Trade off for our trains

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Keep them lubed and clean and they'll run till the wheels fall off.

I think that Marx made the most reliable trains. They almost always run.

You can't compare modern trains to their PW counterparts.  Many PW train use the same parts across the line.  They have less going on so less to break.  It's mostly all mechanical and very few have discrete parts. 

Today's trains are very part specific to get the detail that the folks want.  The parts from a scale diesel does no fit another diesel like in the PW era.

It's like comparing 2 cups and some string to a cell phone.  

Sorry but this topic comes up from time to time and the comparison is just not applicable.

Mechanically the new trains are more robust. If all modern trains had were E-units they would be just as "durable" as you think postwar trains are. 

Couple notes on modern trains. I bought a 15 year old MIB Premier Santa Fe Texas with PS2 3V. Never been run, 15 years old. Stuck a BCR in it and lubed it. Fired right up and has been running great. Same thing with TMCC stuff. I have a couple 25 year old TMCC locomotives that work flawlessly. 

The great thing about electronics is they work or they don't. No kinda works but doesn't like an electromechanical E-unit. Use correct circuit protection with modern trains and you'll be fine. It isn't rocket science....

Lou1985 posted:

 

The great thing about electronics is they work or they don't. 

The bad thing is when they don't, try getting a replacement board if it's more than a few years old

One of the shortcomings of postwar engines is they don't have traction tires falling off. 

The more parts that are inside, the more that can break or be defective. Simple is better, which is why I’ve stayed with PW

Simple can be boring.

MartyE posted:

Lou1985 posted:

 

The great thing about electronics is they work or they don't. 

The bad thing is when they don't, try getting a replacement board if it's more than a few years old

I ran into this with my Weaver Passenger Shark AB set that I bought used.  The TAS boards were falling and there are no replacement parts.  So I had Alex_M gut the engines and replace the TAS electronics with ERR.  They now run great.

When ERR parts are no longer available, I will gut the engines again and replace them with whatever is available. Probably by then BlueTooth will be obsolete.   Maybe we will be able to work them through direct mind control

MartyE posted:

Simple can be boring.

It's not boring when the imagination kicks in. 

Rusty

CAPPilot posted:

When ERR parts are no longer available, I will gut the engines again and replace them with whatever is available. Probably by then BlueTooth will be obsolete.   Maybe we will be able to work them through direct mind control

This works on locomotives with very basic functionality.  As soon as you introduce specific features that all goes out the window.

This topic comes up over and over.

Apples and oranges. Newer stuff does a far better job of mimicking the prototype, and thats what interests me.

If O guage trains were still "postwar" in operation, I'd be modelling H.O. Different strokes for different folks. A coffee grinder racing around a tight loop isn't for everyone. My oldest TMCC loco is nearly 20 years old and has been trouble free the whole time.

Having said that, there were times in the postwar era where trains were defective, right out of the box. I remember a story in CTT where Madison hardware was doing exchanges on defective postwar locos.

( On a side note. I still question the transformer layout setup of  some folks on this forum that seem to have a higher failure rate on their modern trains. I don't agree with saving a buck and using an antiquated transformer for your $1000 CC train)

Oh, and BTW, I don't need my trains to last 200 years either,  only just as long as my brief time here . No one else I know sees the value or has the interest in them that I do, and thats fine. I don't worry about handing down my T.V.or car etc, either.

Really no comparison across the era's. I am a new era advocate and user. All the new features are great but come with a steep cost up front and down the road. Its tough to get mechanical parts and once the maker moves on to another generation of circuitry you need an upgrade which is almost as expensive as getting a new engine. When an issue arises and it sometimes does, I will assess each situation accordingly and make my decision whether to repair of discard. Of course any discarded engine will go to the scrap pile for parts, Luckily no engine yet populate this pile.

There are a few technicians out there that can fix MTH (Vinnie Ricci) and Lionel (Alex Mallie) in the NY Metro area.

Why do people keep forgetting that Post-war has already been yesterdays trash? I meet more people that have stated they "wish their (fill in the blank with mom, dad, aunt, brother wife) did not throw out or give away the post war trains.

Also, if you really care that your train is going to work in 50 years, you should just sell everything and get yourself a Brio  Thomas the Tank engine push train, unless you think you will be unable to push a choo-choo around your living room floor...

Charlie

Different strokes for Different Folks.

Sometimes things do not work as you wished and I m sure that happened from day one with all toy train manufactures.

Enjoy what you have and what you like,
This is just a hobby have fun, problems can be fixed or just chock the up to life experiences.

I usually buy junk trains mainly prewar and those are already broken and need to be repaired.

Rusty Traque posted:

MartyE posted:

Simple can be boring.

It's not boring when the imagination kicks in. 

Rusty

Older trains required a little imagination, which resulted in a lot of fun. Today's trains are very realistic. They are much less toy-like and more scale models. A different type of creativity comes into play today. We have folks in the hobby who are high end modelers. They need to imagine the scene in their heads to then recreate it on their layout. With that type of skill, the new trains can be made to run. Maybe blown electronics need to be completely gutted and replaced with something else. In the end, I think it depends on what is important to you.

George

I have PW American Flyer along with 3 new era engines.  There are likes and dislikes with both.  I really like being able to turn the smoke units off in the newer trains espically when you have a cold or someone is visiting that has an allergy affected by the smoke.   I still buy PW but will include a few more new engines that I like either the road name or paint scheme.

Joe Hohmann posted:

One of the shortcomings of postwar engines is they don't have traction tires falling off. 

Long Live Magne-Traction!

MartyE posted:

Lou1985 posted:

 

The great thing about electronics is they work or they don't. 

The bad thing is when they don't, try getting a replacement board if it's more than a few years old

Well yesterday I popped a PS32 board with 5V connectors into a Premier FEF that had a failed 5V board. Still has all the functionality of the original board.

Now if you're talking a Legacy locomotive with a bunch of smoke functions you might be in trouble in 20 years.

Basic sound, smoke, lightning command stuff you'll be fine with upgrades down the line. It's the stuff with a bunch of smoke functions that might be an issue. Just don't short stuff out 😄.

Charlie posted:

Also, if you really care that your train is going to work in 50 years, you should just sell everything and get yourself a Brio  Thomas the Tank engine push train, unless you think you will be unable to push a choo-choo around your living room floor...

Charlie

I love and run Postwar, Charle, but I really don't care if they are still working in 50 years. I don't think I'll make it to the ripe old age of 119!

RickO posted:

 

( On a side note. I still question the transformer layout setup of  some folks on this forum that seem to have a higher failure rate on their modern trains. I don't agree with saving a buck and using an antiquated transformer for your $1000 CC train)

 

There's a local guy who thinks all modern PS3 and Legacy locomotives are trash. Keeps killing boards. He runs conveniently with a postwar ZW. No fast blow fuses, fast acting breakers, or TVS diodes between the ZW and the track. I think I figured out why he keeps killing modern locomotives.....

Disclaimer: I am no longer an active 3-railer. (But I do like it.)

As an avid modeler in Wienie Scale (HO), I like the bells n' whistles (literally) that my Tsunami 1's, 2's, Loksound, QSI, etc, DCC/Sound decoders provide. DCC/Sound was a game changer for me in HO.

HOWEVER...

When it comes to my still-resident 3-rail tastes, I think that, should I ever return to 3-rail (because of eyesight, dexterity, etc), it would very likely be with select Postwar (Baby Hudson/Berks PW steam, Alco FA's, 6464-type rolling stock etc) in a 1950s "city" setting of sincere scenery. Back in my 3-rail days, I was most content with the simplicity side of things. When I started trying to make 3-rail a stand-in for "scale", my 3-rail house of cards collapsed on me, and I went back to 2 rail (S first, then a return to HO).

In retrospect, my lesson for me and 3-rail: As long as I was playing with "traditional" sized trains, I was accepting of the center rail. When I tried to make it be something else, the center rail became a big distraction.

Having said all this: I had Postwar and I had some more modern tech. (Lionel and MTH w/early sound and such.) My umpteen years old Postwar NEVER failed to perform as designed. My newer tech failed in regards to electronics.

Yes, to me it's apples to apples: Toy trains SHOULD be designed to be played with over the long haul. The older stuff accomplishes that goal decades in, decades out, with minimal maintenance. The newer stuff may be capable of doing so mechanically (though I highly suspect plastic gears won't go the distance) but likely the electronics will let you down. Thus, IMHO, they fall short in the "designed to be played with" category.

The above from the "FWIW Dept."

Andre

Lou1985 posted:

RickO posted:

 

( On a side note. I still question the transformer layout setup of  some folks on this forum that seem to have a higher failure rate on their modern trains. I don't agree with saving a buck and using an antiquated transformer for your $1000 CC train)

 

There's a local guy who thinks all modern PS3 and Legacy locomotives are trash. Keeps killing boards. He runs conveniently with a postwar ZW. No fast blow fuses, fast acting breakers, or TVS diodes between the ZW and the track. I think I figured out why he keeps killing modern locomotives.....

So, some father goes into a train shop and picks up a fancy new loco and then buys a refurbished ZW, and it is his fault that the engine blows? How come the train manufacturer can't put a 25 cent TVS in the $1000 engine? I don't know which one is the dumb one in this equation: the ignorant buyer or the lazy manufacturer.

George

George S posted:

So, some father goes into a train shop and picks up a fancy new loco and then buys a refurbished ZW, and it is his fault that the engine blows? How come the train manufacturer can't put a 25 cent TVS in the $1000 engine? I don't know which one is the dumb one in this equation: the ignorant buyer or the lazy manufacturer.

George

Both but IMO I think the .25 increase in the cost would be worth it.  The cheap, not lazy, manufacturer should install the 25 cent part.

I care that my trains run today.  As of today:

EVERY ONE of my command control engines is partially disabled.  NONE of them is fully functional.   Not one.  All require expensive repairs and parts IF the parts are available (not all are).

ONLY TWO of my PW/MPC/LTI engines are having problems.  One needs a cleaning.  The other needs a wire fixed on the tether because I stupided up and tore it out of the connector.

I also care that they run 50 years down the road:

I do not buy into our throw-away society (pun intended).  Over-flowing landfills, economic weakness, and rampant consumer mentality damage our country and our people.

I *do* intend to hand down my trains--and my sons certainly intend for me to do so.  They also expect to inherit my '69 pick-up (a daily driver), my 2-cylinder JD tractors (both older than any of my trains), and my father's and grandfather's tools.

Nothing productive ever comes of these threads, but the modern guys and the prewar/postwar guys butting heads and never resolving  anything .....if you’re happy with your old stuff, say so, no need to compare two things that have no comparison....the lure of buzzing e units, and open frame motors has its own charm, but for others, more realistic operation is where it’s at...and we’re willing to take the good with the bad....stuff breaks ...period...but we’re willing to take the challenge, make the repairs and move on....if you don’t understand the new technology, and just because a particular piece fails, and you yourself can’t fix it...doesn’t make it a horrible product...yes, the new stuff can be difficult or seemingly impossible to repair, but it can be fixed....I amongst others accept the challenge....it’s time for me to move on with my challenges.....I think I had an old mechanical E unit spreader hooked on my diaper as a youngster.....learn the new stuff, and it’s not so hard to work on.....and as far as boards that can’t be had....there’s more than one way to skin a cat.........Pat

The issue with modern day Mint in the box trains is the electrioncs have a finite life span.  Those electronic boards will NOT last as long as the train will.  We are also seeing a rise in zinc pest in trains made overseas.  Something that was pretty much eliminated in most USA made toy trains before WWII.  The only worry with postwar Lionel trains, if mint in the box, is the battery for the horn in electrics and diesels.  Factory installed, we have all seen the damage a leaking battery can cause to an otherwise perfect train and its box.  I enjoy mint trains as much as the next guy, but that battery better be removed or the model be able to be seen outside of the box before I part with my $$.   The challenge for the future will be replacement circuit boards for the current era of toy trains that will have dead boards in a few years and need replacements to function as designed.        AD

George S posted:

So, some father goes into a train shop and picks up a fancy new loco and then buys a refurbished ZW, and it is his fault that the engine blows? How come the train manufacturer can't put a 25 cent TVS in the $1000 engine? I don't know which one is the dumb one in this equation: the ignorant buyer or the lazy manufacturer.

George

Neither, the incompetent dealer is the dumb one. 

artfull dodger posted:

The issue with modern day Mint in the box trains is the electrioncs have a finite life span.  Those electronic boards will NOT last as long as the train will.  We are also seeing a rise in zinc pest in trains made overseas.  Something that was pretty much eliminated in most USA made toy trains before WWII.  The only worry with postwar Lionel trains, if mint in the box, is the battery for the horn in electrics and diesels.  Factory installed, we have all seen the damage a leaking battery can cause to an otherwise perfect train and its box.  I enjoy mint trains as much as the next guy, but that battery better be removed or the model be able to be seen outside of the box before I part with my $$.   The challenge for the future will be replacement circuit boards for the current era of toy trains that will have dead boards in a few years and need replacements to function as designed.        AD

No modern locomotives with PCB’s have a “best if used by” date....so the statement the boards have an expiration date is false.

old toy trains are not immune to issues with zinc rot.....I’ve seen a plethora of prewar stuff crumble into pieces....even the fabled 700E’s and 763’s can suffer from it....so that’s another false....

agree with you, the challenge for the future will be more aftermarket vendors stepping to the plate and offering repair/replacement parts for the modern stuff.......Pat

 I was just trying to say that say in twenty years I wouldn't hesitate to buy a mint postwar engine. But one of today's modern engines I would probably worry if it even would run anymore. 

harmonyards posted:

<snip: a thoughtful post>

When we're talking investments in "toys" that is well into the 3-digit range and often into the 4 digit range, then I would not be "okay" with accepting the failure rates of newer product and expenses as part of the price to pay for the hobby, and I highly suspect I am not alone in this opinion.

I guess we'll just need to respectfully disagree on that point.

I lean toward the opinion that if the poor state of quality control/etc is never discussed in a public manner so that the any manufacturers that frequent this forum can readily see how their consuming public is beginning feel about current trends, then the trend will continue to offer crappy products as long as they continue to be purchased. So, to me it seems it would be beneficial for the issue to be publicly discussed, even with the "old vs new" analogies that enter in.

Bottom line: This hobby is about having fun. Those that get frustrated with the failure rates of their very expensive toys and the resultant sidelining of their prized acquisition(s) because of electronic failure, zinc pest, whatever, I can assure you that 99.9% of such hobbyists are not having "fun" with that aspect.

Just my thoughts.

Andre

palallin posted:

EVERY ONE of my command control engines is partially disabled.  NONE of them is fully functional.   Not one.  All require expensive repairs and parts IF the parts are available (not all are).

Interesting.  I have 43 command control engines I've procured over the years and while many were conventional upgraded to command control, about half were new or new in the box.  I've had only four failures: a MTH Y3 that had the wires too tight to the front coupler and they shorted on the frame (easy fix), a new Atlas diesel that smoked the first time power was applied to it (fixed under warranty); a new in box Lionel scale T-1 that worked when I bought it but failed after I installed cruise control (Gunrunnerjohn repaired a broken trace on the board which the original installer missed), an used Weaver Passenger Shark that had an incredibly bad repair done to it (Alex_M fixed).  I had three engines that had minor issues: a Q1 fixed by gunrunerjohn, and the whistle smoke on a Lionel K4 not working (should have fixed it under warranty but it is used as the second engine in a double headed setup), and a noisy fan on one of my Vision Line Centipedes that really annoys me, but Lionel refused to fix it.  Someday I'll disconnect it (yes I've tried everything posted on the forum to fix it).

Anyway, I wanted to post this to show not everybody has had issues with "all" their command control engines.

Personally, I've had engines set aside which haven't been run in months, then suddenly when put back on layout not run. 2 PS2 5 volts that ran perfectly before storing, then not run when back on layout. Had both changed over to 3 volts systems. But the future for easy conversion by many with ERR will probable end at some time with components no longer available. Then what? What about replacement parts for broken, or lost parts? Its not originally cost, but cost in electronic boards, labor, and shipping when something goes wrong out of warranty. I've seen some great engines that sold in the 500.00 range  decade ago that someone spent several hundred dollars on converting to ERR then sell them for practically what an ERR conversion cost them.

I have an PS2 engine right now that failed, but reviving it with either an upgrade or ERR system isn't worth it seeing what they are going for in running condition already upgraded to 3 volt boards. So I have a 400.00 paperweight right now.

But, I still enjoy my trains and guess with technology in everything today what we have today will and maybe different and hopefully someday more consumer friendly in repairs and replacement of components.

MartyE posted:

You can't compare modern trains to their PW counterparts.  Many PW train use the same parts across the line.  They have less going on so less to break.  It's mostly all mechanical and very few have discrete parts. 

Today's trains are very part specific to get the detail that the folks want.  The parts from a scale diesel does no fit another diesel like in the PW era.

It's like comparing 2 cups and some string to a cell phone.  

Sorry but this topic comes up from time to time and the comparison is just not applicable.

Correct.

Oh, and those PW trains that (may) Run Eternally? I still don't want them, running or otherwise, any more than I would want to travel around in a '47 Studebaker. Nostalgia is not what drives me in this hobby; 3-railer or not, it's model railroading to me, which means the equipment needs to be...models. Nostalgia is not totally absent from my hobby, and I still have my 50's equipment, but it's on a shelf.  

An older gentleman once said that toy trains needed fixing back in the day, to. It's just that they were easier to fix back then, like everything else, cars, trucks, appliances, etc.. He was implying that toy trains have always been made on an assembly line by people making low-factory wages, American, or other, and that "mistakes happened" back then as well.

I cannot think of any modern items that are easy to fix...mostly due to inherent defects in electronics and obsolete boards I suppose. Yet, we want the advanced features that only digital stuff can give...and we went from a relatively simple "fix-it" world to a throwaway world in many respects.  

Currently I have both Modern and Postwar and will be running both using two ZW's but will have CB installed that GRJ recommended and TVS Diodes. On my last layout I used fast blow 10 Amp fuses and never had any issues with any postwar or modern no new Lionel all MTH and PS1 and both 3 and 5 volt PS2 and a couple of PS3 locomotives. Now before I run any modern locomotive I will install new GRJ BCR replacements and I expect every one to run as advertised. Still collecting Postwar stuff today and some newer stuff also. I will run everything.

A topic heavily discussed on this forum over the years and as of yet has failed to arrive at a resolution-and never will.  In any event I would just like to say that I operate both pre and post war engines as well as a good deal of command control equipment and at different times enjoy them both.  What I don't enjoy is the unfettered arrogance of some individuals who find it necessary to disparage and belittle pre and post war advocates because they  are unwilling to wrestle with the complexities of modern day electronics.  Give it a rest of folks; if a group wants to embrace simplicity of operation its their choice and they should not be criticized for having no desire to rise to the so called demands of modern technology. 

OKHIKER posted:

A topic heavily discussed on this forum over the years and as of yet has failed to arrive at a resolution-and never will.  In any event I would just like to say that I operate both pre and post war engines as well as a good deal of command control equipment and at different times enjoy them both.  What I don't enjoy is the unfettered arrogance of some individuals who find it necessary to disparage and belittle pre and post war advocates because they  are unwilling to wrestle with the complexities of modern day electronics.  Give it a rest of folks; if a group wants to embrace simplicity of operation its their choice and they should not be criticized for having no desire to rise to the so called demands of modern technology. 

It’s a two way street....not one sided the way you see it.....and most of the time it’s the pre war/ post war guys instigating with a thread JUST LIKE THIS ONE....We don’t go looking for y’all....some of y’all step on your own land mines then cry foul........gotta call it like I see it.....Pat