There's a Prototype for Everything

D500 posted:

The Mt Hood Railroad's tiny Mikado #1:

So, it's not only a possible prototype, but, considering its size and reporting marks, it's a possible RailKing prototype.

I would like to see manufacturers make scale-sized O gauge models of small steam engines such as Mount Hood #1, although I doubt that they will. They would be less expensive than the larger engines and could be run on less than O-72 curves. This type of engine is often done in 1:48 On30, as seen by the Bachmann 2-8-0 in the photo below. The engine/tender length is less than 13 inches and it runs on 22-inch radius curves. A 3-rail O gauge version, even though longer, could probably run on O-36.

MELGAR

Just for comparison purposes:

Rusty

D500 posted:

 

So, it's not only a possible prototype, but, considering its size and reporting marks, it's a possible RailKing prototype.

No way it's a "RailKing"! The tender isn't oversize!

In a convention, l spoke to Bachmann about making 3 rail versions of their On30 locos, several of which l would jump on.  They considered, this several years ago, that market (three rail) too competitive.  How is it too competitive, when nobody is left, like K-Line, who wants to make anything but Big Boys? Where are the small locos like cited above?

I would love to see more small steam locos on the market but the fact that  locomotive purchasers "must have or I won't buy it "list includes ... TMCC/DCS,  massive indoor air polluting chuffing smoke units , whistle steam, stereo surround sound systems, tender smoke, steam chest smoke, full lighting packages, swinging bells, waving engineers...did I forget anything ? Is exactly why you won't see any small locos made!!!!!

Dave Funk has a point:  the people who demand all the electronic felgercarb on their engines are one roadblock in the way of decent small engines.  Another, according to every manufacturer/imported who has ever said anything on the subject, is that they won't/can't/shan't make the engines appreciably cheaper than the huge monsters, so people, thinking they have to get their money's worth, will choose big over small every time.

The squeaky wheels get the grease, and those of us who prefer simple, smaller, economical engines get the grief.

Probably the closest thing in 3-rail you're going to see that's a small "road" engine and not a switcher or tank engine is the MTH 2-8-0:

Even then, the tender is somewhat too tall in order to squeeze the electronics in.

Rusty

In my opinion, Dave Funk and PALALLIN have it exactly correct. The proliferation of control systems, whistle steam, swinging bells and other extraneous "features" runs up the costs of O gauge to where the customer base for small locomotives is not large enough to support investment in newly-tooled scale models. I run my trains conventionally on small layouts and want only sound and maybe speed control. Bachmann's On30 models are a good example of this and Atlas O also offers conventional versions of some engines in their Trainman line at an attractive price. I wonder if Sunset/3rd Rail could consider this type of model.

MELGAR

MELGAR posted:

In my opinion, Dave Funk and PALALLIN have it exactly correct. The proliferation of control systems, whistle steam, swinging bells and other extraneous "features" runs up the costs of O gauge to where the customer base for small locomotives is not large enough to support investment in newly-tooled scale models. I run my trains conventionally on small layouts and want only sound and maybe speed control. Bachmann's On30 models are a good example of this and Atlas O also offers conventional versions of some engines in their Trainman line at an attractive price. I wonder if Sunset/3rd Rail could consider this type of model.

MELGAR

3rd Rail has had reservations available for Sierra 38, a small 2-6-6-2 for what seems like forever.

Even with "Low quantity production" it hasn't reached yet the "magic number."

Although, in 2008 they offered an SP 2-6-0 and a CP 4-6-0 that met the required numbers, although it took a couple of years to bear fruit:

Rusty

Lionel has done Moguls too. These actually run.

Weaver and 3rd Rail have both done small 2-8-0s

Pete

Dave Funk posted:

I would love to see more small steam locos on the market but the fact that  locomotive purchasers "must have or I won't buy it "list includes ... TMCC/DCS,  massive indoor air polluting chuffing smoke units , whistle steam, stereo surround sound systems, tender smoke, steam chest smoke, full lighting packages, swinging bells, waving engineers...did I forget anything ? Is exactly why you won't see any small locos made!!!!!

HO modelers are also demanding all the bells and whistles and steam chef.  They are getting it with off the shelf ready to run models.  MTH and many others make these models at affordable prices.  I don't think it is the cost of the electronics that drives O gauge prices but it is rather the size of the market.  Production runs in the smaller scales are several thousand and perhaps more units while O gauge production runs seem to be in the hundreds or even less.  Thus an O gauge model is going to cost about the same whether or not it has all the bells and whistles.  

We would have more models in O gauge if we had a larger demand for O gauge models.  I was at the National Train Show in Kansas City last week.  There was not a single O gauge modular layout at the show.  This includes On30 modules.  Lego layouts were well represented as were modules from Z to HO gauge.  

NH Joe

I agree with Rusty on the 2-8-0s and Pete on the 2-6-0s, although I think the Sierra #38 2-6-6-2 may be too large and expensive. Also, the Mount Hood #1 logging engine likely has smaller drivers than mainline Consolidations and Moguls and thus might be smaller. For me, the MTH Premier LIRR H-3 is sized and priced well.

MELGAR

I would definitely like to see some of these pop up.

Big Jim posted:

D500 posted:

 

So, it's not only a possible prototype, but, considering its size and reporting marks, it's a possible RailKing prototype.

No way it's a "RailKing"! The tender isn't oversize!

I think that Big Jim caught my thrust here - I found it amusing that it's just a real loco lettered "MTH RR", from back in the day - before Mr. Wolf was even born. In fact, it is actually lettered "MT.H RR", if you want to be picky, but, you don't. And Jim, you are right - the loco/tender look way too in proportion for many RK steamers.

It is probably mentioned above - I just scanned the posts - but one reason, maybe the reason, that smaller steam is not seen more often is that the cost of getting a 4-4-0 to the dealer shelves and marketed approaches the large units' costs in design, engineering, parts supply, electronics and assembly (maybe even more, there) - but those who want the little stuff want to pay little prices based on weight and inches, not enough for it to make sense to the sellers in many cases. RK and the like is a little different: more in-common parts, less applied detail, simpler electronics - and a much greater usage over time in products that the less-critical RK customer base will accept and gladly buy.

I like the little stuff, too. 

"massive indoor air polluting chuffing smoke units"  - it's not smoke, it's vapor. No "pollution", please.

=========

Actually, at the start, all I hoped was that others might post shots of unlikely and amusing "prototypes", too. I guess not. Too bad. It would beat "debate".

Three-railers aren't the only O-scalers wishing that manufacturers would put out more small locos. At least some two-railers are wising up and realizing that they aren't going to be able to run the big, fancy 2-10-2s and heavy articulateds around limited-space shelf layouts and the modular layouts likely to be more and more prevalent as fewer and fewer people have the space for mega-layouts.

The trouble is that it's difficult to guess what smaller steam locomotives would be popular with enough people to make it profitable to produce. I might think that the SP's Atlantic lines moguls and ten-wheelers might be nice, as would the Katy's 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s, but the O scale market in Texas is relatively small, and I fear they'd have limited appeal to the larger O scale markets in other parts of the US.

I'm trying to think of a small 20th century steamer that has crowd appeal and am drawing a blank.

I think Bachmann had a stroke of genius when they came out with commonplace 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s that showed up on a lot of different prototype railroads for HO. I fear that formula probably wouldn't work in O: there just aren't that many of us. 

Mister_Lee posted:

I'm trying to think of a small 20th century steamer that has crowd appeal and am drawing a blank.

Well, misses the 20th century by 9 years (built in 1891,) but:

But because of her movie work, you could letter her for just about any railroad and get away with it...

And even "doll her up" for some old timey railroadin'

Rusty

My comments were about the physical size needed to get all that stuff on board the loco.

Lionel has done some smaller steam ; mogul, atlantic and 2-8-0's with smoke and tmcc and sound they are much less expensive than a 4-8-4 and big boys and seem to sell well so there is market demand for them.

I dislike MTH's small steam because of the grossly oversized tenders used with them, to my eye it ruins an otherwise nice loco.

A generic small Baldwin loco like Bachmann does in HO would be the ideal candidate for 3 rail and 2 rail O. It could be of modular construction so a steel cab could be exchanged for a wood cab, smokebox fronts could have several headlight /class light placements ,tenders could have interchangeable oil bunkers or coal loads, several smokestack options and all these goodies could be packed with loco to allow owner to create whatever they desire. This has been done for years by Bachmann in Largescale and On30

If a vapor/ smoke system fogs a room and causes asthma symptoms to happen

that fits MY definition of pollution!!   But to each his own!!

Dave Funk posted:

My comments were about the physical size needed to get all that stuff on board the loco.

Lionel has done some smaller steam ; mogul, atlantic and 2-8-0's with smoke and tmcc and sound they are much less expensive than a 4-8-4 and big boys and seem to sell well so there is market demand for them.

I dislike MTH's small steam because of the grossly oversized tenders used with them, to my eye it ruins an otherwise nice loco.

A generic small Baldwin loco like Bachmann does in HO would be the ideal candidate for 3 rail and 2 rail O. It could be of modular construction so a steel cab could be exchanged for a wood cab, smokebox fronts could have several headlight /class light placements ,tenders could have interchangeable oil bunkers or coal loads, several smokestack options and all these goodies could be packed with loco to allow owner to create whatever they desire. This has been done for years by Bachmann in Largescale and On30

If a vapor/ smoke system fogs a room and causes asthma symptoms to happen

that fits MY definition of pollution!!   But to each his own!!

And you want to know why it won't work in O, plastic.   See this post would-3-railers-accept-plastic-steam-engines .

Gene Anstine

I really do think that if Lionel had such great success on their Heisler(with the spark arrester), that they could move into making some of the older locomotives that had the same spark arresters. One thing I love is smoke, and most of the 4-4-0's I've seen Lionel produce don't smoke(that I know of).

I believe that if they were to pursue making smaller steam(as stated here) they would have a great market for it. Camelback's have always been around(though I don't care for them) and they sell. It has to be just more than the odd looking engine, but more so because it can run on anything.

Ryan is always open to suggestion and I already have a few things in mind that I want to ask him about at York. I know that he will naturally listen to what everyone says, but would be tight lipped and not offer anything if they were working on it, plus be cordial to what we all have to say.

I know I had mentioned some time last year before the October York show that I wish the manufacturers had an online suggestion thing were you could plug in any locomotive type, configuration and suggest it. Road names would be something I suppose we would have to fill in as I would wager trying to plug in every configuration to road names might blow up the site.