Tired of it? Zinc pest on Lionel replacement couplers.

They keep using the little mom-n-pop casting shops in China, and they keep getting the same results.

Ouch IC - I have a number of cars that have similar trucks too!

Seems our train's age at a 1:48 scale too!

Well, you'll never have zinc rot if you never use zinc to begin with.

I had purchased the standard sprung metal trucks for a homemade track cleaner 10 plus years ago. I went to use it early last year and had to replace one of them, other is perfect.

Zinc pest it is, and GRJ has it right. If companies want to eliminate the problem, bring the manufacturing of zinc castings back to the US! We've known about the problem since the 1930s , and know how to deal with it!

Chris

LVHR

@lehighline posted:

Zinc pest it is, and GRJ has it right. If companies want to eliminate the problem, bring the manufacturing of zinc castings back to the US! We've known about the problem since the 1930s , and know how to deal with it!

Chris

LVHR

Great idea!....but be prepared to shell out 100 bucks per truck! ......how many can we put you down for?....🤔

Pat

Playing devils advocate here Pat. If manufacturing them here in North America eliminates the zinc pest issue, how many would you really need to purchase as replacements?

Curt

I think the cost of made in USA is blown way out of proportion. $100 for trucks? C'mon!

I don't think it is. My friend is really into guitars. He told me a made in China (or wherever they are made) guitar goes for $600 and the same guitar made here in the USA goes for $2K. That's almost 4 times as much. Even if the difference wasn't that much all the manufacturers would have to start building here because if just one manufacturer builds overseas no one else will be able to compete with that manufacturer price wise.

Not so sure about that. I do know its time to quit depending on foreign manufacturing

@Phil55 posted:

Not so sure about that. I do know its time to quit depending on foreign manufacturing

Until it is not profitable to build overseas it will continue. Also there are just a few casting shops in the USA and most of them will not do small runs of parts. So don't get too excited about seeing anybody moving any production back to our shores.

Dave

@Phil55 posted:

I think the cost of made in USA is blown way out of proportion. $100 for trucks? C'mon!

Prove me wrong man, ......if these companies ( not just Lionel ) are willing to have there stuff made overseas, shipped across the ocean, then shipped to their world headquarters, then to a dealer or distributor, that stands as good reason why they won’t do it in this country, ......yes, I’d love to see US production, but some of you guys live in never-never land thinking it’d be that simple and still affordable to produce things here in the US, ......look at the minimum wage “ over there” and look at it over here, ......then tell me how much those trucks will average in price!...look, ...it stinks, I hate it too, but if Lionel is willing to pay all that money to have stuff made over there, and ship it all the way over here,......something fundamentally wrong,.....me C’mon??......take a dose of reality, then c’mon.......

Pat

@juniata guy posted:

Playing devils advocate here Pat. If manufacturing them here in North America eliminates the zinc pest issue, how many would you really need to purchase as replacements?

Curt

Very true Curt, ....nobody would love to see the shift more than me, .....but the reality is no,.....there’s just no such thing as low cost manufacturing in North America, .....and unfortunately, our hobby falls into, ....low cost manufacturing...

Pat

Made in America doesn't mean zinc pest free.

C'mon time to change that. Sounds to me like you favor overseas manufacturing!

I'm tired of paying big bucks for Lionel products made in China that arrive damaged from the factory due to shoddy workmanship and inferior cheap packaginng.

If you want Chinese manufacturing prices from US labor, be prepared to work for perhaps $10,000 per year and breathe air that is full of coal derived microparticulates and other soot that will shorten your life by about 5-15 years.  Decent salaries, health care and clean air cost money.

Please provide facts to support your conspiracy theories or are you just trying to make us laugh?

@Phil55 posted:

I'm tired of paying big bucks for Lionel products made in China that arrive damaged from the factory due to shoddy workmanship and inferior cheap packaginng.

Phil55, everything (MTH, Lionel) I have purchased locally has been perfect out of the box. While there are problems, as shown by Michael above, buying locally would cut down on many of the issues. Zinc Rot would NOT be one of them.

I have zero electrical, operational and shipping issues buying from my local hobby store, I suspect you should try the same or at least have your store test out your purchase for you before you have them ship it.

Charlie

My experience buying primarily from Charles Ro these days (on-line) has been the same. Close to 100% perfect out of the box.  I'm sure there are lemons out there, but I haven't seen them over the 30 years of purchasing, give or take. The sky isn't falling, at least not yet .

@Phil55 posted:

C'mon time to change that. Sounds to me like you favor overseas manufacturing!

Nope, ....sure don’t,...wish it was different, ...BUT most of us don’t live on Fantasy Island, and we UNDERSTAND economics,.....

Pat

@Charlie posted:

Phil55, everything (MTH, Lionel) I have purchased locally has been perfect out of the box. While there are problems, as shown by Michael above, buying locally would cut down on many of the issues. Zinc Rot would NOT be one of them.

I have zero electrical, operational and shipping issues buying from my local hobby store, I suspect you should try the same or at least have your store test out your purchase for you before you have them ship it.

Charlie

Good point Charlie, ...sounds like you go home with known good products before you hit the doorway!.....solid plan!..

Pat

How come most of these zinc pest posts involve a train item that's recently removed from the box for the first time after a number of years?

While I don't deny there may be an issue. I'm waiting for the post of a train disintegrating as its going around the layout. Then I'll be a bit more concerned.

Everything I own comes out of the box when I receive it. It will stay out of the box until I go in one myself.

@RickO posted:

How come most of these zinc pest posts involve a train item that's recently removed from the box for the first time after a number of years?

While I don't deny there may be an issue. I'm waiting for the post of a train disintegrating as its going around the layout. Then I'll be a bit more concerned.

Everything I own comes out of the box when I receive it. It will stay out of the box until I go in one myself.

Amen to that Rick,....I could care less about the box,.....out it comes, I’ll find a home for it,.....I’ma enjoy it while I’m on the right side of the dirt!...sometimes I have to do a box purge, and to the dump they go!....last time I tried to run a box on the layout,......crickets,....😉

Pat

Wouldn't this be a a quality assurance / quality control issue which is owned by Lionel?  And independent of where items are manufactured?

I would hope there is a quality audit of each supplier (vendor or service provider) they use.  I would also guess that the audit would range from a simple quality report questionnaire to an on-site audit and everything in-between.

In my experience, no matter where you obtain your service or manufactured items, you can always find the lowest cost and the lowest quality in the same place, no mater where in the world you look.  The real challenge is finding the right balance of cost and quality.  Lionel failed to set the correct criteria for a qualified supplier.  That said, I do hope they at least have a system that prevents the future use of vendors that have provided poor quality items or services.

I, and I would guess others, have there own selection process (formal or informal) of who we select for providing services or items. And a process on how we provide service and merchandise to others.

By the way, a customer complaint / feedback is an important part of a quality assurance program.  Its your report card.

I don't have a local hobby shop so I purchase from online retailers. I bought 3 Legacy engines and 1 Lion Chief+ engine last year and every one of them arrived with broken parts and  or non working features due to shoddy CHINESE workmanship and inferior packaging. All problems were taken care of by either Lionel or the online dealer however when you pay high prices for these products they should arrive in good condition. I'm not an economist but I don't believe the horror stories her about the price of product being produced in the US. How does Micro Trains manage to deliver a domestically produced product at a competitive price?

I was speaking with close friend in Germany yesterday and the subject of quality in manufacturing came up.  His company has done business in China for a number of years and learned early on that the old saying “You get what you pay for” rings true:  if you want a certain item, but aren’t specific in how that item is produced and to the standard you’ve set, you’re in for a surprise.  I’ve only had one experience with modern-era zinc pest — so far— and hopefully it’s an isolated incident.  However, it’s been enough to influence future purchases of anything made after 2000.

Is there a good reason zinc is used rather than aluminum (aluminium), steel, or some other metal?

Zinc is oober cheap, and has a lot of weight,....two things needed is the model railroad hobby,......zinc can be injection molded, just like plastic,.....it has a lower melting point than steel....like way lower, making it an easy choice to cast our toys,...an aluminum cast boiler shell would weigh nothing, ....then they’d have to make a zinc weight to give it tractive effort,...

Pat

I guess my question wasn't very clear.  I was asking about couplers only.  They don't need to be heavy.

The buck stops with Lionel. Period.

We pay Lionel, not their contractors or sub-contractors, for a quality product.

If we receive an inferior product we need to stop crying about it and send it back. After the boxes of returned products start piling up at dealers and in the NC service-center, and warehouse  let's see what Lionel finally does about QC.

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way"

@Oneonta posted:

The buck stops with Lionel. Period.

We pay Lionel, not their contractors or sub-contractors, for a quality product.

If we receive an inferior product we need to stop crying about it and send it back. After the boxes of returned products start piling up at dealers and in the NC service-center, and warehouse  let's see what Lionel finally does about QC.

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way"

@Oneonta, I agree with your position but I don't believe it goes far enough.  A better solution would be not to buy the stuff in the first place but very few seem to listen and continue to get burned.  With the exception of a relatively inexpensive Lionel Polar Express set I bought  I opted out very early with the turn of the century in regards to buying any big ticket items and am glad I did.  By the way I did experience problems with the Polar Express engine which to this day are still unresolved.

@OKHIKER posted:

I opted out very early with the turn of the century in regards to buying any big ticket items and am glad I did. 

Sorry you feel this way. You’ve missed out on some terrific items in recent years. What you read and hear about on the forum is only a small amount of what is offered on a particular item. It’s your money though, so do as you see fit.

@romiller49 posted:

Sorry you feel this way. You’ve missed out on some terrific items in recent years. What you read and hear about on the forum is only a small amount of what is offered on a particular item. It’s your money though, so do as you see fit.

Your right Rod...... besides, the couplers the OP posted are not that bad. Run those trains!!!! Nick

Phil55, listen to the Notch 6 interview with Dick Maddox. He explains why Lionel made the move to overseas manufacturing and he also says that at one Lionel tried to make detailed steam locomotive here and the people building the tooling just couldn't get it right. They had to trashcan the entire project. Remember the trains of the PW era were a lot less detailed than today's trains therefore required tooling that was easier to make. After listening to that interview with Dick Maddox (twice) I have made my peace with overseas manufacturing. Unfortunately, it is a necessary evil for our hobby. I accept it and I have moved on. If things ever change which I extremely doubt that they will I will gladly support made in the USA trains. And by the way I don't like stuff made in China and try to buy stuff made in the USA whenever I have a choice. Especially tools.

Having said all that do I think great quality trains could be made here? Wholeheartedly yes, but there will never be enough numbers to make it profitable which is another advantage to overseas manufacturing. They will do smaller runs necessary for model trains.

I have been pretty lucky. Over the last 20 years I have one locomotive brand new out of the box from each (Lionel, MTH, and Atlas) that had to be sent back. The Atlas and MTH each had a bad motor. The Lionel had a problem with the drivers. All 3 were repaired.

I do agree with Oneonta, if a piece is bad it should be sent back. To me the scariest stories are not when something has a problem out of the box but when the manufacturer will not repair it or gives the person a hard time about repairing it.

@Hudson J1e posted:

Phil55, listen to the Notch 6 interview with Dick Maddox. He explains why Lionel made the move to overseas manufacturing and he also says that at one Lionel tried to make detailed steam locomotive here and the people building the tooling just couldn't get it right. They had to trashcan the entire project.

I agree with everything Phil posted above, and forgot about the Notch6 podcast with Dick Maddox. Which made me remember another Notch6 podcast with Scott Mann which basically said the same thing. We just don't have the skilled manpower, but we also can't match the wages, and price point that any of us would like. Heck, many of the forum posters already complain (incorrectly) about Lionels pricing even before a new catalog has arrived.

What makes anyone think that making choo choo trains in the US would be better than the current manufacturing locations AND remotely close in price? Please show me the evidence.

Charlie

@Charlie posted:

What makes anyone think that making choo choo trains in the US would be better than the current manufacturing locations AND remotely close in price? Please show me the evidence.

Charlie

Here’s a question... Has any company ever built any model trains with equal or better quality and detail than MTH’s and Lionel’s most recent offerings here in the US?

@phrankenstign posted:

Is there a good reason zinc is used rather than aluminum (aluminium), steel, or some other metal?

Is anyone really sure that these parts are actually zinc castings and not cast using one of the Zamac zinc alloys?

@rplst8 posted:

Here’s a question... Has any company ever built any model trains with equal or better quality and detail than MTH’s and Lionel’s most recent offerings here in the US?

rplst8, I understand what you are getting at and I agree. The answer is a qualified no. The Lionel Hudson from 1937 might be the one outlier and that was produced with tooling that was not made in the US, it was Italy if I remember correctly. Obviously, the rest of the loco, motor and final assembly were done in the US... and to go full circle, we had zinc pest problems within that project as well.

Honestly, after reading all the comments here, and on other similar threads, I am sorry for the guys who are having this type of problem. If (when?) I have an issue with zinc falling apart, I hope it is just a matter of swapping out a truck. The guys with the tenders and/or boilers with the zinc issue, now that is a real problem.

Charlie