tinplate caboose questions

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Bob English,

   I should probably retro-fit one some time for sure, hay ya got to forgive me on the exact colors, I am partially color blind.  Never the less it is a way cool Green on Green Caboose.  I will be purchasing one and switch it on to another 817 Frame with Auto-Couplers for sure.  Will take some pictures when I get her done.

PCRR/Dave

Dave, my point was to clarify the terminology.  Its less confusing if tin-platers use the correct, commonly used words. For instance auto couplers refers to electrically operated couplings, whereas we normally refer to manual coupling as just that... Manual Box Couplers, or latch couplers.

There are multiple shades of many colors including reds, greens, yellows, and blues... if we describe them by their commonly used collector descriptions, we have a common platform by which we can discuss these things accurately... which help everybody to some degree.

BTW, My name is Rob.  Not Bob... save that for Bob Newhart.

Rob,

   Sorry about misreading your name all this time.  It will never happen again.

Identification Terminology for discussing the different kinds of Tin Plate should not be from any kind collectors club.  Lionel, AF and other manufacturers have already identified every item they made and sold, and in reality we all should be using the manufacturer's identification Terminology.   However using slang terms while discussing Tin Plate is common place, and usually easily understood.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks Dave, I appreciate it.

Its interesting that you think it should not come from any club... that it should come from the manufacturers.  I agree.  But, very few people know the manufacturers terminology, and even fewer use it. Even the most common of terms like "e-unit" are collectors slang, or are misapplied terms. The paint colors are a good example of this.... people say "maroon" , when the correct Lionel color is "Wine" and the correct American Flyer color is "Sunset Red".  This kind of misnomer (call it slang if you want) is commonplace in the train community. Folks say "pendulum reverse unit" when there isn't a pendulum in sight!

There are very few terms that are TCA or other club derived... most of it is individual collector derived. My point (clarified further here) is that if we use common terminology we can be more descriptive and accurate in our descriptions, even more so if we used the manufacturers terms. AND, more people will understand what we are trying to say to them.

Rob,

   You make good points and I was just busting you about Collectors Clubs determining Tin Plate Terminology,  I am sure you guys did a great job when you worked on the Tin Plate Book.   As for the original Green on Green 817 Lionel Caboose, thanks for advising me that none of them had ever been produced, with Auto-Couplers.  However now MTH has produced one, in 2817, looks real nice too.  Further I did pick up a pristine Green on Green Lionel 817 Original with the Latch Couplers.  Nice ones are hard to find at a reasonable price, I was lucky to acquire one from a private owner. 

The original Lionel 817 Green on Green will give me 5 different 817/2817 Cabeese, 6 if I can pick up the New Lionel 817 MartyE Pictured in his post, and #7 will be the new Green on Green (slightly different Colored) MTH 2817, if I can find one.   Pretty soon I will have an entire 817/2817 Consist to pull behind my one of a kind, Gun Metal Gray 249ERR.  Shooting for at least 10 different 817/2817 Cabeese to make a nice Consist.

I will continue to look for these a little at a time.

Thanks again for the advise on the Green on Green 817 Lionel original, had no idea that Lionel never produced one with Auto Couplers.

Tin Plate the real stuff!

PCRR/Dave

Pcrr/Dave,

take a look at this listing, it looks like something you would like😁

JHZ563,

   Thanks for bringing this listing to my attention, if they would have a Buy now portion of the listing I might consider it, both of the 817's look to be in real nice shape.  The owner will probably have some kind of reserve on this offering, can't see them going for any $24.00 type price. The Green on Green 817 does have a small blemish on the side of the Caboose however, I could definitely touch it up without any problem.  I do like the dark Green on this particular 817.   I figure these two will go for over $100.00 as the bidding rises.

I usually do not bid on anything however.

If you would please give me your 1st name, I would appreciate it.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

JHZ563,

   Thanks for bringing this listing to my attention, if they would have a Buy now portion of the listing I might consider it, both of the 817's look to be in real nice shape.  The owner will probably have some kind reserve on this offering, can't see them going for any $24.00 type price. The Green on Green 817 does have a small blemish on the side of the Caboose however, I could definitely touch it up without any problem.  I do like the dark Green on this particular 817.   I figure these two will go for over $100.00 as the bidding rises.

I usually do not bid on anything however.

If you would please give me your 1st name, I would appreciate it.

PCRR/Dave

 

No problem Dave - the name's John. 

I don't generally bid on stuff on either but that is how I got my flyer 3211.  Now if I only had time to spruce it up.  When I get back to it, in the short term I will probably just try to clean and polish it, but I would like to try my hand at repainting.  I just don't think I will ever get that piece up to a high gloss without doing so.  

As to coupling the flyer to the 2816/816 hoppers, I am really thinking that I am first going to try modifying an adapter to go between the couplers.  The overall look of the train would be more consistent if I replaced the truck and coupler assemblies, but I don't think its needed to make it work.

JHZ563,

   John I try to keep my Tin Plate in original condition however there are exceptions.  Make sure if you do any painting you get the correct color paint.  

My original Green on Green 817 Lionel Caboose was delivered today, it is even more perfect than I thought it would be, pictures can be deceiving.  I will definitely be purchasing more of this particular man's private collection, when he wants to part with his Tin Plate.  I know there are a lot of Paint Variations on these original 817's, this gentlemen advised me that he has a couple more that he might sell me as time goes along. 

My little Collection of 817's is growing.  At this point I only have one MTH 2817 all the rest are Lionel originals.  However this happens to be the 1st 817 that I purchased that has the Latch Couplers.  According to what Rob English advised me, the Green on Green Lionel Tin Plate Cabooses never came with Auto or Box Couplers., that is why I could never find one to purchase.  I was going to swap Bases and put the Auto Couplers on this one, but this 817 is absolutely Pristine, and should not be altered in any way, so she stays original like she is.  She will couple to my other 817 Cabeese with out any problem.  

Got to say I never really liked the Latch couplers, had a lot of fun with the Auto-Couplers on my Fathers Lionel 263E Work Train when I was a kid, the boys with the Latch Couplers on their Trains could never use an Uncoupler Track as I did.

When Steamer (Dave) posted the picture of his Green on Green 817 Caboose, I started looking for one again.  Glad Rob gave me the advise he did, I would still be looking for a Green on Green 817 with at least, Box Couplers.  

I will take some more pictures when I get her on the Tracks with the other Cabeese.

All the best,

PCRR/Dave

Couple more pictures on the Tracks of the 817 mini collection.

With the Lionel 249 Engine and Tender, after dark in the Picture Window

Nice find Dave! The colors on that original 817 are as bright as my mth 2817 repro.

John,

   The guy also has a real nice 2 tone Red 817 that I had never seen before, came with a very early set, had Latch couplers on it also.  

The Green on Green 817 I got from him had never been on the Tracks, until I placed her on my FasTrack.  The old paint is absolutely perfect, I was very lucky to get it.  Maybe some day he will consent to sell me the 2 Tone Red one also.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

John,

   The guy also has a real nice 2 tone Red 817 that I had never seen before, came with a very early set, had Latch couplers on it also.  

The Green on Green 817 I got from him had never been on the Tracks, until I placed her on my FasTrack.  The old paint is absolutely perfect, I was very lucky to get it.  Maybe some day he will consent to sell me the 2 Tone Red one also.

PCRR/Dave

 

Besides the box couplers, its interesting that yours has what appears to be orange painted window frames and the Mth one I have has brass.  I like that your work surface is just as cluttered as mine!

John,

   I put the new Green on Green 817 on display in the picture window of the Formal Living Room for everyone to see.  

PCRR/Dave

Behind the 249ERR she does look cool.

keep in mind that tinplate will fade under long duration UV exposure.

OLF,

   Roger that, it will not be on the Picture Window ledge very long.

PCRR/Dave

i should add that for museum displays i had them buy some covers for the florescent bulbs that were supposed to block the UV.  i would imagine that the same type of material would be available for windows (or frankly, maybe even the windows themselves?) that would do a similar job.  i've experienced UV attacking all sorts of other surfaces, too... furniture, etc.

The orange window frames are correct as are the brass ones.  The orange windows and nickel journal boxes date Daves cab to 1926-1930.  Some detail photos on the truck and I could tighten that up a bit.

Rob,

   I will take some additional pictures for ya as soon as I can.  

PCRR/Dave

Tin Plate the real Stuff!

Rob,

   Here are the pictures of the Trucks/Couplers you wanted to see, to narrowing the production time period.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Rob,

   Here are the pictures of the Trucks/Couplers you wanted to see, to narrowing the production time period.

PCRR/Dave

Dave... 1927-1928, that combination of color, trim color, journal plating and truck type was made only during that time.

Rob,

   Thanks a bunch for dating my newly acquired Green on Green Lionel Caboose.  Looks like the old gentlemen knew what he was talking about when he said it was made in 1927, he has a seriously cool Red on Red Caboose with silver trim, that I would really like to have for my little collection also.

PCRR/Dave

thanks also, know I know when mine was made.

So as a first try towards mating the flyer caboose to a 2816 hopper, I got a couple adapters to play with. I straightened out one to experiment with.

In theory it works great, just drops right in

Unfortunately in practice it doesn’t work.

As soon as the cars start to move the adapter lifts upwards and comes loose.  I bought a few of these to play with.  If I work out something I like I will probably make my own out of stainless sheet stock.

 John,

   I just made a deal on an AF lighted Caboose that has a different Spike type Coupler. After it is delivered I will take some pictures of it, for you to see.   The reason I picked up this particular O Gauge AF lighted Caboose is that the AF Spike Coupler is similar to the Spike portion of the Lionel Box coupler, although it looks to be up side down.  I want to see where this leads as I try to couple these pieces of different manufacturers rolling stock together.

Further if you have not seen the nice job Chris L did adding the LED's to the tail end of his new lighted Blue Comet Caboose, it's something I do believe you will be interested in, especially if your AF Caboose is lighted.  Take a gander at the other Weekend Tin Plate 3/9/18  thread.  When you have time.

PCRR/Dave

jhz563 posted:

So as a first try towards mating the flyer caboose to a 2816 hopper, I got a couple adapters to play with. I straightened out one to experiment with.

In theory it works great, just drops right in

Unfortunately in practice it doesn’t work.

As soon as the cars start to move the adapter lifts upwards and comes loose.  I bought a few of these to play with.  If I work out something I like I will probably make my own out of stainless sheet stock.

the coupler on the caboose needs bent up, then it should be OK

Steamer,

David, Roger that, with a little bending his modification will definitely work.

Take a look at Chris's LED work on the AF lighted Caboose in the other thread, seriously cool stuff!  Going to due some thing similar when mine arrives, sometime this next week.  I intend to work on some engineering for the couplers on the AF to match the Lionel Box Couplers.  Might need a suggestion form you on the work.

PCRR/Dave 

Rob,

  I just picked up another Caboose, this one is an American Flyer pictured above on the tracks and below.  I believe it is a 3211 from the design of the Red Lighted Caboose, with it came an Aqua/ Orange Box Car. Neither have any AF Ident numbers on them, not even stamped in the Tin.  Can you give me the real AF Identification numbers on these 2 pieces of Rolling Stock and it would be nice to know when they were really built by AF.  

I figured you might be able to identify the age and number Idents for me.

I also asked PaPa Steve and others in a different post whether I can change out the old Incon light in this Red AF Caboose by simply removing the old bulb and inserting a LED like I do for some of old Lionel Rolling Stock, or will I need to rework the lines with resisters?

PCRR/Dave

American Flyer Caboose and Box Car.

Dave I just got the same caboose, and mine has 3211 stamped on the bottom.

mine is missing the light socket and hand rails

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Steamer,

David, Roger that, with a little bending his modification will definitely work.

Take a look at Chris's LED work on the AF lighted Caboose in the other thread, seriously cool stuff!  Going to due some thing similar when mine arrives, sometime this next week.  I intend to work on some engineering for the couplers on the AF to match the Lionel Box Couplers.  Might need a suggestion form you on the work.

PCRR/Dave 

FYI, tried the bending modification, didn’t work at all.  The adapter lifts off right the box coupler right away.  I might have some time to start work on the flyer caboose this weekend.

Steamer,

    The pick up on your Caboose is way different than mine, my AF Caboose has a shoe type slide pick up for the lighting.    The couplers on your Caboose maybe different than mine also.

PCRR/Dave

Mean while the Mini Caboose Collection is expanding. Ordered the Lighted Blue Comet Caboose like Chris has, they put the darn thing on back order, what a bummer!  It will be a good addition to the collection.  

As you can see Construction is still going on in the Train Room

yeah, yours has the Link couplers, and mine has the tab and slot.

On second thought, crimping the adapter to the Lionel side works just fine.  Needs a little refinement, but definitely in business for a couple bucks without changing the couplers and trucks on the 3211

John,

   It works buddy but we both definitely need to do some re-engineering if we continue running the AF Caboose behind the Lionel Tin.   Myself I have decide to look around for a nice AF Engine.  PaPa Steve posted a picture just recently of a serous old AF Steamer & Tender pulling some nice passenger cars, would really  like to pick up something like that!

Got to find out just exactly what that particular engine is!

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

 

 

Rob,

  I just picked up another Caboose, this one is an American Flyer pictured above on the tracks and below.  I believe it is a 3211 from the design of the Red Lighted Caboose, with it came an Aqua/ Orange Box Car. Neither have any AF Ident numbers on them, not even stamped in the Tin.  Can you give me the real AF Identification numbers on these 2 pieces of Rolling Stock and it would be nice to know when they were really built by AF.  

I figured you might be able to identify the age and number Idents for me.

I also asked PaPa Steve and others in a different post whether I can change out the old Incon light in this Red AF Caboose by simply removing the old bulb and inserting a LED like I do for some of old Lionel Rolling Stock, or will I need to rework the lines with resisters?

PCRR/Dave

American Flyer Caboose and Box Car.

Its the same body as a 3201 or 3211, but its from 39-40 after Flyer moved from Chicago.  Gilbert renumbered it to 411. You can do a direct replacement with 18v E10 screw base bulbs (get the 3k temperature)... try Hennings.

The short adapter looks a little better, buts still needs a little work.

Here’s a train to wrap your head around! Flyer with latch coupler pulling Lionel Mth remake, transitioned to flyer sand car and caboose!

John,

   Great job now that I can live with!  Seriously cool Train Set!  Having your child there to enjoy the trains with you makes all the difference in the world.  You sir are a very very lucky man.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

John,

   Great job now that I can live with!  Seriously cool Train Set!  Having your child there to enjoy the trains with you makes all the difference in the world.  You sir are a very very lucky man.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks Dave, the long shank adapter would have looked better if I changed where it was bent so that just the bulbous part was bent down.  I may still even make my own at some point.  I wish it would stay on the Lionel end without crimping.

Nothing a reshaped paper clip won’t fix 😱😱

Okay, 

time to take the plunge...

I started this thread because I didn’t care for the cupola on the Lionel tin cabooses, and found the AF 3211 based on input here.  So now its time to make it shiny and a little customized.  So first the easy part, taking things apart. I wish the roof just slid off like the Lionel models, but here we go.  

First just getting the body off isn’t bad.

lots of detail tabs to work on.  About a half hour later we have a giant pile of parts.

I plan on trying to polish things with some metal polish and a dremel tool, but I am open to any advice.  The portholes from the end look like different material- any thoughts?  I would definitely like to install some red led lights in these locations.

As to final color, I was planning on a fire-engine red.  Based on what was under the nameplates looks like I won’t be far off from the original.

Speaking off nameplates, I could use some advice on how to clean those up, particularly this on that appears to have been made off center. 

(Bottom left)

Now the frame will be more of a challenge.  It looks like everything is riveted together.  Before I start taking this apart, I love some advice on how to put it back together.  I don’t have a rivet press, so I would like to hear how others have approached working on this or something similar.  Here’s some photos of the chassis assembly.

All thoughts appreciated.

I was just looking at my 3211 today...thinking about all those tabs...wishing the same thing about the roof.

Steamer,

   Better be taking close notes on this restoration, you got to due your next!

John,

   I would send it to MartyF, let him sand blast, and due her up with some serious Red Paint!

Rob,

Thanks for the nice TIP on the LED's!

PCRR/Dave

Steamer want yours to be this good or better buddy!