with?  You want to make money.  You leave the small market niches to companies like 3rd Rail, who don't really compete with you and you would go for volume and low risk . .