tinplate caboose questions

since you're looking at Flyer,

I don't have either of these, so I can't say how they will match up with the 2816.

I think the flyer cabooses shown above will be rather small.  Additionally then I still have to deal with coupler compatibility.  The 2816 hopper have high mounted box couplers.

Here is a comparison of the Flyer 3211 caboose and the Lionel 2817

I'm not sure why the photo is cut off.

The size of the Flyer side dump car is 91/2 inches as is the Flyer caboose.  This is a visual comparison of the Lionel hopper and the side dumping car.

The hopper is packed away at the moment so I can't post a photo of the Flyer caboose and the Lionel hopper side by side until I find the hopper.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Wow - thanks Greg.  Looks like that AF 3211 is pretty much what I was looking for in terms of size/style. Also looks like the flyer coupler mounting rivet could be drilled out to install a box coupler.  I supposed after that adding a light would be up to me

3211 cabeese are illuminated.  3201s are not.  These cabeese are narrower but taller than the 817/2817.  You might look at the 1722/2722 caboose Lionel made late in prewar years.

JHZ563,

   The original 817 Red Caboose has always looked great to me.  

PCRR/Dave

Original Lionel Red with Black base 817 Caboose next to the 2800 series Brown & Red with black base MTH Repro Caboose, ride the end of this work train consist.

Really like the Lionel original colors on this early 817 Caboose also.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

JHZ563,

   The original 817 Red Caboose has always looked great to me.  

PCRR/Dave

Purr/Dave,

 I appreciate your input.  While the overall size looks right, the cupola size compared to the rest of the car body and the tiny window slits just look wrong to me, even for what is an outright toy.

Conversly if you look at the plastic caboose in the foreground of your picture the cupola windows and side windows are a similar size. Additionally there are no windows under the cupola, which is how it would be. I can accept suspension of belief to play with toy trains, but the 817 caboose just looks wrong to me.

JHZ563,

   The Tin 817 was made in early 1900's, the K-line Coca Cola Caboose was made in 1959.

I will take the Tin Plate over the plastic 100% of the time.  If you like the more realistic 3211 Flyer, you can always purchase one, change the Trucks & Couplers on her, and run the 3211 Flyer Caboose with your Lionel consist.  It will look pretty neat.  I always liked them myself and have often wanted to do it.  If I finally find one in absolutely perfect condition, it will probably happen.

I have a custom made Flyer Mini Crane in Front of my Lionel Consist most of the time.  Of course my layouts are designed to be a child like fantasy Train world.  Right down to the Bear Christmas Tree.  We do realism very sparingly in our Christmas Train Room, the 817 Lionel originals fit right in.

PCRR/Dave

I like my 817 too...  I don't actually have an 817.  I do like my 657, but even on that the cupola is somewhat squat compared to the rest of the body. It looks great with the smaller cars but just doesn't match up with the 2816 hoppers.

I just want something that has more consistent proportions for the train I'm building.  I am going to have to actually get to a few shows and keep an eye out for a nice AF example.

JHZ, to be picky  there is no 817 in that pic. its a 657/2657, a smaller piece.  

I always thought that the cupola looked squashed as well .....The 817 is surely copied/modeled for a northeastern railroad prototype.

Rob English posted:

JHZ, to be picky  there is no 817 in that pic. its a 657/2657, a smaller piece.  

I always thought that the cupola looked squashed as well .....The 817 is surely copied/modeled for a northeastern railroad prototype.

You are absolutely correct - my complete goof.  I have been looking at so many tinplate caboose pictures lately I got messed up.

JHZ,

  I see a freight set on eBay right now that has a 263e loco and the 2817 caboose, so it seems that they would be "correct" together.

  The choice is yours though and let us know what you decide. Many of the original prewar cabeese had some squat cupolas...

  If not following "any rules" I like the looks of these...

Tom  

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Here is a comparison of the Flyer 3211 caboose and the Lionel 2817

This is surprising. The AF caboose buried somewhere in my pile seems like it would be much larger than this. Did they make the same style caboose in two sizes? They made a lot of other freight cars in two sizes.

RoyBoy,

In the O gauge American Flyer line there are a number of different cabooses; however the one paired with the Lionel caboose above is the largest at 9 1/2 inches. The others come in around 6 inches.

Of course Flyer also made a caboose for the Wide Gauge line that is very similar to the 9 1/2 inch version.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Greg,

I have this American Flyer (3017?) caboose; it does not have any ladders or railing. Was  there a version made that way or are these just missing?

Regards

Fred

Fred,

Your caboose is actually a #232.  Gilbert gave new numbers to the old Chicago Flyer designed cars.  The sheet metal knuckle couplers indicate that it is from 1939.  Your caboose is missing its brass ladder and railings. 

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Fred,

Your caboose is actually a #232.  Gilbert gave new numbers to the old Chicago Flyer designed cars.  The sheet metal knuckle couplers indicate that it is from 1939.  Your caboose is missing its brass ladder and railings. 

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

I think the curly que couplers are 1938. 1939 was the first year of the link couplers.

Good comparison Greg.  I think that in addition to the size difference, the reds may clash depending on the variation chosen (both the hopper (4 distinct red shades) and the caboose ( the 3211 has at least 2 shades).  Most of the time we wouldn't notice but when you put them together.....

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Fred,

Your caboose is actually a #232.  Gilbert gave new numbers to the old Chicago Flyer designed cars.  The sheet metal knuckle couplers indicate that it is from 1939.  Your caboose is missing its brass ladder and railings. 

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Greg,

Thank you,

Fred

There's a Greenburg show in york this weekend.  Hoping to pick up a flyer 3211 there.

RoyBoy posted:

Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Fred,

Your caboose is actually a #232.  Gilbert gave new numbers to the old Chicago Flyer designed cars.  The sheet metal knuckle couplers indicate that it is from 1939.  Your caboose is missing its brass ladder and railings. 

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

I think the curly que couplers are 1938. 1939 was the first year of the link couplers.

According to Schuweiler the 9 1/2 inch cars came with the sheet metal couplers in 1938 and the 6 1/2 inch cars had them in 1939.  The link and pin couplers were introduced in 1939 as well.  Of course the Greenberg guide has been known to have errors.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Well I took the whole family to the Greenberg show.  Let’s just call that a challenge - and say my wife is a real trooper 😀

I couldn’t find a flyer 3211 but I did find a nice 817 at a good price.  Now when my loco comes in I will have a nice train to show off.

change your mind on the copula? That's a nice find!

Steamer posted:

change your mind on the copula? That's a nice find!

No, I still think it looks like somebody sat on it.  But who knows how long it will be until I dig up a flyer 3211 with a decent body.  This will do nicely in the interim.

 Gentlemen,

   You can never have to many Tin Plate Trains, L.C. Smith Double guns or F.E. Thomas Bamboo Fly Fishing Rods.  

You got Full Light Green 817 under lock and key don't you!

PCRR/Dave

Just picked up another solid Red 817 with dual Auto Couplers this morning, to add to the 817 mini collection you see in the picture below.  Can't find the original Lionel full Light Green 817, with a set of box couplers on it for sale any where.

jhz563 posted:

Steamer posted:

change your mind on the copula? That's a nice find!

No, I still think it looks like somebody sat on it.  But who knows how long it will be until I dig up a flyer 3211 with a decent body.  This will do nicely in the interim.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ameri...8:g:IK8AAOSwQN5ac0WT

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMERI...f:g:gSQAAOSwX0NZwP8u

 

Just picked up another solid Red 817 with dual Auto Couplers this morning, to add to the 817 mini collection you see in the picture below.  Can't find the original Lionel full Light Green 817, with a set of box couplers on it for sale any where.

 

It was only produced by Lionel with Latch couplers.  BTW its Dark Green over Peacock Blue.

Okay, I still think the cupola looks foolish, but I saw something on the ‘bay I couldn’t resist.

I hope I am not developing another “problem”!!

you have.....

some more for comparison...

Flyer, Dorfan & Ives... remarkably, all couple together!

Flyer #3217 & #411 (late version of the 3211)

Flyer #411 and Lionel #817 next to a #2816 hopper.

cheers...gary

Fantastic comparison Gary - Thanks a bunch!

overlandflyer posted:

some more for comparison...

Flyer, Dorfan & Ives... remarkably, all couple together!

Flyer #3217 & #411 (late version of the 3211)

Flyer #411 and Lionel #817 next to a #2816 hopper.

cheers...gary

Gary,

The 6 1/2" Flyer Caboose with the green cupola is a #3017. I am  not aware of a piece of Flyer equipment with the # 3217.

The 9 1/2" Flyer Caboose with the sheet metal knuckle coupler is still considered a #3211.  #411 has the link and pin coupler.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

thank's Greg... my faux pas on the 3017 (it's only stamped in BIG numbers under the frame!!).

on the big caboose, i thought it might be a #411 due to the type XV frame and type XII trucks, but now i see it is a 3211(N), the last one listed before the #411... i'll note (as Schuweiler did not) that the #411 has the type XI couplers.  thanks, again.

by the way, here is another picture of the type XV frame juxtaposed to the 2816 hopper...

from this shot and the book photos, i noticed that the type XV frame sits a bit lower than the type XIV frame... or maybe it's the type XII vs the type VIII trucks, but seeing either one will likely sit lower than the Lionel hopper, you might want to consider which coupler to replace.  i think you'd have better luck putting a tab/ slot coupler on one end of a 2816.

Well, I was the winning bid on evil bay tonight for a 3211 and a couple flyer o gauge gondolas, so I guess I will have my experimental victim soon enough.

 I hate to chop up a pristine mth or Lionel 2816, maybe if it was a repaint.  I will study how to matchup the couplers when it arrives.

Well my not so little red little red caboose has arrived!!

Not bad for $15 bucks eh? (Especially with two flyer gondolas thrown, even if they a little beat up.)

And look- it has cupola windows an imaginary tinplate man could actually look out of!!

So it looks I have some learning to do on how to clean up this critter.  Any constructive advice will be appreciated.

As for comparison to the 817, surprisingly the overall height is about the same but the main roof line is lower, allowing for the more proportional cupola.

Body width is a little thinner than the Lionel/mth cars, but how often do you look straight down on them anyway?

As to changing the couplers, I am having second thoughts now that I see the construction.  The river that holds the coupler shank on also holds trim pieces on as well.  

As another question to the tinplate crowd, since there is already an adapter for latch or box couplers to lobster claw, is there also a premade adapter from latch coupler to slot style coupler?  If not, the easiest fix might be to solder an extension onto an existing adapter and bend it down to catch the slot on the flyer end.  

Anyway, I need to clean up the new caboose, I might even consider a paint project to make it shinier.  Let me know what you guys think.

JHZ563

JHZ563,

   You will have to re-engineer the couplers, no transition hook adapter coupler available, Happy Engineering!   I have been tempted more than once to retro-fit some Lionel Box Couplers to the beautiful 3211 AF Caboose.

PCRR/Dave

Maybe use 1 of the gondolas and mount 2 different couplers on that.  Then you can clean-up 2 cars.

Clean with damp, mildly soaped with Ivory then wire with damper rag.  Dry in front of fan. Polish with your favorite polish, but, make sure you test on the red bottom for compatibility. You can put a screw through the rivet hole or buy a new latch coupler and bend and trim to fit the slot and voila!

Bob English,

   I should probably retro-fit one some time for sure, hay ya got to forgive me on the exact colors, I am partially color blind.  Never the less it is a way cool Green on Green Caboose.  I will be purchasing one and switch it on to another 817 Frame with Auto-Couplers for sure.  Will take some pictures when I get her done.

PCRR/Dave