I had a k-line engine that stopped running I was told could not fix because board not made any more I had them take it and hard wire it I have no reverse but that is ok it runs great
kevin
harmonyards posted:OKHIKER posted:A topic heavily discussed on this forum over the years and as of yet has failed to arrive at a resolution-and never will. In any event I would just like to say that I operate both pre and post war engines as well as a good deal of command control equipment and at different times enjoy them both. What I don't enjoy is the unfettered arrogance of some individuals who find it necessary to disparage and belittle pre and post war advocates because they are unwilling to wrestle with the complexities of modern day electronics. Give it a rest of folks; if a group wants to embrace simplicity of operation its their choice and they should not be criticized for having no desire to rise to the so called demands of modern technology.
It’s a two way street....not one sided the way you see it.....and most of the time it’s the pre war/ post war guys instigating with a thread JUST LIKE THIS ONE....We don’t go looking for y’all....some of y’all step on your own land mines then cry foul........gotta call it like I see it.....Pat
This.
These threads are always started by guys who only like pre and postwar trains and bash on the new stuff. Those of us who like command control don't start threads bashing on older stuff. We're having too much fun running command control trains to have the time to 
.
Then this thread should probably be closed. It's gotten a bit tense
Jon1443 posted:Then this thread should probably be closed. It's gotten a bit tense
Good idea.
Aren't there simple electronic reversing units available for modern trains if you don't want all the gizmos? My experience with the motors and mechanisms of the modern stuff is as good or better. If you trashed all the modern electronics, the train should still function on a basic level as well as any Postwar item.
As noted by previous posters, the real question is whether someone wants to run trains without features or details.
Go ahead and run your trains. If you break the details off of modern trains, who cares? If you broke half the details off a modern train then you would probably still be ahead of Postwar trains detail level, which is the level you'd already accept.
Lou1985 posted:harmonyards posted:OKHIKER posted:Give it a rest of folks; if a group wants to embrace simplicity of operation its their choice and they should not be criticized for having no desire to rise to the so called demands of modern technology.
It’s a two way street....not one sided the way you see it.....and most of the time it’s the pre war/ post war guys instigating with a thread JUST LIKE THIS ONE....We don’t go looking for y’all....some of y’all step on your own land mines then cry foul........gotta call it like I see it.....Pat
This.
These threads are always started by guys who only like pre and postwar trains and bash on the new stuff. Those of us who like command control don't start threads bashing on older stuff. We're having too much fun running command control trains to have the time to
Did a quick search and guess what? You are right. Back to the trains.
christopher N&W posted:Aren't there simple electronic reversing units available for modern trains if you don't want all the gizmos? My experience with the motors and mechanisms of the modern stuff is as good or better. If you trashed all the modern electronics, the train should still function on a basic level as well as any Postwar item.
As noted by previous posters, the real question is whether someone wants to run trains without features or details.
Go ahead and run your trains. If you break the details off of modern trains, who cares? If you broke half the details off a modern train then you would probably still be ahead of Postwar trains detail level, which is the level you'd already accept.
Absolute rock bottom cheap repair ( or temporary fix) .....a .59 cent bridge rectifier will make a modern engine at least run forward ( or backwards if that’s your thing) but there’s more than one option on the table for the age old debate of “ no boards available so it’s trashed” mentality ......as I & others have mentioned before, hopefully even more options will be available on the aftermarket at some point.....Pat
harmonyards posted:OKHIKER posted:What I don't enjoy is the unfettered arrogance of some individuals who find it necessary to disparage and belittle pre and post war advocates because they are unwilling to wrestle with the complexities of modern day electronics.
It’s a two way street....not one sided the way you see it.....and most of the time it’s the pre war/ post war guys instigating with a thread JUST LIKE THIS ONE....We don’t go looking for y’all....some of y’all step on your own land mines then cry foul........gotta call it like I see it.....Pat
Harmonyards, true.
christopher N&W posted:harmonyards posted:OKHIKER posted:What I don't enjoy is the unfettered arrogance of some individuals who find it necessary to disparage and belittle pre and post war advocates because they are unwilling to wrestle with the complexities of modern day electronics.
It’s a two way street....not one sided the way you see it.....and most of the time it’s the pre war/ post war guys instigating with a thread JUST LIKE THIS ONE....We don’t go looking for y’all....some of y’all step on your own land mines then cry foul........gotta call it like I see it.....Pat
Harmonyards, true.
As I stated in my original post I operate both pre/post war trains and modern era motive power as well and enjoy both of them at different times. Both have redeeming features and I don't consider myself as an overwhelming adherent to either era. Nevertheless, I do have a slight preference for older engines. That being said, I did and do object to certain characterizations of those who prefer the older generation trains. It has been my observation that when this topic does arise those who like the pre/post war are very critical of modern day products but for the most part they criticize the product and not the people using it. However, in the case of the modern "technocrats" they not only criticize the older products but the people that use them as well. That in my opinion is rude and counter-productive to any evenhanded discussion. Just calling them like I see them.
OKHIKER posted:christopher N&W posted:harmonyards posted:OKHIKER posted:What I don't enjoy is the unfettered arrogance of some individuals who find it necessary to disparage and belittle pre and post war advocates because they are unwilling to wrestle with the complexities of modern day electronics.
It’s a two way street....not one sided the way you see it.....and most of the time it’s the pre war/ post war guys instigating with a thread JUST LIKE THIS ONE....We don’t go looking for y’all....some of y’all step on your own land mines then cry foul........gotta call it like I see it.....Pat
Harmonyards, true.
As I stated in my original post I operate both pre/post war trains and modern era motive power as well and enjoy both of them at different times. Both have redeeming features and I don't consider myself as an overwhelming adherent to either era. Nevertheless, I do have a slight preference for older engines. That being said, I did and do object to certain characterizations of those who prefer the older generation trains. It has been my observation that when this topic does arise those who like the pre/post war are very critical of modern day products but for the most part they criticize the product and not the people using it. However, in the case of the modern "technocrats" they not only criticize the older products but the people that use them as well. That in my opinion is rude and counter-productive to any evenhanded discussion. Just calling them like I see them.
Show me a thread where one of us “technocrats” has posted a thread where they state pre & postwar trains are “junk” or “just a paperweight” .......none......we don’t have to characterize them, they do an outstanding job of that all on their own.....if a post or a reply is “look how good my 226 runs” nobodies gonna challenge that, nobodies gonna characterize that.....BUT, add in the nonsense that it’s superior over something modern, for whatever reason, opinion or not, ...well, guess what....they’re gonna get characterized....they brought it on themselves with a thread, or a reply on a thread trying to compare a model T against a new Lexus......again, when the two sides clash, there’s no good to come out of it...some of the replies against the modern stuff is so far fetched, and so off course it’s absolutely mind boggling where they come up with this stuff......they dig their own holes...sorry if you don’t like us helping fill them in..........Pat
harmonyards posted:OKHIKER posted:christopher N&W posted:harmonyards posted:OKHIKER posted:What I don't enjoy is the unfettered arrogance of some individuals who find it necessary to disparage and belittle pre and post war advocates because they are unwilling to wrestle with the complexities of modern day electronics.
It’s a two way street....not one sided the way you see it.....and most of the time it’s the pre war/ post war guys instigating with a thread JUST LIKE THIS ONE....We don’t go looking for y’all....some of y’all step on your own land mines then cry foul........gotta call it like I see it.....Pat
Harmonyards, true.
As I stated in my original post I operate both pre/post war trains and modern era motive power as well and enjoy both of them at different times. Both have redeeming features and I don't consider myself as an overwhelming adherent to either era. Nevertheless, I do have a slight preference for older engines. That being said, I did and do object to certain characterizations of those who prefer the older generation trains. It has been my observation that when this topic does arise those who like the pre/post war are very critical of modern day products but for the most part they criticize the product and not the people using it. However, in the case of the modern "technocrats" they not only criticize the older products but the people that use them as well. That in my opinion is rude and counter-productive to any evenhanded discussion. Just calling them like I see them.
Show me a thread where one of us “technocrats” has posted a thread where they state pre & postwar trains are “junk” or “just a paperweight” .......none......we don’t have to characterize them, they do an outstanding job of that all on their own.....if a post or a reply is “look how good my 226 runs” nobodies gonna challenge that, nobodies gonna characterize that.....BUT, add in the nonsense that it’s superior over something modern, for whatever reason, opinion or not, ...well, guess what....they’re gonna get characterized....they brought it on themselves with a thread, or a reply on a thread trying to compare a model T against a new Lexus......again, when the two sides clash, there’s no good to come out of it...some of the replies against the modern stuff is so far fetched, and so off course it’s asbsolutely mind boggling where they come up with this stuff......they dig their own holes...sorry if you don’t like us helping fill them in..........Pat
As I stated they criticize the products not the people. Modern era supporters seem to have a need to denigrate the people in addition to the product. That in my opinion is unnecessary. If a person does not like another criticizing a product they support simply state it. There is absolutely no need to belittle them because they choose not to pursue modern train technology.
Whoa, GSBOB! Take a deep breath and count to 10. The subject of Postwar versus modern trains always causes a bit of an uproar. I happen to side with you and think the current crop of motive power products have too many gimmicks in them at the expense of a truly robust, long-lasting design. But that's just me...
There are a lot of good people here. Don't let one "rough" experience get to you. It happens...it's the internet. So don't leave, OK?
I love them all because, IMO, pre and post war and modern each have their own advantages and charms.
Pre-war (of which I have very little) are colorful and toy-like, which can be wonderful for those that like that.
Post-war are mechanically superior, many are made of some of the best materials, and the ozone and puffs of smoke are irresistible to many of us. Magnetraction was a big breakthrough IMO. They were the 1st childhood trains for many of us who cannot be without them. As we all know, they are durable, reliable and fixable.
Modern have marvelous features: great sounds, smoke, electro-couplers, etc., that enhance their play value. Many are beautiful models with amazing detail. Some are tremendous pullers with heft and traction tires.
The above are just a few of the advantages of the toy and model trains in each era. Arnold
Rich Melvin posted:Whoa, GSBOB! Take a deep breath and count to 10. The subject of Postwar versus modern trains always causes a bit of an uproar. I happen to side with you and think the current crop of motive power products have too many gimmicks in them at the expense of a truly robust, long-lasting design. But that's just me...
There are a lot of good people here. Don't let one "rough" experience get to you. It happens...it's the internet. So don't leave, OK?
Enjoy what you have and have fun. If any type of period engine has a problem this is the forum to ask for help. I wish I could get some new type engines as my only so called modern is a PS-2 Railking engine. I looked and asked questions about the engine as I bought it used (could not afford it new) by posting questions and I got answers and a education on the PS-2 engines. I bought a battery eliminator and installed it, I also had problems with a Z1000 power supply as it would always produced a voltage when the power was turned down. I posted the question on how to fix and got my answer.
This forum is great and there are a lot of great people here. Enjoy the forum look at the questions/answers and learn.
Doc Davis posted:I think that Marx made the most reliable trains. They almost always run.
No, I would say Brio did/does!
harmonyards posted:artfull dodger posted:The issue with modern day Mint in the box trains is the electrioncs have a finite life span. Those electronic boards will NOT last as long as the train will. We are also seeing a rise in zinc pest in trains made overseas. Something that was pretty much eliminated in most USA made toy trains before WWII. The only worry with postwar Lionel trains, if mint in the box, is the battery for the horn in electrics and diesels. Factory installed, we have all seen the damage a leaking battery can cause to an otherwise perfect train and its box. I enjoy mint trains as much as the next guy, but that battery better be removed or the model be able to be seen outside of the box before I part with my $$. The challenge for the future will be replacement circuit boards for the current era of toy trains that will have dead boards in a few years and need replacements to function as designed. AD
No modern locomotives with PCB’s have a “best if used by” date....so the statement the boards have an expiration date is false.
old toy trains are not immune to issues with zinc rot.....I’ve seen a plethora of prewar stuff crumble into pieces....even the fabled 700E’s and 763’s can suffer from it....so that’s another false....
agree with you, the challenge for the future will be more aftermarket vendors stepping to the plate and offering repair/replacement parts for the modern stuff.......Pat
Some cap.s do have a shelf life... but I've listened to vintage radios with caps that are over 100yrs old too 
(this is aside from the crap caps of later 1900s)
I think you need to look at it a bit more simply, Ochams Razor... The complex electronics are more likely to fail than the simpler electrictromechanical aspect of PW because there is more involved; the same work is still done, the control becomes more complex. I'd argue a manual switch is more reliable than a relay relay too. A knife switch more reliable than a toggle, etc.
Other than that it's a matter of taste...or lack of it.
"Some folk" sound like the "superior" highrail folk of fifty+ years ago talking down on tinplate as junk....all while being snubbed by the scale crowd for the highrail look.
Sad... Can you say bully?
..... just non-inclusive; "watch me- watch me"; parked Fort beats that parked Cheby..... craptalk then, craptalk now.
Modern electronics are cool in some ways, but I trust electromechanical far more. (besides; I fed myself with circuit work..... so it's hard to make "complex work" fun, I want easy and most reliable at home
....finish line first isn't for everyone..it's the flipping of the odometer 3 times that some prefer 
Cur Ra Hee, literally.
Lionel you want died in 1969 really. They've been grooming a Zombie ever since; but the "spirit" keeps rearing it's head. The newer way makes them WAY more money. Ever price many thousand of modern electronics?
Actually, it’s uncommon to find any company that produces as rugged/long lasting item as they used to...."throw away society"; remember? Since the late 80s as "new" things died, I've been reviving use of many long stored high quality 30s-70s family appliances, blender(s), toaster, fan(s), drill, saber saw, circle saw, Dremel, band saw, sewing machine, TV cart (remember those), ....and tossed most of my teflon for cast skillet/ dutch oven as it works better when you've learned how to use them.... why would trains be different. For crying out loud, I can't even find any single wireless provider to guarantee me a "home" signal 50% of the time without buying a month of service. You must pay and pray, no refund; even an hour later... I used to get a great signal with all, but not anymore. New devices don't help.. no refund there either. And my point is corporations today aren't as willing to be responsible, quality design oriented, helpful, cooperative, etc. with the customer as they have been in past decades; it's more about the profit squeeze than ever; regardless of sales numbers.
GSBOB posted:I am the original poster I have about ten postwar engines and close to a hundred modern command control engines. When I first started buying modern engines I bought them with the highest confidence they we would be trouble free for the most part.
I don't have a permanent layout right now so I set up floor layouts every so often. This will happen every so often hopefully God willing over the next thirty years.
I'm just saying that I lost my confidence that my modern engines won't withstand being stored for a couple years every so often. I not putting them down I just know that when I put a running postwar engine away it will run when I take it out again.
A lot of you accuse this as a trouble making post but it wasn't meant to be. It was just a post on my own opinion. I don't mind other people's opinions as long as they're civil.
I joined this forum to have reasonable discussions about trains but I guess your not allowed to have your own opinion here.
Im closing my account it's too unfriendly here. Enjoy your trains and good luck.
Like Rich says,Please don't close your account! You'll miss the forum! I "had" over 400 modern (post 1990) locomotives from ALL the usual suspects. I would be happy to discuss my experiences and "trade offs". Contact me through my email if you like.
Ricky
There is no such thing as a bad train I even sit with my grandkids when they set the Brio stuff up
Wow I guess I'm reading a different thread. This one is relatively tame compared to some discussions.
Stick around. Difference of opinions is what makes us interesting.
As others have said, the newer stuff usually can be repaired but you may lose some of the electronic features if original parts cannot be found. Even with loss of some features they will be as advanced as most postwar engines. I enjoy the challenge of repair more than running trains although I am deficient in circuit board technology but have postwar down well. I have a couple of circuit board engines now to attempt to repair. I just want forward ,neutral, and reverse so I am confident I can get a basic reverse board to work. It’s all fun so do not take any of this stuff too serious. My work is serious not my hobby’s.
dogdoc
All of the motors used old or new have two wires! Right? So how about having a rail car (box or baggage) that has a new fangled board in it. From the board it has two wires! Now I can take an 'old' non-newfangled engine and PLUG it into the transfer car. Now I can run the old thingie with a new control. Best of both worlds, don't need to find the 'right' board, don't need any major surgery in the derelict loco, just two wires. Is this thinking to simple or am I facing in the wrong direction? I have a very mixed fleet of 'antique / old' stuff and feature rich stuff. I think such a car would make keeping my fleet running a little easier and certainly less costly. As always, my 2 cents, spend wisely! Russ
MartyE posted:Wow I guess I'm reading a different thread. This one is relatively tame compared to some discussions.
Stick around. Difference of opinions is what makes us interesting.
I was thinking the same exact thing Marty....I kinda thought this was the most civil we’ve been about this subject.....usually it’s clubs, and axes, and pitchforks.....I’m glad I’m not the only one who’s thought this......Pat
oh, Good Heavens, just go run some trains, guys and have a little fun!!
I'm with RUFUS here: old or new, we all find something to enjoy (and frown upon) about the hobby from time to time... but what binds us all together is our love of trains. I've got a little bit of everything in my collection, and while I currently enjoy both the pre- and post-war trains more than the newer, scale-like pieces with all the effects beyond the traditional bells and whistles, that doesn't mean I don't find them just as enjoyable. Let's have some fun with our trains... that's why we came into the hobby in the first place, right?
Rich Melvin posted:Whoa, GSBOB! Take a deep breath and count to 10. The subject of Postwar versus modern trains always causes a bit of an uproar. I happen to side with you and think the current crop of motive power products have too many gimmicks in them at the expense of a truly robust, long-lasting design. But that's just me...
There are a lot of good people here. Don't let one "rough" experience get to you. It happens...it's the internet. So don't leave, OK?
Exactly. It's the internet, with people from all over the world and all different backgrounds. You come asking for opinions, and opinions get stated. Everyone on here has been pretty tame.
GSBOB posted:I am the original poster I have about ten postwar engines and close to a hundred modern command control engines. When I first started buying modern engines I bought them with the highest confidence they we would be trouble free for the most part.
I don't have a permanent layout right now so I set up floor layouts every so often. This will happen every so often hopefully God willing over the next thirty years.
I'm just saying that I lost my confidence that my modern engines won't withstand being stored for a couple years every so often. I not putting them down I just know that when I put a running postwar engine away it will run when I take it out again.
A lot of you accuse this as a trouble making post but it wasn't meant to be. It was just a post on my own opinion. I don't mind other people's opinions as long as they're civil.
I joined this forum to have reasonable discussions about trains but I guess your not allowed to have your own opinion here.
Im closing my account it's too unfriendly here. Enjoy your trains and good luck.
One thing that dawned on me a while ago is that the post war trains were designed as toys, they were built relatively rugged because they fully expected kids to use these. Yes, they were expensive, but they were expensive toys. Modern command control engines are not toys, we call them toy trains, but they aren't.
The engines are doing things they could only dream of in the old days, they have speed control and sounds and controlled/synchronized smoke and so forth, they are complex, and to quote Mr. Scott on Star Trek, the more you complicate the plumbing,the easier it is to stuff up the drain. These engines are often scale, have fine detail parts of them, lighting, and of course the command control and the activators for various features, and they can be quite fragile. The real problem is if they break, unlike a post war engine, because they use circuit boards and because these are not standard for the most part (and I am not claiming expertise here), it can be really hard to repair them. You could of course make them more reliable by putting in an electronic e unit and running them conventional, at that point they were be somewhat more like postwar trains in terms of reliability, though would still be more fragile.
There is an analogy with cars, with cars before roughly 1973 you could fix them literally with a pair of pliers, a screwdriver, and if you got fancy, some wrenches, and parts were easy because a lot of the parts were commonly used among millions of cars. Modern cars, on the other hand, defy that kind of fixing, it requires diagnostic equipment and a lot of skill to repair modern cars. The one difference with cars is that the modern version is more reliable in so many ways than the old ones and are built to last, sadly something the modern engines are not. Perhaps due to the relatively limited size of this market, too, there isn't a third party parts supply as there is with postwar, the boards are specialized and the manufacturer doesn't stockpile parts, so not far after they are built, it becomes difficult to get repair parts and trying to fix a board requires skills only certain people have (whereas repairing a post war engine is limited really to only a few things, even if the e-unit was invented by Martin Martian as his immodium Q32 explosive space modulator...).
As far as leaving goes, I hope you don't, some people can get crusty at times, there are some on here that can their nose bent out of joint, or can say things they shouldn't, but usually they get told pretty fast they screwed up, and most people treat these discussions with humor. This place has kept my interest in trains going for a lot of years when I didn't have the time or place to build a layout, and now that I am, I am glad I have this place, plus it also serves as a pretty cool refuge from work on occassional breaks of 10 hour plus days
Why does it seem that it has to be one group vs another? We all love trains.
We have a group of 13-16 guys that get together once a month for lunch and afterwards a visit to one of our houses. All of our trains are the same but different.
One guy has 3 layouts: 1) Modern O and Prewar Standard gauge (a unique combination on one layout - dual gauge Gargraves track), 2) Prewar over 100 years old with various gauges of steelstrip track and 3) a Postwar Lionel O gauge layout.
Another has a beautiful HO layout and scratch builds the most amazing trains and buildings
Another has a modular HO layout and a OO layout. He also has the finest collection of Prewar US and European trains of every gauge that I've ever seen
Another has a late prewar and early postwar T-rail layout
Another has a professionally built layout running modern O (MTH & Lionel) and a huge postwar Lionel, Marx, Plasticville and Colber collection
Another is building a O gauge layout and runs postwar, prewar and modern Lionel and MTH. He also has a G gauge garden layout
As you probably know by now, I run Prewar Standard Gauge, American Flyer S gauge and (on Warrenville) mostly Postwar Lionel.
We all play nice and I never fail to learn something or pick up tips on these visits
