Thoughts about Lionel locomotives on the secondary market

It is simply supply and demand. I have bought quite of few steam engines this past year and all except 2 were used. The 2 I bought new were blowouts from Charlie Ro. I am now retired and have to watch my funds and this is why I buy mostly used. This past year has been great for some terrific buys on steam.

50% off list/book is pretty much the going retail trade in the secondary market for just about everything in the toy train market ... and that is for the good stuff (E/E+). I would guess that overproduction would be just the beginning of the reason why.

I never worry about any resale value in my trains. I buy them to enjoy them, to use them, and to run them, without any thought of ever selling them. If I stop running something, it will go back into its box until such time as I may wish to use it again. Or, as is more often the case, I give it to somebody else who will enjoy it and run it. 

neither do I Nicole. Thinking about the resale value, I only did that when I felt a bit guilty, spending money on toys. Kind of buffing the polish of my bad conscience.

But once that particular train is starring on my table, I know I'll never sell it.

regards, Kieffer

You can't have too many box cars

I'm like Nicole, if I like something then I'm going to buy it. I know that 95% of what I have has never been run, but I'm hoping in the near future to have a area to run some. I think some of the prices is a combination of economy and supply and demand. There is only so much anyone can buy. Just look at Lionel's 2012 Vol.1 catalog which to me contained many more new engines as to what has been in their past catalogs. And it seemed to be a lot of remakes of things from the past. And now with them bringing out new Legacy engines with the same old features as in the past is a let down to me. I guess some of us got spoiled with the vision line features that were appearing on some of the Legacy engines.

I know that I would have loved to have been able to purchase some of the new engines that were released last year. And I did pick up a Mallet from Charles Ro when they started having their big sales near the end of the year. And I did luck out last year since Lionel did not make many diesels in the roads that I kind of stick to.

No easy answer Nick.  Lately I have been finding myself cutting way back on purchasing used engines. There are definetly many "older" engines I would love to have. 

When it comes to running my layout I find myself using the Legacy engines almost exclusively. Sure I have a few favorite TMCC engines I run but the Legacy ones are tops. When the mood hits I park the command engines and run conventional for an hour or so.

My point is if I buy Legacy I really get use out of it, TMCC I run a bit and seldom conventional. That makes me limit my purchases to Legacy and mostly the models made after 2011. It does suck because there are so many engines I love but just don't buy. Lionel's statement that they will not make Legacy available as an upgrade to older stuff makes it even worse. 

Actually they are not purchased as an investment. Run the heck out of em, enjoy em, and either give em away or sell em for whatever you can get. Originally electric trains were toys for children and meant to be enjoyed as such.

I can think of a possible combination of two reasons:

very limited parts availability, combined with a non-transferable guarantee.

I can only speak for myself: it's a combination of good supply but mostly growing obsolescence of the older locos. 

Six or seven years ago I was buying mostly used Lionel locos in the $1000-$2200 range (NIB JLC Big Boys, etc.).  I still like these locos but they stay on the shelves more and more.

I've watched as Vision and, recently, particularly Legacy locos, have shot ahead in terms of sound quality (awesome compared to 5 - 10 years ago) and cruise (Odyssey II is a lot better than Odessey in my experience - no surge, better lock in, seems often to know what you want to do).  In addition, recent Lionel locos are clearly superior in their ability to run slow, smoothly, in conventional, compared to some of my older TMCC locos.

So I have shifted to buying new.  I've noticed that some Lionel locos seem to have been run off in lquantities large enough to surpress the market.  The Legacy ATSF Northern is selling only about a year after release at a noticeable discount everywhere.)  (There are exceptions - I understand the V Challenger is hard to get). 

I'll chime in on the scale steam locomotive market because that's an area where I am a very active buyer.Please note that the prices I am talking about are the actual selling prices I observe and participate in at live auctions(Stout,Maurer),The "bay" and large train meets as well as the buy/sell on this forum.

I think its obvious that Legacy has had a big impact on the secondary market.I have seen the selling prices for the TMCC versions drop down to 50-60% off the original prices.The JLC locomotives are soft,selling for about 30-40% lower for C8-C9 examples.The SP AC-12's still command a good price as well as the JLC N&W Y6b. Dealer end of year blowouts have had an impact too.Especially the Legacy Mallets and Mikados.Most of the Vision locomotives are holding up well.They command about 85-110% of the original price if new.You see some very high asking prices but no one is paying those kind of prices.The ES44's are hot.I see the PRR 0-8-8-0 starting to go down however.The centipedes are being discounted.

MTH PS-2 Premier steam is hit and miss. Many MTH locos that have been produced by Lionel with Legacy have really affected the selling prices for the MTH PS1 or PS2 version.However,many of the harder to find MTH premier locomotives are still commanding near to or higher than original prices.As we know,most PS-1 Premier steam sells for less than half of original price.Examples that have been run in C5 and C6 sell for even less.New releases in PS3 have been few so far but I expect the selling prices for the PS2 versions to drop.As expected,the selling prices of the PS2 ATSF Blue Goose have fallen with the PS3 release.

I find myself at the point where unless the engine is exactly what I want, in the size I want (LionMaster!), with the features I want, then I can wait.

It HAS to be able to negotiate O-31 curves and switches and look good hauling traditionally-sized cars..

It HAS to have Cruise.

It HAS to have RailSounds.

It HAS to be of the steam-diesel transition era, or reasonably close.

This limits my purchasing to new bronze hardware for my boat...

Jon

sir-boomer hit the nail on the head-from 2000 to 2011 the big two pounded out trains like crazy-170 page catalogs-they produced enough big boys/chalengers/etc. so that most o operators and collectors could have one.everything was over produced to satisfy our wants and needs-i would say 75 per cent of us have everything we always wanted-sound systems and control systems are great but every time a compan upgrads their sounds and systems the stuff we bought is almost obsolete-new lionel sounds and systems are great if they work-they are also expensive-i am priced out of buying new lionel-mth fills my needs but they are going up in price .scale proto 1 and 2 steamers are still getting a decent price-thanks to bcr batterys which mth should have produced .thank god for the market creating a company that made these for us.

i have no idea what your finianial situation is buying new trains-this is not a cheap hobby.it is a enjoyable hobby-great people in this hobby.

Personally, I think the "2 chuffs" was the kiss of death on much of the older Lionel stuff. While not a concern for everyone, as the strive for realism increases, this is a glaring error.

There are many models I would buy in a heartbeat if the chuffs were correct, and while it is possible to upgrade with a reed switch this still requires some time and effort. Who knows what the long term reliability is. It is usually not as accurate as a  cam operated chuff either.

2 chuffs was a poor, poor engineering and management choice. Yet we have bad Odessey control and simply idiotic crew talk...

And let's not forget only one number for Lionel freight cars. ??? When Atlas, MTH and Weaver can all stock multilple numbers with ease how can Lionel be stumped?

I agree.

There have been many good deals posted on right here on the forum for JLC Challengers, TMCC Berks, etc. but I hold off because I want the four chuffs without doing any modifications.

The only TMCC steamer that I would spring for would be the L2 Mohawk with 5.0. That baby has the four chuffs and looks great. I can live without Legacy on this one.

It really isn't that difficult to get four chuffs/rev for many of these.  I wouldn't let that keep me from buying an otherwise very attractive deal on a locomotive I was seeking.

>>>It really isn't that difficult to get four chuffs/rev for many of these.<<

Is Weaver still doing factory EOB upgrades?

Joe 

I agree with Lee Willis. Now that operators are comfortable with TMCC, Legacy and DCS, older locomotives that cannot be upgraded easily are less and less popular.

As aging collectors of postwar and prewar trains pass away, their families encounter a shrinking market for their collections. People who pay top dollar for a mint 700E, an Ives Circus, or a 2341 Jersey Central Train Master are fewer and farther between. Demand lessens as more trains come on the market in succeeding auctions. Even if upgrading them would be feasible, it would destroy their value.

Until the early 1990's, collectors could buy trains and sell them at high prices to get the best pieces. But those days are gone, due to TMCC, Legacy, DCS, and the vast variety of trains available today.

>>>We all thought Northerns blowing out at $799 would be the deal of the year.  And then look what happens... Charlie Ro blows out even larger locomtoves, the EM-1 Yellowstones/Giants at $699! <<

If they offered that engine at $399, I still wouldn't buy it...

You get to a point when reality sets in..

I've come to the realization that a deal is only a deal if you can use the deal.

The engine didn't sell well last time for the same reason its sitting this time. its an ugly dog.

After years in the hobby, you learn there's better use for the many $$$$$ required. 

Joe

Great points so far everyone.

Just to clear one thing up though, this thread is not me lamenting not being able to buy trains as investments. I only started really thinking about this buyer's market after seeing that JLC Challenger on the FS board and getting some great deals myself there recently.

As for those "Giants" on blowout, I am completely unsurprised. I too thought they were dogs, and had a feeling they would go straight to the clearance bin. The people that did like them must be very happy  

>>As for those "Giants" on blowout, I am completely unsurprised. I too thought they were dogs,<<

We think alike...

After years of this.. with Lionel, after countless $$$ mistakes you learn the herd mentality lives large in these parts. 

It takes skill and willpower to avoid the pitfalls.

Joe 

You want it? Buy it! But be able to pay for it!!

Gunny

I think the secondary market is case by case.  Some items go to blowout and others are coveted.

You guys spend more on one locomotive than I paid for my first car! (1960 Corvair)

Bill, I expect that 1960 Corvair, if living, is now worth more than all my Locomotives combined!

I never bought a piece of model railroad equipment with the expectation that I would one day sell it. I bought it to play with! I have many of the "bad" engines, [high dollar Articulateds, lo-tech Proto 1.0s, T/A and other upgrades] being discussed that I consider negatively amortized by time and wear, not by technical or $ obsolescence as it being generally defined here.

My locomotive roadnames are 80% Southern Ry and the rest N&W/Clinchfield and of course the hated EM 1, all of which face a narrow or shallow regional resale market[the later Ps-4 Crescent Ltds and Js perhaps excepted]. 

My four grand daughters make me cakes shaped as trains, paint me pictures of trains and run them wide open when here, but that is the extent of their interest. My two sons have many other interests and still have all of my HO from the early 1980s stored in their closets.

Dang, now realizing my rail empire assets are so severely depressed I may write the beneficiary of my Will as the City Dump.

I have purchased engines I liked without any consideration of resale value.  It is immaterial to me.  I just enjoy watching them run around. If my estate gets 20 cents on the dollar it will be good enough.

Well I just contradicted myself big time.  I went to my LHS, Gryzbowski Trains, in Moosic PA. To buy a Legacy engine, a command inspection car, a MTH Seahouse car and a Lionel TV car.  Someone just traded in a Pennsylvania TMCC boom car only but it was too expensive with the other purchases. 

I walk in and on display is a TMCC Lionel Lackawwana FM Trainmaster with the maroon roof. Gorgeous. I couldn't help myself...I did not by the Legacy engine I went in for, but I did buy the Trainmaster. I guess there are even exceptions to my own rules.