Track blocks

How can I get it to stop all four bricks at the same time if one breaker pops?

Use the E-Stop button on the remote.

Clem,

   This problem should not be happening, use the 12 track join building discipline for each block, to eliminate your power problem.  As Barry indicated use the E-Stop on your hand held remote control when you want to shut everything down, I also have several Etekcity remote control hand helds, placed around my layout for when some else has the HHRC.  They shut everything down immediately thru out the entire layout.

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

His issue appears to be that a derailment causes one TIU channel that services one block to shut down. However, some lashup members are in an adjacent block that remains powered up. This leaves some lashup members shut down while others are still attempting to move.

The best remedy is to simply press E-Stop to shut down power to all TIU channels.

here's THE FIX. Take the units off the tail end and put then up front where they belong and get a caboose on that train.  

Barry that is what I do now, but sometimes the entire train isn't in sight. Back when I didn't have blocks it was no problem just weak signal, now signal is better but power is an issue. What would happen if I tied all the TIU inputs together? Would that cause the breaker to trip on all bricks? I'd probably cook something before that happened uh.

Clem  k

How many total bricks/channels do you have? I was thinking about relays, but that could be really ugly if you have a lot of bricks/channels. E-Stop is probably the easiest for sure.

Clem,

You cannot safely combine either the inputs or outputs if the inputs are not all from the same power source.

If you really want to have all channels lose power when any one channel loses power, you can easily design circuit, using relays or other devices that will do this for you. However, this would be outside of the confines of DCS.

For example:

• Pass each channel's output through a series of 4 relays 16 relays in total for 4 channels
• The first relay on each channel is made to stay closed using the power from the first channel's input, the second relay by the second channel's input, and so on
• If any input channel's brick stops providing power because its circuit breaker has opened, all blocks would lose power.

Barry, would you ever connect the TIU outputs together?  I thought that was a giant no-no, am I mistaken?  Perhaps I don't understand what you're talking about.

John,

At no point are any of the channel inputs or outputs connected across channels.

The HOT output of each channel passes through a series of 4 single-pole, single-throw, normally open (NO) relays. There are 4 relays for each channel; 16 relays in all. Each relay uses power that is jumpered off from an input channel to keep the relay closed.

The first relay in each 4-relay series is kept closed using the power jumpered off from Variable #1 input, the 2nd relay uses power from Fixed #1 input, the 3rd from Fixed #2, and the 4th from Variable #2.

There are 4 pairs of wires jumpering from the terminals of each channel input, each pair powering 4 of 16 relays. If any channel's input is interrupted by its brick's breaker tripping, the same relay in each channel's 4-relay series will open, shutting down all 4 channels.

OK, I was pretty sure I simply misunderstood what you were saying.

I think you could do the fail safe relays with 4-4PDT relays with one set of contacts on each relay wired in series through the other relays for each channel. I think that is the same thing you are saying only with fewer relays. Same amount of contacts but less wiring for all the coils.

I was thinking about the TIU inputs as well, but the outputs would also protect against the TIU fuse blowing or other TIU mishaps. Not sure how that would affect the DCS signal though? The relays would only pull in once at start up and then all you would have is just the closed contacts which I wouldn't think would hurt anything? Not sure on this part?

OK... so then is both handles of a Z4000 considered one power source?

Clem, it is my understanding that if you connect both outputs, the Z4000 shutsmdown.

Gregg, tell that to UPRR.  In Kansas, they have locos on both ends.  The old WM would put 2 2-8-0's at each end, plus 3 in the middle, of its 70-car coal trains in WV

Clem,

so then is both handles of a Z4000 considered one power source?

No, it's two power sources with the same Common.

I think you could do the fail safe relays with 4-4PDT relays

No, you cannot. A 4-pole relay may accomplish the same thing power-wise, however, it doesn't achieve the objective of shutting down all channels if any one channel goes down.

You need to have every channel involved in contributing to keeping power flowing to all channels.

So how do I get more power to my track?

Clem,

So how do I get more power to my track?

You wire the TIU in Passive Mode and either use a more powerful transformer directly connected to the tracks, or use a TPC (or equivalent) to combine two power sources and then connect those directly to the track.

However, if you do that, you lose the E-Stop capability, as well as the use of variable channels in variable mode.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Unfortunately, Barry, your system will not work. If relay number 2 falls, then 3 and 4 will fall, but #1 will still be powered. In professional electrical terms, you are creating a "race condition" of sorts.

Better to have 4 relays, none of which is dependent upon the one that is superior to it. You use a separate holding supply, that is used to get all 4 relays powered, through a "start" button. Then you take all 4 track supplies, and have them operate 4 more relays, each of which is ON when the associated track section is ON.  The N/C contacts of these four relays are wired in series with the holding path of the first 4 relays. One relay with 5 sets of contacts would work, but you'll have a hard time finding one.  You can use two relays, if there are enough sets of contacts.

If any track circuit opens, its relay falls, opening the series supply to the held relays.  No one relay is superior to any other. "If one goes out, they all go out."

You need 8 relays, and one momentary pushbutton ("start") to get the 4 track relays to operate and hold.  Adding more N/C momentary pushbuttons ("stop") will allow the operator to kill all the track from any one or multiple locations around the layout.

Barry I take it a TPC essentially makes two bricks, act like one transformer. What does Lionel use the TPC for?

Clem 

Arthur,

your system will not work.

I must disagree. The 4 relays on each of the TIU's channel outputs have their 4 circuit breakers wired in series. If any one opens, it opens on all 4 channels and all 4 sets of tracks connected to those channels lose power. 

Each of the 4 output circuits is dependent upon all 4 of the input circuits being powered up. If any one circuit breaker on a brick trips, that TIU input circuit goes down and causes its 4 associated relays, one on each of the TIU's output channesl, to open. That shuts down all 4 outputs.

The other 3 relays in each output circuit are still closed and those channels still are powered within the TIU, however, none of the tracks are receiving power.

I space out my engines so that there's never more than four or five in a block depending on whether I'm using smoke. It takes planning on both where the blocks are positioned when built and the engines when running.

 Is your mainline divided equally? It makes things easier.

Clem,

I take it a TPC essentially makes two bricks, act like one transformer.

That's correct. It allows more amperage to be available to the tracks than would be available from one transformer alone.

What does Lionel use the TPC for?

You answered your first question with your second question.  

I was thinking something like this might work for the shut down. Then I read Arthurs post about the emergency stop buttons so I scribbled that in. More stop locations could be added before R5 & R6 if wanted or needed. With no emergency stop buttons, delete the start/stop station and R5 & R6. I didn't really think through the relay coil voltages, just the stop circuits and the common was just thrown in to eliminate confusion with added lines, it wouldn't be wired as shown, each channel would have it's own common. Opinions?

Only comment I have is that shutting down any channel with relays such as are suggested, for whatever reason, will shut down the entire layout. E-stop will do the same.   Often if I have a derailment on one channel, I will leave that channel shut down, using other areas, until I wander around the layout to fix it. 

Use of e-stop vice relays permits the operator to make a decision on how much should be shut down.

I think clem k wanted all of his bricks to shut down if any one brick tripped. He wanted it to be automatic without having to use the DCS e-stop. Barry suggested the e-stop early on.

Hello Joe………I don't run the same consist all the time so planning the blocks ahead of time doesn't help. My layout is just one single track loop 3 scale miles long. I run multiple trains at the same time, so even if the one train gets stop correctly there is another one coming to run into the first that still might be occupying more than one block. Seem's like the only thing for me to do is Barry's or rtr12 relay system. When my loop did not have blocks, a circuit breaker on the Z4000 (using both sides) shut the whole thing down. 

Clem 

Barry & Clem,

    I still do not see the problem here, use the e-stop on the DCS hand held or the Etekcity remote control unit, on the entire layout, to shut everything down when required, and build correctly with the 12 track join discipline per each block, and there should be no problem while running, use as many different in phase transformers as required to spread out the power draw properly, thru out the full layout.  His problem is not being set up correctly, and not having a complete emergency shut down system in place.  Trying to use only one transformer is a looser also.

Scotty we need more Power.

PCRR/Dave