Train cost back in the day

This subject comes up fairly often and usually leads to circular discussions leading nowhere and eventual deletion. 

Please refer to the following. it's not about trains, but the message is the same:

Rusty

I don't have exact dates but up to and including the 50s Lionel dealers had to sell at the catalog price. So if you bought from the big guy or the local hardware store the price was the same. Somewhere near the 60s the government stepped in and said Lionel had to let the dealers decide on what price to sell at.

Yes it was still pretty expensive back in the day.

--Greg

quote:

I don't have exact dates but up to and including the 50s Lionel dealers had to sell at the catalog price. So if you bought from the big guy or the local hardware store the price was the same.

Lionel got around that by doing "department store specials" for those big guys.

That's exactly where my set came from. The standard 2018 2-6-4 locomotive had a whistling tender; the department store specials either came without a whistle, without smoke, with car substitutions, etc. Mine was minus the whistle.

Yes, the higher-end models were expensive way back in the late 40s and early 50s.  There always have been more affordable trains available, but a 2343 F3 Santa Fe streamliner set or a 2321 Lackawanna TrainMaster freight set set the average guy back a whole lot of $, relatively speaking.

The difference between then and now is that youngsters and their parents didn't gripe about the prices then.  If you could afford it, you may have bought it.  If you couldn't afford it, you bought something else and dreamed about, or worked hard for, the day when you might buy that top-of-the-line item.  Consumer attitudes were very different back then.

Rick, I collect Tonka trucks and farm toys from the '50s and '60s as well as trains. I find it a lot easier to find PW Lionel trains with boxes then I do Tonkas. The fact that Lionel trains were always "expensive", and perhaps seasonal, make them cost relatively less now than a boxed Tonka truck that was meant for the sandbox and only cost $6.95 when new.
Toys that were expensive back then will usually still command top dollar now if they are in excellent condition. Ironically though some cheap items back then, like Tonkas and tractors, are quite valuable today because most kids played with them and didn't store them in their boxes. Imagine that!
IMHO, the original high price of Lionel trains makes them easier to find today!

TJ

Here is a website that will calculate what a dollars worth.

Then and now!

http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm

Just fun comparing prices and how much people struggled trying to come up with money what seems to be nothing in today's economy!

I have a 1949 2026 5 car freight set that came with track and 1033 transformer.  On the original box is printed "$29.95".

One must always remember that Lionel products NEVER were "cheap". In most cases a lower end set would cost approximently one weeks wages.

I AGREE!  Parents and I could not afford items in the late PW/early MPC ers.  Same today.  But I do get low cost PW cars at shows, and W/WBB products!

Just remember back then they were "real" Lionel trains made in America with pride, reliability and durability. Today, they are the made in China version, cost more, less reliable.

Its kind of like...is a Volvo still a Volvo now that they are owned and made by Greely Corp a Chinese Company? Would Mustangs and Dodge Challengers still have the same aura if they were made in China?

I think not.

Gentlemen,

   No doubt about it Lionel Trains were always an investment, I own one of the 1st 263E Work Trains Lionel ever produced and my Grandfather purchased it for my fathers 1st birthday, it was a costly item even then, with track, switches, transformer, and control box, I was told that it was more than a months pay at the time, in 1959 my father bought me a New Lionel 0-27 Northern Pacific work train with track, switches, and transformer, it cost was 59.99 at Sols in Braddock, Pa, big money for my parents at that time, all made in the USA, it still runs perfect today, in fact that would equal 468.52 in todays money for a train made in China, that will never last as long as the original

American made Lionel.   That 1959 Lionel original engine is pulling my Masonic Train on our 2012 Christmas layout and pulling the 1960 Northern Pacific Passenger Cars on the 2011 Layout pictured below.

PCRR/Dave

Christmas 2011

 Christmas 2012

After having a Marx set of trains for a few years, my parents finally bought me a Lionel set for Christmas in 1950. Expecting to get a 2046 or 681 steamer set, I received a 773 Hudson with an assortment of freight cars which included a few operating cars and a 250 watt ZW transformer. I do know that the 773 cost $50 and my dad somehow bought the ZW for $10. Back in those days I do not think their combined income was much more than $100 a week. Talk about expensive Christmas gifts.

Our culture's values have changed.

Spending a weeks wages for a Lionel Train 60 years ago was something that was looked upon as a solid choice and an excellant value. Seeing the trains set up was something that the family looked forward to every Christmas (I know we did). Today, some families still share that excitement, unfortunately, we also have a lot of other things that distract us...ipads, iPhones, computers, tablets, video games, internet, facebook, well you get the idea.

With what we spend on internet charges, cable charges, cell phones, monthly charges, we could all have huge collections, large layouts with all the latest accessories.

Fortunately, trains always hold a fascination with people. 

I read somewhere, perhaps around 2007, that interest in O gauge trains were at their highest peak of all time. Considering the popularity of trains back in the 50's, that's quite an accomplishment. Just look at all the manufacturers we have today, Lionel, MTH, Weaver, Atlas, Williams (Bachman), RMT, the list goes on. We are living in great times for the hobby. Overseas manufacturing has made it affordable.

Enjoy!

The Houston Tinplate layout was open today.  And we had many children today.  I wonder how many of them actually saw a REAL TOY for the firat ime?  (REAL TOY:  trains, Lincoln Logs, TinkerToys, Hot Wheels, doll house, Barbie.......)

quote:

The standard 2018 2-6-4 locomotive had a whistling tender

Both of my 2018's came with 1130 non-whistling tenders. The locomotive was cataloged both ways. I know with certainty that one came from a set that is shown in the 1957 catalog (1597S).  I have most of the set. A fellow was selling it piecemeal at a local show, and I missed out on a couple of the cars.

While verifying the 2018 set number,  I noticed that the 2037 was also in at least one set without a whistling tender.

In 1954, at the age of 12, I really wanted some streamlined passenger cars...but no way could I afford the $9.95-$10.95 each. BTW, in '54 the minimum wage was 75 cents/hr.

From 1960's experience, in 1966 the Lionel 2322 Virginian FM was cataloged at $65.

Madison Hardware and Gimbels in NY City were selling them for $42.50

The complete Virginian FM set 12850 was in the catalog at $135 but my parents purchased mine for $90 at Gimbels. It took them almost a year to pay it off so it was considered expensive. I remember buying the 15" aluminum presidential cars, the catalog was $16 but stores were selling them at $13. In 1965 Madison Hardware was selling the 773 hudson for $65 while the catalog price was $90. By 1970 the 773 Hudson at Madison was about $189. That was expensive at the time for sure.

Lionel's 700E cost as much as a refrigerator in 1937 and the repop also does today!

The only price I know about is my 1957 ATSF passenger set that cost $19.95 at a furniture store in Endicott, NY.  It has 3 of the Marx scale 8-wheel metal series cars and the large plastic E7 AA locos.  The set included a 50-watt transformer, oval of 034 track, uncoupler, lockon, wire, "Uncouple Here" sign and plastic station platform, newsstand, figures, and telephone poles.  

My father's set, 1423w, 1655 with whistle tender, 1041 transformer, sunoco tank car, PRR gondola and SP type unlighted caboose with a circle of O27 track was a weeks wages for my grandfather.  He worked at Fridgidare, then a part of GM, so he made decent above average wages for that time.  Back then parents taught thier children better values, toys were put carefully back in thier boxes when done, not left outdoors, kicked around or thrown away when they stopped working, but then you could actualy fix them back then.  As my father tells me, for boys in the years following the war, Lionel or AF trains were the tip top of thier Christmas and birthday wish lists, right up there with that infamous Red Ryder BB gun!  Now days its the newest video games, Ipads ect.  Life was so much simpler back then, most wives didnt work, dad could make a wage that paid the bills with some left over.  Thats not as possible today.  Even in the 70's and into the early 80's. I wasnt allowed to take dad's Lionel set home till grandpa thought I was responsible enough to take proper care of it.  And it shows as the pictures in my other thread of it running around the tree.  Lionel was expensive then, as it is now, its our values as a society that have changed to a cheaper/throw away society.  Were quick satisfaction is seen as high importance and not long term value and durablity.

Overseas manufacture might have made things a bit more affordable in the short run, but in the long run, the quality between the Lionel Corperation trains of the late 40's and up to the mid 50's cost cutting moves and what we buy today is far less for todays trains IMHO.  The trains of my father's childhood are much more dependable that anything I get in the shop to repair that is made in recent times.  One cannot repair circuit boards 99% of the time.  And the MSRP and even street prices of the better Lionel sets are pretty much inline with inflation of what the sets cost back then.  But at a much lower quality control level.  Then you add in the loss of good customer service of the LHS from years ago.  Society has changed, for better or worse it is what it is.  I am thankfull we still have those trains from the postwar era out there for sale, to be enjoyed and operated for many many years to come.   BTW, I got out dad's 1948 catalog and his set cost $29.95 in that year. That was a lot of money back then, just as $300-500 for a decent train set today is a lot of money for a toy.  But today, kids want Ipads and lap tops or the latest video game, very few want electric trains, and very few parents will spend that kind of $$ on a train today.   Computers are good as well, thats where the future lies for the children of today, but the electric train set also teaches lots of needed skills, basic electricity, assembly and maintaining something mechanical.   I really feel Lionel needs to bring production back to the states, Made in the USA used to be a huge draw to purchase a Lionel over MTH or the other overseas brands.  I know Lionel has started to do more USA based production, but we need to see all of it back here, along with a return to the quality levels that JLC set in the 40's     Mike

I use this for calculating that kind of stuff (the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator, which is only for "getting an idea" about price changes):

http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

So, a 2340 in 1955 was 49.95.  According to this calculator, that's $429.09 in 2012.

All of this is very interesting, especially the perceptions by some as to value and durability.

I think if one uses a true measure of what is "equal", then one could presume that the rolling stock today, especially the RailKing products or perhaps the Atlas Trainman or older Industrial Rail items, are every bit the equal (or better) in terms of durability and whether they'll be around 50 years from now.  To be honest, the 1970's ear MPC cars certainly have held up well for the past 30+ years and by monetary calculation, are probably still the best value in the hobby (as compared to the postwar Lionel topic).

As for engines...The postwar quality and durability is the stuff of legend, but to be honest, it is also a very simple design, with limited (by today's standards) features.  As happy as we may be to herald the quality and durability of the 50's engines, we all know of (and perhaps ignore) the trouble of the battery left in the horn compartment.  But to be fair, the Williams engines of today, with their simple horn-only configuration, are every bit the functional, long-lasting toy train, as their postwar inspirations.  And they come with a lifetime warranty.  I haven't done the calculated math, but I'd guess that today's Williams engine is probably the better value.

Many dismiss the advanced pcb-based trains of today as being destined to fail and not last, but thus far at least, I have several engines that are pushing 20 years of age and every bit as good as the day I bought them.  For the sound and details and features, perhaps getting 30 years out them with these features, is a fair trade off for simple featured and 50 years? 

To each, their own, I suppose.

Some folks asked about how much a set cost in the 50s. Lionel's price structure seemed to put 0-27 sets in a range of $19.95 to $69.95 while O gauge sets were usually in a range of $39.95 to $89.95. In both of these classes, the lower cost sets would usually include one of the smaller simpler locos and 3-4 non-operating cars. As the set prices increased in the range, usually a car was added , the locomotive might be a larger locomotive or operating cars might be added. A work train was usually in the middle of the range and passenger sets generally were towards the top of the price range, usually with the finest locomotives Lionel offered. An o-27 set would always include a transformer , track and an uncoupling track , lockon, billboard set, lube and  an instruction book. O gauge sets left out the transformer,

In the 1960s, Lionel offered its 773 Hudson in a seven car freight which did include a ZW and a pair of 0-22 switches. It was priced at a level far in excess of the $89.95 maximum target that Marketing customarily set. I was a harkening to days long past when in the Standard gauge era, the more expensive better sets might include the extra track, switches and transformers plus in some cases tunnels and buildings.

In the prewar era,it was quite common to be able to buy a set with the engine having the whistle feature as an option. The transformer furnished would or would not have the circuitry built in to operate the whistle depending if the set was purchased with the whistle option. Lionel also had seperate whistle and direction buttons you could buy, if an engine with a whistle was added to an outfit that did not come with a whistle equipped engine originally. The add on direction button served a similar purpose where the original se did not include a locomotive with a reverse unit. 

My father kept a detail record of the post war SuperO layout I had which he purchased around 1969.  A 773 Hudson was purchased for 65 dollars while a 736 was 40 something if I recall correctly.

quote:

To be honest, the 1970's ear MPC cars certainly have held up well for the past 30+ years and by monetary calculation, are probably still the best value in the hobby (as compared to the postwar Lionel topic).

I agree, and would extend the thought to most MPC product. Much of it can be had for bargain prices.

That written, on occasion I have seen MPC rolling stock where the pointy tips of the axles actually wore small holes into the truck's sideframes.

In 1954, I longed for the Santa Fe switcher (620-something) in the Sears toy catalog. It's price was $25.00...way more than I had saved from my allowance. Never acquired that switch engine to this day. 

Neil

I was digging around looking for some old mags and found a 1951 Lionel Catalouge and a 1952 as well.  Just thought I might post some of the sets and their prices.

1951 1119 Lionel Scout $17.75 3 car freight with 1110 2-4-2

1951 1477S  027 $29.25 2026 engines in both sets

1951 1463Ws 027 35.75 both 3 car sets

set 1464W, 027 diesel UP 3 car pullman, $66.50.

At this time, I would make $.50 an hour for spading gardens and pulling rye out of the wheat.

 set 1467 4 car freight  diesel UP  $57.50

2163WS 4 car freight "O" with 736 Berkshire $60.00

2175W, Santa Fe and Pensy F3's 5-car freights $70.00

I could list more sets and operating cars but this should give you and idea on fifty's prices.

At that time, I could make $.50 per hour for spading gardens and pulling rye out of the wheat fields.

If you want know more prices, you may email me, and make  sure you use Train Cost so I will know you are Forum Members.

Merry Christmas.

Al 

The original box for my PW ZW has $29.95 written across it.  I know it came from the hardware store around the block from us.  I am sure that was a chunk of money for my parents in the 50's.  Not to mention the cost of all the Lionel trains, all of which came from the same hardware store in Queens, NY

Ed