UP 844

OGR Webmaster posted:

J 611 posted:

Is there a way that congressional oversight could positively impact this project?

Good Lord NO!  All the Federal red tape that would come about would guarantee that the 844 would never turn a wheel again.

Why would you want MORE government intrusion into our lives and businesses? There is too much already!

Well, personally I'm glad the Federal Railroad Administration is in place with its inspection and maintenance requirements for steam locomotives, among many other services it provides. If those standards weren't in place and being enforced, I wouldn't want to stand within a mile of 844, or any other steam engine.

breezinup posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

J 611 posted:

Is there a way that congressional oversight could positively impact this project?

Good Lord NO!  All the Federal red tape that would come about would guarantee that the 844 would never turn a wheel again.

Why would you want MORE government intrusion into our lives and businesses? There is too much already!

Well, personally I'm glad the Federal Railroad Administration is in place with its inspection and maintenance requirements for steam locomotives, among many other services it provides. If those standards weren't in place and being enforced, I wouldn't want to stand within a mile of 844, or any other steam engine.

I think Rich was saying that if more Government oversight went into action, beyond what the FRA currently does, then you'd probably not see 844 (and possibly many other steam locomotives) run again.  

Bad enough money is constantly thrown into a flawed highway system, but that's another topic entirely!

Back to topic, I really think that someone needs to do better work on the UP Steam section of UPRR's website.  Talk about sensationalist headlines to click on, to only say substantially less than thought!  The way those links are worded, 844 is a boiler jacket and coat of paint away from hitting the rails!  September, 2015 has them in the final stages of boiler work!

"So you are trying to equate this dope head locomotive operator to a degreed engineer?  I simply can't believe it!!"  As my first boss who was a Nuclear Engineer used to say.  Degrees don't amount to much, look at a thermometer, it has degrees and look where the put them.  Reading some of the comments on hear is like listening to a school yard game of telephone tag.  Someone post some hearsay statements and a bunch of you jump on the band wagon and start bad mouthing the steam program and start speculating on what was done wrong with out any actual facts to back up any statements.  

jmiller320 posted:

"So you are trying to equate this dope head locomotive operator to a degreed engineer?  I simply can't believe it!!"  As my first boss who was a Nuclear Engineer used to say.  Degrees don't amount to much, look at a thermometer, it has degrees and look where the put them.  Reading some of the comments on hear is like listening to a school yard game of telephone tag.  Someone post some hearsay statements and a bunch of you jump on the band wagon and start bad mouthing the steam program and start speculating on what was done wrong with out any actual facts to back up any statements.  

Still doesn't explain why you brought up Ricky Gates...

Nobody is jumping on any bandwagon, we just see with our own eyes the destruction of the once great UP Steam program by a man who obviously has no idea what he is doing. We also read the comments from respected steam people that backs up what our eyes are seeing. You can't see anything because your head is buried in the sand or up the butt of Ed Dickens. You can't hear anything because you have your fingers in your ears and refuse to listen to the facts.

You sir are jumping on the band wagon.  These so called experts have an ax to grind and all anyone is seeing is the one sided opinion of these butthurt individuals.  All the picture that have been discussed have been posted online and can be searched.  I can see through the butthurt and don't jump on the he said she said rumors that are being spread by your hero's.  The Union Pacific decided to do a complete rebuild from the frame up and while doing it they uncovered some questionable work that was done in the past.  

Business as usual.... 

Where's Steve Lee right now? Honest question. 

jmiller320 posted:

You sir are jumping on the band wagon.  These so called experts have an ax to grind and all anyone is seeing is the one sided opinion of these butthurt individuals.  All the picture that have been discussed have been posted online and can be searched.  I can see through the butthurt and don't jump on the he said she said rumors that are being spread by your hero's.  The Union Pacific decided to do a complete rebuild from the frame up and while doing it they uncovered some questionable work that was done in the past.  

What ax does Rich Melvin have to grind? What ax does Jack have to grind? He was just a contract worker who left long before crap hit the fan I believe. Besides he's got a great job firing for somebody who knows what the heck they're doing in Doyle. If Ed Dickens told you the sun set in the east you would probably believe them huh?

pittsburghrailfan posted:

Business as usual.... 

Where's Steve Lee right now? Honest question. 

Working for Wasatch Railroad Contractors in Cheyenne

Spoony81 posted:

pittsburghrailfan posted:

Business as usual.... 

Where's Steve Lee right now? Honest question. 

Working for Wasatch Railroad Contractors in Cheyenne

Is there any way or reason Steve Lee would come back? Or has that ship sailed?

http://www.uphs.org/844boiler.htm       Interesting read....

jmiller320 posted:

You sir are jumping on the band wagon.  These so called experts have an ax to grind and all anyone is seeing is the one sided opinion of these butthurt individuals. 

Members of the previous UP Steam Crew sure as h#$% have an "ax to grind"! Some of those men spent their working careers maintaining, repairing, rebuilding, and even "restoring" 3985 and 844, to the level of the nation's premier, and world renowned steam locomotive program. Not since the late 1950s through 2010, did the Union Pacific NOT have a steam locomotive "ready for service" whenever called upon by the Executive Dept.. In fact, remember that the final excursion of calendar year 2010, for 844 was the 50th Anniversary trip of the UP Steam program!

From January 2011, the "program" quickly went "in the toilet", with no operable steam locomotive since the summer of 2013. How about THAT for RECORD? 

All the picture that have been discussed have been posted online and can be searched.  I can see through the butthurt and don't jump on the he said she said rumors that are being spread by your hero's.  The Union Pacific decided to do a complete rebuild from the frame up and while doing it they uncovered some questionable work that was done in the past.

Actually, the Union Pacific did NOT "decide" to "do a complete rebuild from the frame up...". They HAD to do a complete disassembly of the boiler components as a DIRECT result of the current manager's change of boiler water treatment chemicals, and lake of blowdowns & proper boiler washes. How do suppose all that mud and crud accumulated in the bottom of the boiler on 844, in just two years? Do you REALLY believe that the previous crew left it there? The current manager was on the crew from May 2010, and was present during all the boiler washes, and witnessed how clean the inside really was (yes, I was there also)! In addition, how do you explain the corrosive damage to the interior of the tender? Funny how NONE of such damage was experienced on 3985, since THAT locomotive was quickly pushed into the furthest stall of the roundhouse, never to run again, and had NOT been subjected to the current manager's "new" boiler water treatment chemicals and poor maintenance.

The proof will be when 844 moves (or doesn't) under its own power by July 23.

Rusty

Gary

Rusty Traque posted:

The proof will be when 844 moves (or doesn't) under its own power by July 23.

Rusty

It will have to be WAY before July 23, as that is the day of the CFD Special. The UP deadheads the entire train from Cheyenne to Denver, usually two days prior to the big trip, i.e. July 21. Also, there had better be at least one "break-in" run for 844, more than 2 weeks prior to THAT, in order to fully test everything, make any necessary repairs/tune-ups, and finish all the painting & cleaning.

Hot Water posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

The proof will be when 844 moves (or doesn't) under its own power by July 23.

Rusty

It will have to be WAY before July 23, as that is the day of the CFD Special. The UP deadheads the entire train from Cheyenne to Denver, usually two days prior to the big trip, i.e. July 21. Also, there had better be at least one "break-in" run for 844, more than 2 weeks prior to THAT, in order to fully test everything, make any necessary repairs/tune-ups, and finish all the painting & cleaning.

In other words, the 844 really needs to be ready to boil water around June 23.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Hot Water posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

The proof will be when 844 moves (or doesn't) under its own power by July 23.

Rusty

It will have to be WAY before July 23, as that is the day of the CFD Special. The UP deadheads the entire train from Cheyenne to Denver, usually two days prior to the big trip, i.e. July 21. Also, there had better be at least one "break-in" run for 844, more than 2 weeks prior to THAT, in order to fully test everything, make any necessary repairs/tune-ups, and finish all the painting & cleaning.

In other words, the 844 really needs to be ready to boil water around June 23.

Rusty

Yes, with an FRA Inspector present for the first steam test.

trainroomgary posted:

Gary

these pictures tell me it will not be finished by the middle of june 2016, but maybe june 2017!

It's interesting to read the comments from the so called experts.  Tell us why you think that Big Dodge.

Jmiller, 

I really don't want to take a side in this, but if all of the parts of the locomotive are strewn out on the floor of the shop, and the shop has less than 60 days to put 844 back together and get the engine certified, I don't think they can do it. 

I am am by no means an expert and will avoid picking who I deem an expert, but it just seems like common sense that a project this big can't be done in less than 2 months. 

When I visited the NMRHS and Santa Fe 2926 back in 2012, the engine looked like that. It has taken that crew four years to get to the point where they're ready to steam. Basically, I understand you want to give Ed Dickens the benefit of the doubt, but to my untrained eye, it doesn't look like it'll be ready. 

jmiller320 posted:

It's interesting to read the comments from the so called experts.  Tell us why you think that Big Dodge.

 

Defending bigdodgetrain, I feel that he is right.  The Jacketing is off, the cab and the controls for the engine are gone and by the looks of it they wont get it done till December. It isn't an overnight thing. Hot Water has exposed you in previous responds, I don't see the point going after someone who has little to no experience in rebuilding a loco, stating it won't get done by the date.  It takes time to get stuff rebuilt, took the guys in New Mexico 10 plus years to get 2926 going and they are still not done.

One of my friends in another club I belong to told me he believes that they won't get it rebuilt in time, so 6936 would have to pull the train.

Read all about it: FRA Inspection and Maintenance Standards for Steam Locomotives

Rusty

jmiller320 posted:

It's interesting to read the comments from the so called experts.  Tell us why you think that Big Dodge.

 

take a look at all the items laying around.  do you really believe those parts can be put back together by middle to late june.  remembering that you need time to test before you call in the fra.  or do you believe they should call the fra at initial fire up?

like SDIV Tim says I know nothing and am just going by the pictures supplied.

maybe you believe the pictures are fake?

Eddie Marra posted:

breezinup posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

J 611 posted:

Is there a way that congressional oversight could positively impact this project?

Good Lord NO!  All the Federal red tape that would come about would guarantee that the 844 would never turn a wheel again.

Why would you want MORE government intrusion into our lives and businesses? There is too much already!

Well, personally I'm glad the Federal Railroad Administration is in place with its inspection and maintenance requirements for steam locomotives, among many other services it provides. If those standards weren't in place and being enforced, I wouldn't want to stand within a mile of 844, or any other steam engine.

I think Rich was saying that if more Government oversight went into action, beyond what the FRA currently does, then you'd probably not see 844 (and possibly many other steam locomotives) run again.  

Well, at least that's what you're saying he's saying. Perhaps the focus is that narrow. But what I'm saying is that it's misguided to condemn all Government oversight. I certainly wouldn't advocate for "Congressional" oversight (whatever that could possibly be), as J611 said (especially considering how that place is being run right now), but there are many, many governmental agencies that are doing vital and admirable work. 

It's too bad so many people are completely ignorant of all the functions undertaken by the government and the good work they do. I have a number of friends who work for governmental agencies, from the Department of Justice to Housing and Urban Development (as my wife did for 12 years), and they all work hard at their jobs, and are making a difference. Too many people, when they talk about of governmental involvement, throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Just suggesting some balanced thinking. 

jmiller320 posted:

It's interesting to read the comments from the so called experts.  Tell us why you think that Big Dodge.

 

I'll take a crack at this.  There were pictures posted on Trainorders dated 5/15.  Those pictures showed that there were still no superheaters installed and one set of drivers were out.  It was also stated that it hadn't been firebricked yet.  The firepan is still out of it, the cab is off, the cab signaling needs repaired, the insulation is not done, and the jacketing is not done.  From the information we have, the boiler cannot yet even HOLD water, let alone put it under pressure.  Those repairs must be made and a new FRA inspection must be scheduled and it must PASS. Then it must be steamed up, and what reason do we have to believe that THAT will go trouble free? Also, I have heard no discussion from ANYONE about the needed repairs to the tender having taken place.  You have an EXPERIENCED outside contractor saying on the record that even after a successful hydro test it would take his people at LEAST 120 days to make 844 ready for "revenue" service.  So now please tell us why you think it WILL run this summer.

jmiller320 posted:

It's interesting to read the comments from the so called experts.  Tell us why you think that Big Dodge.

 

Hate to break it to you, Hoss.....but some of them ARE experts.  Plain and simple.  With a lot more "street cred" than just about.....anyone still alive.

CHEYENNE – The special Denver-to-Cheyenne train for Cheyenne Frontier Days will be thundering along the Front Range again this year with the return of Union Pacific’s No. 844 steam locomotive.

The engine has been in Cheyenne for three years to undergo maintenance and repairs at Union Pacific’s steam shop.

With repairs nearly complete, railroad officials have announced the engine will be ready for service in time for Frontier Days in July.

According to a post on Union Pacific’s website, inspections and “break-in runs” are scheduled for No. 844.

“For the past three years, we’ve used E-9 locomotives to pull the Denver Special,” Ed Dickens, manager of heritage operations, said in a press release on the railroad’s website.

“The E-9 locomotives are a crowd pleaser, but I think we can all agree that there’s nothing quite like a steam locomotive.”

No. 844 was the last steam engine built for the Union Pacific Railroad, delivered in 1944.

It is not Thomas the Tank Engine or the Little Engine That Could. The locomotive is a massive, high-speed passenger engine and is still used for special trains across the country.

Its drive wheels are as tall as an adult, and it weighs 454 tons.

The locomotive has a boiler capable of holding 23,500 gallons, and the engine has the towing power of 30 tractor-trailers.

Since No. 844 was taken out of service for restoration, the Frontier Days Train has been led by historic diesel locomotives.

Bill Berg, the general chairman of Cheyenne Frontier Days, said he was excited to learn the steam engine would be back in service.

He said it adds to the historic aspect of Frontier Days.

Berg himself has not been on the excursion, but said it has received rave reviews from passengers.

“They say it’s the opportunity of a lifetime,” he said.

The Frontier Days Train started in 1908 and continued until 1970. It was brought back in 1992, and this year will be the 25th anniversary of its renaissance.

The excursion was and is sponsored by The Denver Post.

The train makes a trip to Cheyenne one Saturday during Frontier Days, this year July 23.

It departs downtown Denver early in the morning, arrives in Cheyenne by late morning and then returns to Denver in the evening.

The Union Pacific route from Denver parallels U.S. Highway 85 for most of the Colorado portion of the trip, through Brighton, Fort Lupton, Greeley, Ault, Pierce and Nunn.

From there, the route turns northwest, going through Carr, Colorado, before crossing into Wyoming at the Terry Bison Ranch and continuing north to Cheyenne.

The train’s route is a popular photo opportunity for rail fans.

Once in Cheyenne, passengers are bused from the Cheyenne Depot to Frontier Park.

The $350 per person ticket price includes transportation, entertainment on the train, a continental breakfast on board, a lunch buffet in Cheyenne, a boxed dinner and two alcoholic drinks on the return trip, and admission to the CFD Rodeo.

Proceeds from ticket sales go to The Denver Post Community Foundation.

So what if UP officials said it would ready?  Who are these officials, exactly WHAT do they know about steam engines, and how did they come to the conclusion that 844 will be ready?  My guess is one of two things. 1) Ed TOLD them it would be ready, which means nothing, because he doesn't know either, OR 2) UP told Ed it WILL be ready OR ELSE.  Either way, Ed's kind of screwed. 

Well from the posted photo's it seems Ed needs to get on the stick in a big hurry as he's simply running out of time!

His only real enemy today is Father Time and he is not forgiving nor understanding.

pittsburghrailfan posted:

Spoony81 posted:

pittsburghrailfan posted:

Business as usual.... 

Where's Steve Lee right now? Honest question. 

Working for Wasatch Railroad Contractors in Cheyenne

Is there any way or reason Steve Lee would come back? Or has that ship sailed?

I can't imagine a scenario where that would happen.  One, he's been retired for several years now, and is not exactly a kid any more either.  I'm not sure UP would be interested in doing such a thing even if he DID want to come back.  From what information I've seen, Steve is enjoying his retirement,  working pretty much when and on what he wants to, enjoying his grandkids and catching up with his family after years of a very demanding railroad job.  On a personal level, I'm sure there would be some deep down satisfaction if he could come in a straighten this mess out, but would it be worth the hassle?  After all that has been said and all that has been done, I think the well has been poisoned to the point that I wouldn't expect ANY former crew member to ever go back.  Would YOU want to go back to work for a company that stood by and allowed your successors to trash your reputation?

When Supt. Lee was running the show, who was his number two?  You would think that person would move up to Supt. Lee's position.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

When Supt. Lee was running the show, who was his number two?  You would think that person would move up to Supt. Lee's position.

There was NO "number two". The Steam Crew was an extremely experienced team and everyone knew what their job was, and did it. There was no micro-managing, as when the current manager took over.

You have a "manager" of UP steam operations going on Facebook to comment on how shiny the Johnson Bar will be in 844.  

I'm not that well-versed in the physical rebuilding of a steam locomotive, but having seen film and reading on it, 844, in this current stage, will NOT run for Frontier Days.

The only way I see a UP 4-8-4 running then is if an HO gauge layout is running a Bachmann one nearby.

Eddie Marra posted:

You have a "manager" of UP steam operations going on Facebook to comment on how shiny the Johnson Bar will be in 844.  

I'm not that well-versed in the physical rebuilding of a steam locomotive, but having seen film and reading on it, 844, in this current stage, will NOT run for Frontier Days.

The only way I see a UP 4-8-4 running then is if an HO gauge layout is running a Bachmann one nearby.

If you're referring to the Union Pacific 3986/844 info page that is run by a bunch fanboys who have no affiliation with UP Steam. They are fascinated with Dickens and take everything he tells them as gospel.

Spoony81 posted:

Eddie Marra posted:

You have a "manager" of UP steam operations going on Facebook to comment on how shiny the Johnson Bar will be in 844.  

I'm not that well-versed in the physical rebuilding of a steam locomotive, but having seen film and reading on it, 844, in this current stage, will NOT run for Frontier Days.

The only way I see a UP 4-8-4 running then is if an HO gauge layout is running a Bachmann one nearby.

If you're referring to the Union Pacific 3986/844 info page that is run by a bunch fanboys who have no affiliation with UP Steam. They are fascinated with Dickens and take everything he tells them as gospel.

Thank you for the clarification!

What worries me, beyond the possibility that 844 will end up like Flying Scotsman (10 years being rebuilt to repair faulty restoration work before that) or worse just a static display, is that they are also entrusting a Challenger and Big Boy to this team?!?!?!?

If they can't do a 4-8-4, dollars to donuts they can't handle articulateds!

If they can't make it they will simply claim "unforeseen issues," make a token apology, and "promise" next year.

It's very easy to skate on this.

Matt Kirsch posted:

If they can't make it they will simply claim "unforeseen issues," make a token apology, and "promise" next year.

It's very easy to skate on this.

I believe that is what they did back in 2014 also.

I'm wondering how many times they can do that, with this being covered by the media.  Yes there can be a disclaimer about a change in equipment, but this ends up a PR black eye to the UP.  You've got tickets being sold for a ride predicated on it being pulled by a steam locomotive.

From what I've been reading here and the comments from guys in the industry who have proven time and again that they know what they're doing and know what they're talking about, I wouldn't let Dickens play with LEGO blocks, let alone a 300 PSI potential bomb.

What is Mr Ed's qualifications/ background for working on mainline steam...any at all?? 

Spoony81 posted:

Eddie Marra posted:

You have a "manager" of UP steam operations going on Facebook to comment on how shiny the Johnson Bar will be in 844.  

I'm not that well-versed in the physical rebuilding of a steam locomotive, but having seen film and reading on it, 844, in this current stage, will NOT run for Frontier Days.

The only way I see a UP 4-8-4 running then is if an HO gauge layout is running a Bachmann one nearby.

If you're referring to the Union Pacific 3986/844 info page that is run by a bunch fanboys who have no affiliation with UP Steam. They are fascinated with Dickens and take everything he tells them as gospel.

Fakebook (sic) is entertainment at best and base narcissism at worst.