TIME FOR MTH TO PRODUCE SOME REAL CLASSICS; NOT ABSURD COLOR VARIATIONS!

I hope you chaps will not mind a point of view from London England.

The 0 Gauge scene here is some decades behind the USA so far a development is concerned but it's now accellerating well.  

There are now a handful of brass importers so 0 Gauge modelling is finally turning from kits to ready to run-so-far as scale (1/43.5!) goes.   Cars (carriages) and trucks (wagons) are also becoming available ready to run.  This applies to the "finescale" end.

When it comes to tinplate, our version of Lionel was Hornby, but there were several other firms active before WW2; after WW2, apart from some small 0-4-0 clockwork Hornby trains, and miniscule production from the others, the entire hobby went for 00, prompted by the resumed production of the world-beating Hornby Dublo system - which introduced the world to 12v dc, by the way.  Introduced in 1938, it was objectively better than anything available in commercial quantities in any scale - and it took up a quarter of the space.   This was overwhelmingly important after WW2 when Goering &c had done their best to demolish as many homes as possible.  For the great majority, space was tight here.

You will all know about "Century of Model Trains" by Allen Levy, the inspiring book from c1975.   For the last 15 years we have had Allen Levy's ACE trains (there are now some others too) and the way the ACE range has developed is instructive.  

ACE started by reproducing accurate versions of scarce Hornby locos, though with electric drive, but have morphed into doing their own, improved, versions of what the old makers might have developed should 0 Gauge have prospered here after the War.   This has resulted, not surprisingly, in the 0 Gauge version of Hornby-Dublo trains in some cases - popular prototypes then are still popular now!

With exceptions, there is no great shortage of the old stuff since the number of people following tinplate seems to be falling, with many Estate-sales occuring each year.  The new production, therefore, adds to the scope of what one may incorporate into one's collection.

It also has the effect of democratising the hobby, since one can now get for about $1,000 a better version of a pre-war Bassett-Lowwke streamliner which otherwise would cost $15,000 - $30,000.   Yes, of course, it is thrilling to own one of the originals, but often only a few dozen were made (their recurrence in the catalogues is highly misleading - they were there to pad-out the range, giving the illusion of large production).

So, the slavish copying of the old stuff is being avoided in modern times, and the variety of trains available to all is rising.   There is nothing to dislike about that.

Claughton,

Thanks for your post.

I had always thought that continuing the innovation that Lionel stared with the Hiawatha and CV would be the best of all worlds since it could be added to the "accurate" reproductions that Dr. Folb is referring to and the "crazy" colors that others like.

The painting in a variety of colors is the easiest and least difficult to do.  They dont even have to buy/make new paint masks.  I would like to see more classic color palette however, rather than the chalky pastel look.  Lou Caponi's CV set as an example. 1930's automobile colors too... even advertising art of the era is good.

Making accurate reproductions takes a bit more skill, and maybe the addition of a tool or two... I would personally like to see a wider range of Lionel Locos made, plus more AF Wide.  I there was a way to get chromo-litho back in the line, that would be incredible.

Designing from new is a huge investment is a big investment, but with enough pre work i believe it would pay off... with the right selection of items to be manufactured.  Like a repop of Harlan Creswells 600E, or Bob Thons Challenger.  How about a Reading Crusader, with the 5 car set?  Or how about a Frisco Firefly with Blue heavy weights?

Or perhaps a Dreyfuss?  

Not as scale model representations but keeping them within the toy train arena?  Absolutely.  I would think that If Lou Caponi could manage several projects with small runs and large amounts of detail. there has to be someone that could do it for LCT, and make high mix, low volume products, increasing collector opportunity, and diving more business to the LCT side of the business.

Just my $.02.

If one looks thoughout the history of MTH (even before the Lionel agreement) offering prewar tinplate reproductions, one would see that items in their correct and proper colors have been offered many times over the years, along with the "non-standard" colors more recently. 

By offering reproduction prewar tinplate in other than original colors, MTH has very likely increased the interest in tinplate, rather than having this segment of the hobby stagnate and die out all together.

Rusty

Bob and Rusty

Let me admit that I have recently bought a pink ACE "schools", St Trinneans, because I love the old British cinema, including the films about those naughty girls (some of my schools were similar, though not quite so corrupt, so I recognise the characters).   So, I can be silly too.

But, the preponderence of modern Tinplate production here is one model offered with, say, four authentic liveries and bespoke names and numbers.   This allows the cost of new tooling to be spread out among many sales over a short period, and thus makes the business viable.

We are helped, in the UK, by the great variety of colourful liveries that existed up to "The Grouping" in 1923 (see, for example www.elegantsteam.com) which removes any desire to create fictitious colours.  In the American case, almost everything was black from about 1890 until the  1930s and the streamline era encourage some reversion to colourful style.   We do not have this problem!   The unfortunate truth, though, is that after WW1 and expecially after WW2, though colourful liveries were created, ever decreasing cleanliness made it all rather futile.   But, the old photos show that before WW1 dirty locomotives just did not exist.

So, what is MTH to do presently with the weak state of demand - re-issuing old stuff in new colours, and probably in small volume too, keeps the business ticking over until better times return.  

I suppose the fact that the Internet has made it so easy to get a secondhand whatever, also goes to reduce demand for further runs of the same thing?

Sometimes the variety is huge - I understand the new ACE LMS Duchess is to come in 22 variations as well as bespoke names and numbers.    When it is all over, it is unlikely there will be more than half a dozen of anything, except for the most famous locomotives.

DR Martin A Folb- the use of "Doctor" in your title is, as Allan Miller correctly notes, appropriate within academia but only serves to portray you as the pedantic know-it-all that you have managed to present. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your apparently superior intellectual capacity, but you have successfully alienated most of what would otherwise have been a fairly sympathetic audience here.

Perhaps the "absurd" colors and mere pastiche of the so-called inferior LCT/MTH tinplate productions will inspire younger enthusiasts to pursue a more intellectual path that will eventually lead them to the same appreciation of the originals that you so clearly possess.

Or would you deride the 12 year old aspiring artist whose first love is not Paul Klee,  Bernini, Turner or Canaletto but rather the comparatively unsophisticated scribblings of Grandma Moses, Norman Rockwell or Andrew Wyeth? I pray for the sake of academia that you are not entrusted to actually teach young minds.

Gee, ya think Mr. Folb maybe shares my appreciation for the work of the late Thomas Kinkade (as per my column in our April/May issue)?   

I don't think so MR. Miller; I prefer Frederick Church, Albert Bierstadt and John Singer Sargent . Thank you, DR. Martin A. Folb

Marty- may I call you Marty? - I received my Bachelor of Science degree from Miami University, Oxford, Ohio in 1976 in International Studies. I received my Master of Arts degree in International Affairs from the Woodrow Wilson School of Princeton University in 1981 and and my Juris Doctor (that's a law degree to you) from Columbia University in the City of New York in 1984.

But I still don't call myself a "doctor".

I confess, however, that I am still missing the connection between academic credentials and artistic taste.

To my fellow forumites, if Marty here is the real Martin A. Folb, he sounds like the life of the party. I am sure he is on everyone's A list and the first person anyone who is anyone thinks of the liven up a social gathering. I found an article on line that mentions him"

"Now we seem to have the definitive answer to fluorescence through use of more sophisticated equipment by Dr. Martin Folb, a research physicist who heads his own multi-divisional company (Martin A. Folb Industries). The technology division (Duotronic Systems) develops laser and other electro-optical systems, as well as photo-optical instrumentation. A fluorescence test was developed to analyze clear, American Brilliant Period Glass.

Four colors of fluorescence have been observed with Early American cut glass: yellow-green (usually found in the oldest pieces of Brilliant, indicating the presence of manganese and possibly some traces of uranium salts); a blue-green (primarily manganese); a steel blue-grey (also manganese), sometimes referred to as blue-ice; finally pink (or pinkish-blue, indicative of sodium used in reproduction items).

Dr. Folb states that there is no such thing as purple fluorescence. This is the reflection of residual blue and red visible light which is not being filtered out by the inexpensive filters built into the Blacklight-Blue lamp.

He uses a long wave UV source that has filters which eliminate nearly all of the visible purple light. This light source is a Seiss Ultraviolet Illuminator used with a fluorescent microscope. It uses an HBO 200 watt High Pressure Mercury Arc, producing ten times the amount of UV present with the BLB lamp. Subtle differences masked by the BLB lamp can be clearly seen. Some reproductions show no fluorescence. If the piece just barely fluoresces a pink color, it is surely not old. The old glass contains ten times the amount of manganese present in trace amounts in modern glass."

Marty- maybe ya need to get out a little more. Methinks you have been fried by too many ultraviolet death rays in your secret underground laboratory.  

Hey Allan,

I've GOT IT! A brilliant idea: some years back Bachmann released an On3 series of passenger trains with Thomas Kinkeade artwork. We should ask the good folks at LCT/MTH to take a reproduction 400E and state Set and put Thomas Kinkeade graphics on it. It would be GORGEOUS!!!

How about a 381 in paisley or maybe a tartan? Or a Blue Comet 400E with NASCAR graphics?

YEE HAW! Now that would sure be purdy!!!

http://www.tcamembers.org/memb...nly/tcq/tcq14-1a.pdf

Hi Mr/Dr.  Folb,

Just curious; do Don Fiore, Michael Seibert, Jerry Wagner, Ed and Doug Prendeville, Bryan Fisk, Leon Jacobson, and Jerry Hamen all have PhD degrees? And if they do, are they in theoretical physics? You quite graciously gave them recognition in your "Pursuit of Excellence" article for the TCA Quarterly so you can understand why I concluded they, too, must be, at the very least, PhDs. Otherwise, you would not dare compromise your reputation by relying upon the wisdom and knowledge of those with such suspect bona fides.

Nevertheless, I have no reservations in extending my sincere compliments to you for what was and remains a most excellent article. 

Lest this banter becomes more serious than anyone ever intended, I do thank you for your contributions to the scholarship of our shared tinplate heritage and for the erudition with which you have approached your subject matter.

Sincere regards.

Thank you for point to that old TCA journal - there was a little in there about Bassett-Lowke that I didn't know (the black LMS post-war 4-6-2 LMS Duchess).

I'l give you my pennyworth about colours!   It seems to me that Art Deco colours were highly saturated - viz. UP Armour Yellow - whereas post War pastal shades predominated; it was as if people had had enough shocks to be going on with and now wanted more peaceful or restful shades.

Obviosly this is a sweeping gereralisation, with many exceptions.

But, surely MTH, in partuicular, has taken the old toys and produced modern developed versions, in much the same way as is now hapenning in Britain.   The difference is that here it is a new development, with hundreds of eager impatient customers whereas in America owing to the longer history there is a lively secondhand market.  As I mentiooned earlier, this is the more so owing to the internet.  In other words, the US market is fairly saturated now.

You are very welcome.

I posted the link simply as I found pages 6-10 to be of particular interest.

What are your feelings about those with advanced degrees who look down on those who do not have them?

Have you yourself been able to discern the difference between wisdom and knowledge?  The universities of the world are inhabited by far too many that are unable to make this important distinction.

Well.  Doing the math this does not add up.  If this is correct, he was born in 1953 and joined the TCA at seven years of age in 1960.  The TCA article was authored by Dr. Martin Folb in 1968.  Apparently Mr. Folb had already earned his Ph.D. by the age of 15.

How to address a Ph.D.  http://www.formsofaddress.info/Doctorate.html

Jeff Davis

gaud·y  

Extravagantly bright or showy, typically so as to be tasteless.

Exactly when did this stop being the Tinplate Forum and become Antiques Roadshow?

Rusty

Dr. Folb,  would you email me (in profile) to carry on this conversation offline?

Thanks.

At the 1893 Chicago World Fair, and I suppose at the 1904 St Louis World fair, but certainly at the 1939-40 New York Wold's Fair, they had some nice trains too.

Thank you.  You just validated my point.

Rusty

Good point Ron, and the 1933 Chicago World's Fair featured some extraordinary Flyer trains including the MAYFLOWER!

I didn't see your note that you were there-fascinating! Do you remember seeing the Mayflower set?

Just click on any name of a "poster"on the left...then if you scroll down, it is on the right hand side if it is listed, mine is.

To the 1893 Chigago ehibition, the London & North Western Railway sent the Webb compound 2-2-2-2, a two modern saloon cars and the 1843 Royal Saloon built for Queen Adelaide (William IV's consort).  Two similar saloons still exist as dwellings on the south coast of England and Queen Adelaide's Saloon is now in the National Railway Museum, York.

For St Louis in 1904, four quarter scale carriage models were made.  Goering destroyed two but the other pair are in the National Railway Museum.  The flatware, china, glass and upholstery are all true quarter scale - they must be the finest models in the world.  King Edward VII's saloon stands adjacent to itself in quarter scale so you can check this sweeping statement for yourself.

In 1911, the PRR overtook the LNWR as the largest company in the world.

In 1933, the LMSR (sucessor Co to the LNWR) sent the Royal Scot 4-6-0 and train - No 6100 to Chicago.  The engine still exists, in rebuilt form and is now in working order.

In 1939-40, the LMS sent "The Coronation Scot" streamliner to the World Fair.   The locomotive, Duchess of Hamilton, still exists, having be re-streamlined a couple of years ago.   I was temporarilly renamed Coronation for the World Fair. Presently it is in the NRM.

So, exhibition pieces tend to be important and looked after.  For further futile, esoteric information..........

Sorry - I forgot to add that in New York in 1939/40, the showpiece was the PRR S1 6-4-4-6  - a simple but giant rendition of Webb's compound 2-2-2-2 - and they suffered similar problems with differential slipping too.   Like the Royal Scot of 1933, it too was No 6100. 

I do have one thing to state about Dr. Folb and his fluorescence properties of glass.

I do understand what he's getting at, and in a similar but different fashion, black light checking is done on a lot of different things because it shows discontinuity in different finishes, etc. It's used to discern if vintage guitars have been refinished or repaired, as well as, you guessed it, prewar train originality.

I am nearly 100% sure that a black light test was most likely performed on the the Dr.'s Century Limited set prior to it being put up for auction.

The stuff does work and does have merit.

Yes indeed...Black light is my friend.