Transformers, like the ZW and Z4000? Why?

I use 180 watt bricks on my layout. I have 5 on the layout with a backup just in case. Z4000 are a PITA for what I do since I dont want to turn them every time I turn on the layout and the older ZW's are under powered for me. The new ZW's are painfully expensive. I have 2 Z4000 for repair work, one in my test track and one on my work bench as I need the amp and volt meters for testing

For one the newest ZW I understand has command in it. so you don't have to buy it. But on the other hand ( the post war ones) even with the higher shipping ( as long as you find someone that will do close to actual shipping) a lot of time a ZW is cheaper than the bricks. even after adding your own quick release breakers also. 

Now could Lionel sell those bricks still? Probably yes and probably could sell a lot as there are folks like you who just want the power. 

The extra wattage in these are designed for you to safely run more that one train at a time and possible some accesories. 

The capability has very good useage in a command setting. For one I like to limit my output sometimes because some of my cars are designed for 14v bulbs and TMCC will run on 14 volts I have it run fine on as low as 10 although I would not recommend it. I would do 14 minimum. And to change all the bulbs 1) would be a pain and 2) cost I don't need when I have perfectly good bulbs at present. 

 But, if you don't run conventionally, why have such transformers that seem so conventional running oriented?

We like the post war ZW not only because of the power, but  you can pick them up at a reasonable  price. I like the fact that as soon as power is applied, the  voltage immediate goes out to where the handle is set (not the case with the Z-4000)

... We leave ours at about 19 volts. Unfortunately we also have to use 10 fast blow glass fuses to protect the tiu.

We have 8 of them and they're still doing the job for the last 10 years or so.

Yes the 180 bricks are nice.

It's an interesting question you raise and I did not think of it when researching a while back what is out there in terms of power for a command layout. I came to the conclusion that MTH and Lionel probably deliberately have left a significant gap between their small and large transformers. The small ones have some issues with more advanced command control models/systems (or so I found) and are not suited to the sort of temporary wiring I have to set up. The big ones are pricey. I understand the appeal of the Lionel bricks but just try to find any.

In the end I saw the ZW-L as my option for replacing an old MTH Z4000. I will say that there must be something in the point about the different sine wave output between them because my Legacy and 3rd Rail models showed much better smoke output with the ZW-L and it had no adverse effect on PS2/3 engines. This thing better last some years because the cost was/is no small matter.

rtraincollector posted:

For one the newest ZW I understand has command in it. so you don't have to buy it.

To be clear the new ZW-Ls and even the ZW-Cs have the ability to be controlled via command but still will require a TMCC Base/Cab1 , Base 1L/Cab1L, or Legacy System to enjoy the benefits of command operations.

I also like the post war ZW, you can get one very inexpensive and doesn't cost that much to update. 

The newer transformers cost any where from $400.00 (Z-4000), to $800.00(ZW-L) a piece and I can't see paying that much for a transformer. Plus I keep reading about all the failures of the new transformers on 2 different model train forums so I am staying away from them for now. Then you have to pay for command control which can be from $300.00 up to $400.00 for each unit(TMCC, Legacy or DCS), then there are the switch control boxes at $100.00 or more a piece. So command control gets super expensive very fast! 

I paid only $35.00 for a like new MTH Z-1000 at a train show. 

Lee Fritz

I like the old school transformers to power my accessories, lights, etc......and keep the bricks for exclusive mainline train running.

Plus, once or twice a year, I run some postwar or MPC/Items.  It's been my experience that once people hear you have an operating layout, they have some "old" trains that they'd like to see run.  The look on their faces is always well worth it, IMHO.

For command only - the bricks are hard to beat. Obviously the current short supply creates an issue there.

For me, running Legacy and Conventional, the ZW-L fits as it has 4 built in powermasters to allow remote control of conventional loops.

All that needs to be added is the Legacy base/remote set.

I use the Lionel PH-180 bricks. I also have both DCS and Legacy. I have no conventional trains, but if I ever want to run one it's easily done using one of the TIU's variable channels, nothing extra to purchase. The PH-180s also have very fast breakers, arguably some of the best available. 

The Z4000s and ZWLs have extra features that some folks need. I will defer to MartyE, but I believe the ZW-L also has built in Legacy Powermasters and some other very nice features. So it is like getting roughly 4 PH-180s and 4 Legacy Powermasters and more. The Z4000 also has accessory power terminals at a couple of different voltages among other things. So with either one you are getting more than just a transformer. I don't have either of these, others here can do a much better job of explaining all of their extra features.

I retired my ZW-c several years back with the TPC's. I currently use the ZW-c with 4 bricks(180)  for nothing but lights and accessories. It allows me to have one handle for a lower voltage bus and one for a higher voltage bus.

The upper and lower smaller level are also powered by bricks (180) via the new legacy power masters (6-37146). The power masters are such a nice change from the TPC.

I do have some conventional and MTH engines . This set up I can at least run them .

But you are right , the transformer is looking like it's on it's way out in a lot of instances.

Larry

Terry D,

   I am a big advocate of the old ZW's & KW's and newer Z4K transformers, especially when you run multi level layouts, with different kinds of track and switches.  As you add switches you will need to alter the voltage out put to your track, or individual Switches if you are powering them separately, it also gives you the ability to expand at will as you continue building your new layouts, adding LC and Conventional Trains, and eventually you will expand.   Same goes for any operating Tracks, Houses, log loaders, or operating structures, ect or equipment, especially the lighting and operation of older Tin Plate Conventional Trains, Bumper Car lines and Street Car lines, all running on different levels at the same time as our Legacy and DCS P2 trains.   IMO Bricks restrict these options way to much, the only good engineering function of a 180 Brick is the fantastic quick Breaker, it possesses, definitely one of Lionel's best.  Further if you are looking for additional Bricks for some unknown reason, purchase and older ZW-C, usually one or two additional brick have been added to them when you purchase them on the used market.   I own and use 3 Z4K, 3 old ZW's and 2 old KW's that I use at different times depending on the Christmas Layout being engineered, at any given time.

PCRR/Dave

Scotty we always need more power!

Well, I'm not sure where this leaves me. My layout is small . . . an around the room in a 14.5 X 12.5 floor space. I frequently run three trains at once.  I am not a fan of fast running. Before I converted my nine older GGD heavyweights from incandescent to LED, the Z1000 could not output the power required. After converting to LEDs in those passenger cars, I can run three trains pretty well off the Z1000 but, if I chose to crank up the speed, the breaker might pop after a few minutes. I still have a couple of pass. cars with incandescents too. They are labeled as being CP but look very suspiciously like Polar Express livery to me!

I'd love a Lionel 180 watt brick! Would be about ideal for my needs. But someone has to have one to sell me first! Or I'm stuck with the Z1000. Those huge powerhouses just make no sense for me. An excess of power I could live with. But the need to turn them off/on (first setting the throttles to zero) would very quickly get old!

When I see photos of people's control centers with multiple ZWs or Z4000s, I am perplexed. They must have layouts the size of football arenas!

Terry:  You can still find the 135 Watt Bricks pretty easily. 

Are they as "good" or desirable as the 180 watt bricks?  No.

Are they still very, very good?  Yes.

I'm actually running two of them now.  Tip Top thus far.

A neighbor that was moving gave me a 1950/60s 275 watt ZW that was hardly used , but very dirty from years of storage in a garage. It puts out huge amounts of power with no effort and the circuit breaker reacts instantly to shorts. A really nice and sturdy piece of equipment. I highly recommend one of these old units. 

I know of more than one person using the 180s that drop voltage by about 2-3 volts.  The 135s do not for what it's worth.

The PH-180s are now scheduled for Aug 2017, I think that is what it was last time I looked. If you can hold out a few more months you might be able to get one. Other than that you could maybe try a 'Wanted' post here in the 'Wanted to Buy' forum.

Thanks for the information presented here. Think I'll try placing an order for a Lionel 180 watter . . . and wait. No urgency on my part. Don't think I'll be paying the $225 price for one on ebay though!

Terry,

For command control, the 180 bricks work well.  Simple pure power, fast acting breakers.  Running command engines - perfect.  In order to use a 180 brick, you need a power master to connect it to the track, or a TMCC direct lockon.

A ZW-L, can do the same thing but it has more power (640 watts) and the ability to control the voltage.  It has amp/voltage gauges.  2 levels of  circuit breaker protection (the 180 bricks only have 1 circuit breaker protection).  It has power sharing, where it can divert power from one channel to another as needed.

My layout, is a medium size layout but I have 18 switches.  I don't run my switches at 18 volts.  I use one channel from the ZW-L to power all my switches at 12 volts.  This is where the ZW-L has an advantage over a brick.  I have one ZW-L which powers my 3 train blocks (2 main lines and a yard), all my switches and ucs tracks. 

In order to do this, with bricks, I would need 4 180 bricks and at least 1 power master, so I can reduce the voltage to the switches.  I also need 3 TMCC direct lockons to connect the bricks to my three blocks.  All of this can be neatly wrapped up in one transformer, with one plug into my outlet.

So its really more than just powering a track to run a train.  The Z4000, and ZW-L give a user more flexibility to run a layout, not just power a track.  If you only need track power, then yes, a 180 brick is the cheapest, most cost effective way to go.  There is no need for a big transformer if its sole purpose is to power the track.

Terry Danks posted:

Thanks for the information presented here. Think I'll try placing an order for a Lionel 180 watter . . . and wait. No urgency on my part. Don't think I'll be paying the $225 price for one on ebay though!

I'd wait for the new 180w bricks if you could.  From what I understand the voltage drop problem was corrected.

What's this "voltage drop" issue?  The bricks drop a couple of volts with a 10A load, but so does any other standard transformer of similar rating.  Is there some other issue?

Of course they'll drop voltage.  But I know of 4 folks who had the 180w bricks that will drop 3 volts more under load vs the same setup with 135w bricks, on one layout I personally help troubleshoot it.  One of the folks talked to Lionel and they seemed to agree there was an issue that would be corrected in the newer bricks.  The folks that have used them either switched back to the 135s or went with another power source.

I scratched my head for a while over this.  He originally was complaining about lack of smoke in the block the 180 was powering.  The voltage was dropping to about 15v.  After talking to a couple of other guys one mentioned the issue.  We went to a 135 and voltage dropped to about 17v, smoke improved, running the same engine, with the same setup.

Maybe not all do this but I have heard from fore than a few folks about it.

Interesting Marty, I wonder if they've identified the issue and if it could be fixed in the old bricks?  With just my VL-BB on the tracks, smokeing away, I have just over 17 volts on the rails using the PH180.  I do lose about half a volt if I have it running through the MTH TIU variable channels.

FWIW, I had the PH135's for a spell, mine put out 20 volts with no load, one reason I was wary of them.  Combine that with the sub-standard breaker, and it was enough for me to unload them.

A Z4000 powers DCS in over 300 feet of track. Each of the Z750s powers an El line with 64 feet of track each. The Z4000 and the DC transformer power accessories. I need another Z4000 for the additional branch lines being built. The Z4000 has been flawless since I bought it in 2009.

Joe's post concerns me: "In order to use a 180 brick, you need a power master to connect it to the track, or a TMCC direct lockon."

My intent is to connect the PH180 directly to the TIU in an identical fashion as the Z1000 brick. I take it I will have to snip the connector off the 180 but that is fine.

This will work, right? I "don't need no "steenkin' power master!"

Terry Danks posted:

Joe's post concerns me: "In order to use a 180 brick, you need a power master to connect it to the track, or a TMCC direct lockon."

My intent is to connect the PH180 directly to the TIU in an identical fashion as the Z1000 brick. I take it I will have to snip the connector off the 180 but that is fine.

This will work, right? I "don't need no "steenkin' power master!"

Yes that will work.  Personally I'd probably get the connectors to make an "adaptbulator" but you can cut them off.

Terry,

Sorry, did not mean to scare you.  MartyE is correct.  I was just listing the two ways I know to connect a brick to the track.  If there is an adapter to connect the brick to the TIU i would use that instead of cutting the end off.  I would go that route in case I would ever want to sell the brick off someday.  

Joe

Terry Danks posted:

My intent is to connect the PH180 directly to the TIU in an identical fashion as the Z1000 brick. I take it I will have to snip the connector off the 180 but that is fine...

There are several ways of tapping the power from that connector, cutting it off would be a last choice. Using a male connector pigtail would be the neatest & cleanest... preserve the PM originality/value, & buy(or make your own) the male Molex connector pigtail.

Making your own would be a lot cheaper, but you can also buy a ready made adapter cable (PH-180 to TIU) from CT McCormick Hardware. It's called a PH-TIU on their website and it's under the TMCC controls as I recall. Unfortunately, last time I looked the price had gone up a few bucks. I have seen them on ebay as well, but haven't looked for them on ebay for a long time.

Thanks for the tips on connectors. I don't really even know what the connector on the PH180 looks like but getting small things like that often is a bear in my remote, Canadian location. And I just discarded a whole bunch of old computer stuff . . . including lots of Molex connectors. "DOH!!"

AS I recall the CT McCormick site has a picture of the adapter cable. It has banana plugs on one end for the TIU and the PH-180 connector on the other. I don't know what the PH-180 connector is called, but GRJ has posted the part numbers for them at least a time or two. If you want the part numbers, I probably have them and would be happy to look them up for you if you can't find them here on the forum.

Many thanks, RTR. I just spent a few minutes and this is the kind of thing I have little patience for! Half a day research, then ordering a $3 part that will cost $30 after shipping, customs and brokerage, and then hoping it fits after it gets here.

 I'll probably do the snip thing and a pair of banana plugs!

On the original question, I think mostly people power command layouts with Z4K's out of some misplace brand loyalty or assumption that because it was the (arguably) best transformer around 20 years ago it must still be the best transformer around.  It is still a fantastic choice for conventional, but having to throttle up each handle make it a poor choice for command.  I would also argue that the mutilated sine wave it outputs is undesirable for modern locomotives, though it does allow QSI and early Protosound(1) engines to work as intended.  So called chopped sine wave transformers work better with modern engines.  

As for the post war ZW, I think there is some of the same brand and product loyalty at play, but the ZW is also a robust, fairly inexpensive power source.  It's still overkill for a purely command layout, but is probably the most affordable source of power barring the PH180.  

The PH180, from all the information I have on it is the optimal choice for a command layout, however stock has been low/unobtainable for some time now.  As I understand it a good way to buy them currently is to purchase a ZW-C which comes with two PH-180's.  You can then try to resale the ZW-C controller, or use it as a powermaster if you want.  

If you have the money, the ZW-L can be a good choice if you have any desire to run any conventional engine, but it is a bit over priced if you know you'll only run command.  Minus a little total output, the ZW-L functions like 4 PH-180's and 4 Legacy Powermasters.  

As a last option, one could simply purchase individual power transformers from a supplier.  Typically these will cost right around retail price of a PH-180, and you don't get the fancy breaker, but if you need power now, it's an option.  

One last thing, a question for the folks with experience with the PH180:  How difficult would it be to unsolder/disconnect the output cord inside the brick?  I think I'd just do that if it's not a super PITA, then keep or sell the cords with the plug for people that want them.  

JGL

Terry Danks posted:

Many thanks, RTR. I just spent a few minutes and this is the kind of thing I have little patience for! Half a day research, then ordering a $3 part that will cost $30 after shipping, customs and brokerage, and then hoping it fits after it gets here.

 I'll probably do the snip thing and a pair of banana plugs!

 

I guess the shipping to a Canadian location really ups the costs. Don't blame you a bit there and I would probably do the same. The snip and banana plugs will work just as well!  

FWIW, all of my new Lionel command control accessories are getting the snip and a terminal strip to get rid of the nifty new plug and play connector (I don't use Fastrack). The adapter cables were $10 each (I need 4 = $40) and then shipping was another $10 or $11. Another $50 just so I can power my accessories that I already spent several hundred on? Not for me, snip...snip...snip, done!