Today's Prices, pictures, and comments on Aluminum K-Line passenger cars....

They were aluminum and the 21" cars were among the first mass produced scale length cars for three rail.  The newer offerings from GGD and Atlas O will be more accurate for a particular road but there will be a lot fewer road names offered.  

They weren't that rare to begin with but they probably aren't coming back on the secondary market that much either, aka the people buying them want them and are holding on.

These are available for way under $330.00. Not aluminum, but large.  Contact email is in my profile.

I laid in probably 20 of them at an average $90 each.  I thought they were truly bargains.  Converted them all to 2-rail.  They all look great - way better than my Kasiners.  3rd Rail cars are better values, but their price is now above the $300 mark, I believe.

Bob

If you are refering to the GGD passenger cars, think you will find they are offered below $150 each.

Never quite understood the fascination with these... the 21-inchers, that is. 

K-Line was certainly ahead of its time with the production of their aluminum cars -- whether they be passenger cars or tank cars.  Top-notch stuff.  But I don't get the $300/car price-point either.

Most folks' layouts can't handle 18" cars, so 21" is largely out of the question.  But as we've been told here... more and more folks are building "basement empires" (on the order of club-sized layouts) that can handle these gems nowadays.  So perhaps that's sustaining the stratospheric price-points.

David

The El Capitan and Superliner/Surfliner sets have always seemed to command a high price. They're the only ones to have ever made them in full length, and if you want them, I guess you have to pay to play.

I have a couple of the Amtrak cars (not superliners), they're nice cars, even by today's standards. Not GGD cars, but still, very respectably done cars, considering that some of them were made 10-12 years ago.

I would venture to guess that a lot of people who bought them the first time, have no plans to get rid of them unless they absolutely have to. For some of these sets, nothing has come along since then to make you want to upgrade.

The B&O Columbian coaches are coming at $799 for a four car set.  That's about $200 a car.

Jim

21 inches is the true scale length, and plenty of folks have 72" radius curves.

When coming from 15" and 18", 21" is truly impressive. I recently had the good fortune of snapping up K-Line's first 21" 7-car run of the Empire State Express on the FS board here for $525. That works out to $75 a car, although admittedly that's a great deal as opposed to true market value. I can see why they're so desirable; they're absolutely stunning. I'll post some photos when I get them home this weekend.

WoW

Prices are moving up fast.

Think that is about $50 a car more than I paid for a Broadway limited set.

and the soon to be released  P70far heavyweights are $140 each

The Sunset (3RD Rail) cars are brass and cheap at $300+. GGD are low volume plastic, nicely done and going up in price.  Many brass scale cars sell well over that amount. Chi-town station in Michigan runs many name passenger trains, all brass, and pulled by brass locomotives with exotic gearboxes.

That said, I think K-line aluminum passenger cars were and still are great values. Upper end products will always have better value.

Yep....many of the comments you guys have made are very true.  The K-Line aluminum cars were and are still very nice.  I have 3 sets of the Amtrak 21" Superliners and will probably keep them since it seems we may never see them re-run again.

Alan

K-Line made the only true to prototype Canadian Pacific 18" aluminum cars including the observation/dome car. Lionel's new PWC 18" Canadian Pacific cars are not to prototype like most of their Canadian offerings and they are very expensive. I have two K-Line 5 car sets and two add-on cars (that came from a set break up). It's next to impossible to find them at a reasonable price these days. The CP aluminum cars are hands down the best out there.

Mike

Really???  I'll buy the fact that lots of folks have O-72, but that's not 72" radius.  O-72 is 72" diameter.  HUGE difference.

21-inch cars would look magnificent on sweeping 6-foot radius curves.  But I sincerely doubt too many folks have that kind of real estate except for the true O-scale crowd -- and even at that, we're likely talking club-sized layouts.

Running 21" passenger cars on O-72 curves may be doable, but it's a completely different look than running them on the much broader curves for which they were designed.  The 21-inches begin to "look good" around O-96 but their sweet-spot kicks in above O-120+ where the overhang becomes less and less an issue.

Even at $200 a pop, that's a big premium to pay for 21"-incher's:  new or used.  Someone here on the forum had the beautiful Lionel Texas Special set up for sale at a terrific price a couple of weeks or so, and that's one of the few Lionel 21-inch sets out there -- probably based on K-Line tooling (I surmise).  I would have jumped on that set in a heart-beat if it had 18" cars. 

David

David....I believe those K-Line 21" Texas Special cars to which you refer were being offered by Brian (Passenger Train Collector)....beautiful cars for sure!!

Alan

I'm totally with David on this one...said it several times, various similar threads.

If any of you have any experience with the more popular HO realm, would you say an 18" curve in HO is a 'wide radius'??  When you were modeling in HO, did you buy a set of full-length passenger cars and attempt to run them on your 'wide' 18" radius curves.  Try backing that set up around 'wide' 18" radius curves?

Probably not, no, and no.  In fact some of the manufacturers of HO cars in the same quality/detail realm of the O-scale K-Line cars put a fine-print caveat on their boxes and in their advertisements...something like "24" radius curves recommended", or "24" radius curves minimum".  Gee, that works out to O-96 in O3R parlence.

Like many of the basement empires, I have O72 minimum curves...lots of them.  For concentric situations and in some of the accommodating corners I have as wide a curve as O120.  As much as I admire the looks and prototypical expanse of the 21" cars, on my layout 15" is the norm, 18" the rare exception re passenger cars. 

Although they're not as expansive as the 21"ers, as a train they 'flow' better around all of my curves.  Put another way...since this whole hobby is based on huge doses, massive quantities of imagination...my O3R riders are less likely to make a leap into the adjacent drainage ditch when, just as they head for the diner and are leaping betwixt the diaphragms, the train hurtles into a 'wide radius' O72 curve at 'notch 8' on your ZW.  There's less clean-up and happier passengers whether sipping soup in the diner, Manhattans in the Obs/Lounge,  or seeking relief in the lavatories.

Unfortunately, I...and David...must be in the HUGE MINORITY on this issue.  That's 'cuz the makers of benchmark passenger cars...interiors, riders, partitions, LED's, diaphragms, separate grabs, sprung trucks, underbody details, window blinds, etc., etc.,etc., blah, blah, blah...have absolutely NO interest in our 'shorty' segment of the market.  Too small, no money, no demand, no lobby, no influence, no future.  Besides, we have all the shorties from ages past to work with.  The 21"ers have been neglected far too long.  Follow the money.  So sayeth Lionel, MTH, Atlas, GGD, ...even Bachmann, current stakeholder in the K-Line benchmark tooling. 

The shorties will be around with their 2 bulbs casting their ridership as silhouettes on frosted windows for many years to come.  That's their market, that's their future.  Which is why I also believe there is a sizeable market out there for shorty conversions...adding LED lighting, interiors, ridership, diaphragms, windows with blinds/shades, closer coupling, separate grabs, etc., etc.,etc.. 

Oh well, TEHO, I say.  It's just MHO,...like eveyone else's.

AWHFY?

KD

I think the prices on these cars are up because the demand is up for detailed scale cars. Manufacturers have been improving the detail on their engines for a while but not necessarily making passenger cars to go with them. If you have the room why not get 21" instead of 18" cars. Prices from Lionel were approaching GGD. Now GGD has leaped ahead again. >>200 bucks/ea.

Pete

David and KD - Whether they look good on O-72 or not is irrelevant. Fact remains, O-72 can handle them, and lots of people have O-72 curves. This is the same concept as people who lament the overhang of a scale Big Boy on O-72 curves, but that doesn't stop them does it?

My 8' x 16' layout has O-72 curves, and even though in that restricted space all I can get is a simple oval of it, I'm still happy because I can still run the train.

The answer is very simple, the law of supply and demand. There is not much supply on the market today and the demand is high, hence sale prices are very good for the seller.

I held out for a long time and wouldn't buy anything longer than 18" cars for my layout because I have min 072 curves. A friend brought his K-Line 21" cars over and they ran and looked fine (in my humble opinion). I liked his so much that I then bought a set of the K-Line 21" California Zephyr cars and they are now my favorite by far. Now I want to replace all my 18" cars with 21" but as has been pointed out, that can be an expensive proposition. They do look a little awkward on 072 curves, but they also look fabulous on the straightways! The worst look is going through stacked 072 switches into and out of my Union Station.

Art

My OK Engines 21" aluminum Budd cars have an overhang of about 1-7/16" (from side of car to side of inside outside rail) on 072 curves.

What's the overhang on an 18" car on 072 curves?

If I'm going to pay $200+ for a car, it'll be from GGD not K-Line old stock, aluminum or plastic makes no difference to me.

I do have some of the K-Line 18" plastic cars that I have repainted, taken out the window strips, and installed interiors, and they make really good cars.

I recently bought an aluminum body shell from OK Engines (SAL Sun-Lounge) for $50, but I'll end up spending 3 or 4 times that fixing it up (adding trucks, flooring, interior, details).  But being nobody offers what I want, it's the only way to get it.

I love the K-line 21" passenger cars but for me 18" is the limit i can have on my layout with out the train looking bizzare. 

I do agree the 21"  K-Line cars are really nice but the 18" are just as nice.

Dgauss

Not all GGD cars are plastic. Scott chooses the material based on what tooling is required to get the prototype look. GGD heavyweight passenger cars are injection molded plastic (ABS?) so as to include rivet detail.  The GGD lightweight streamlined passenger cars made to date have extruded aluminum bodies.  It will be interesting to see what material GGD will use for the ATSF Super Chief as the prototype had cars from three different builders (PS, ACF, Budd), each with very different body styles due to construction techniques and materials.  The Budd cars were all stainless steel with fluted roofs. The ACF and PS cars had steel bodies with stainless panels on their sides.  ACF cars had rivets on the roof panel while PS roofs were welded.  Some may be disconcerted by the differences in the same train - but non-uniform consists were quite common in postwar passenger trains. 

Ed Rappe

At $200 each for the new GGD B&O Aluminum scale cars are they expensive? yes

Do I wish they were cheaper? yes

Are they prototypical? yes

Will they go on my layout? yes

Its always a 'to each his own' thing.  Some folks like to have lots of inexpensive cars and don't care how prototypical, or not, they might be.  Some folks like to have fewer, more prototypical looking cars.  Neither approach is right, and we are luckly to have a choice.

$200 is a lot for a passenger car.  But, if you want to compare apples to apples, my SGL Reading passengers cars (which I picked up on the secondary market) are also prototypical, but were done in brass 10 years ago and originally listed for $1200 for a 5 car set.  That comes out to $240 a car.

Regarding track diameter and car size, that to is a personal decision.  Would 21" cars look great on 120" diameter curves? You bet.  But for a lot of folks, they also look okay on 72" or 80" diameter curves as well.  Also, many layouts don't consist of just curves.  Many folks have nice long straight sections as well.

Jim

I have two sets of 21" K-Line Milwaukee Road cars (one maroon and orange Hiawatha, one UP yellow), which by good luck and good timing I was able to acquire for $100-150 a car. These, and the GGD heavyweights, are strictly for running at the club/museum layout. My home layout is too small, although it's physically possible to run them since I have 0-72 curves. 

To run on my relatively small layout at home I have mainly K-Line 15" cars. These are identical to the 21" cars except for length. Same cross-section, same trucks, same interior detail, including passengers on most of them. I also have some 18" cars, Lionel, K-Line and MTH sets, but even they look a bit outsize on my layout. For a smaller layout I highly recommend the K-Line 15-inchers, which are pretty easy to find and typically sell for a lot less than the 21-inchers. I'm not sure if they will run on 0-31 or not, but they are definitely good for 0-42. 

I have a few of the ATSF K-Line 21” Aluminum Passenger cars 3 rail in both the low level and High level with the transition cars and the full Vista Dome’s.

I do really like my cars a lot but the passenger terminals to handle these cars do get a bit large when you are trying to run a long consist and the power draw can get to be a lot if you have not converted to LED’s.

Only a few years back the K-Line cars were running a lot more than today. The Transition cars I have watched on the bay have run over $1200 for the 2 cars, while not typical these 2 cars do demand quite a premium as can the full lengthVistadome.

I think what many people have said above are part of the answer to the cost. Another factor is the GGD lack of good communication with the community resulting in people who would buy GGD not being aware of their plans.

Being a one man band like Scott is has to be hard. He does a good job of answering your questions while on the road. The GGD cars are very nice but the lack of an inventory or only producing some of the cars over a long period of time OR limited road names goes against today’s culture of instant gratification.

When a K-Line set is offered as a set rather than broken up it can deliver a nice price for the seller, but not always on the bay.

I also have seen a set broken up into individual auctions and have wondered which way the seller does best. Would guess it depends a on the buyers and how much they value obtaining a set at once.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-Line-Amtrak-21-Transition-Sleeper-Aluminum-Superliner-K4603-43900-see-pics-/111006016555?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item19d879642b

$725 for one car, and scratched to boot.

I have quite a few of the K-Line cars coming across a great deal several years ago from Grand Central LTD.  In addition to the entire run of 21" California Zephyr cars, I got all of the ATSF Hi-Levels, about a half dozen of the single level ATSF 21" cars, all of the Amtrak 21" Superliner cars, and an ATSF ABBBA set of locomotives.  All of these for around 2K.  Thought I did pretty good!!  Now I guess I really did do goooood!!!

Alan

Alan I bet Rick would to have those back at that price.

I bet you are right Bill...  Rick is a really nice guy and I just stumbled on that stash.  I called him looking for one passenger car and he said that he had just received these in from a fellow that had purchased them from his store but had unfortunately ended up sick and had to sell them.  I actually got the ATSF full length Mountaineer observation car too!  I was looking up how long ago that was and it ended up being longer ago than I thought.....6 years ago already!!

Alan

I never bought any K-Line passenger from Rick but I think my first ones were in that range of time also. I did not get in on the blow sales but did find sets at some shops about to close up. I did find that a lot of people were buying them to 2 rail them.

Yeah...I believe a lot of the 2-rail scale folks snapped them up and did so modifications.  If you remember, you were helping me identify some that I was looking for back then....yep, that many years have gone by already!!  I even found a set of all the Amtrak Superliners that had been two-railed along with an MTH Genesis which also had been gutted and two-railed with a horizontal motor installed.  I bought the set and locomotive for around $600.00.  They had been used but were spotless.  I still have them just like I found them and will perhaps let them find a new home someday.

Alan

Yes very nice cars. Always enjoyed a train club that did several shows with a long string 2 sets of the silver 21" cars they looked really good.

I got a set of Williams Burlington engines nice bright silver to pull a circus train, and when I showed them to my friend he said he was selling his K-Line silver matching 21" CZ passenger set and he gave me an offer I could not refuse.

He was going for the new correct Atlas cars.

Love these things sorry for reflection in shots a quick picture. They have the prime display space on my shelves and always run them when at shows, They were 2 railed but roll along fine on large diameter loops of track. Click on images for a larger view.

Great looking cars nicely detailed not perfect but bright and good enough.

I cannot top those photos, but there are quite a few K-Line 21" cars here.  Bottom shelf is all K-Line, about half with Wasatch trucks.  Top row has two.  Bare aluminum rack has one, and the SP cars are either Kasiner or Speer.  This just scratches the surface . . .

Some of the passenger cars that are on shelves

Charlie:

Very nice collection of PRR passenger cars.

Charlie, Very nice and neat.

Great pictures!! 

Charlie...that is a PRR lover's dream...WOW!!

Alan

KJ,BOB2 & Charlie  W O W Very very nice sets of cars

Bob, nice collection. I bet the cars look great with Wasatch trucks.

I have 4 K-Line NYC cars. I was considering selling them but after reading this thread maybe I will keep them. I assume the NYC cars are not one of the cars that fetch a high price. I've only run them once and it was at the NJ Hi-railers layout.

My problem is I started convert one of them to 2 rail but I saved the parts that I took off the car somewhere and misplaced them. I know I didn't throw them out so once I find them I can restore the car back to its original configuration. Or I if I could find a pair of K-Line 3 rail trucks that will work too.

Should I sell the cars or keep them?