UPDATE - Lionel GS4 and Santa Fe H16-44

I have been in contact with Mike Reagan and he confirmed that the GS4s will also have correctly-sized drive rods.  It does seem that Lionel is paying much more attention to detail than they had when I first started buying scale trains 7 years ago, and for that they should be commended.

Very nice, informative report.  Here are a few "extra facts" that Lionel should be made aware of, concerning the SP GS-4 train number indicator boxes:

1) Note that the forward mounted train number indicators are not as steep an angle as the relocated/rearward indicator boxes, i.e. the relocated/rearward boxes are of much different dimensions and thus "stick out" much further to show off the train number.

2) As the name implies, the "Train Number Indicators" should carry the train number that the locomotive is assigned to handle. Only on rare occasions did the SP GS class Daylight locomotives carry an "X4444", for example, in the train indicators. Probably the most famous Daylight train of all, was number 98 & 99, thus the model's Train Number Indicators should reflect either 98 or 99, for the "Coast Daylight" passenger train. Only the Freedom Train version and today's excursion version of 4449 should have "X4449" carried in the train indicators.

WOW.  These are trains that run on three rail track and are powered by electric motors.  I am glad I am a toy train guy and can appreciate the great work by Ryan Kunkle.  BTW Ryan, I am very thankful for your efforts and great work.

Here is a photo of the GS-4 I took at Railfair  99.

T4TT

"I have been in contact with Mike Reagan and he confirmed that the GS4s will also have correctly-sized drive rods." 

That is good news.

The people at Lionel today are the best ever.   They will make every effort to do everything correct.

Marty I totally agree!  There is a lot of negative sentiment posted on the forum and I really appreciate your positive posts.  I agree that the folks at Lionel are top notch!

No question Marty is a positive voice in O guage.

However, especially given Lionels premium price, folks can appreciate when members  suggest prototypical details for Lionel to change/add that make the model even better. As T4TT mentioned above, Lionel has "started" to listen.

You guys give me great hope.

First, I am a Daylight fanatic - I have three scale Daylights imported by Max Gray, USH, and Weaver.  I have a GS-2 in full Daylight dress that I scratchbuilt in 17/64 scale.  I sleep. With my copy of the Church book.  I paint my own.

But for the life of me, I cannot remember which paint scheme goes with what number board placement.  I can read the above, but when I turn the computer off, I just forget.

But the great thing is - you are paying attention to details.  When you discover that missing tailbeam or those too-small cylinders, you will surpass me in awareness of details.  And you will force these die cast folks to go the extra distance to produce truly scale models.

I do hope Lionel will make the correct rods for the FEF - I am tired of laboriously making side rod masters, and coordinating with the foundry.  I never did do a really good set for the FEF or Challenger.

bob2 posted:

 

But for the life of me, I cannot remember which paint scheme goes with what number board placement.  I can read the above, but when I turn the computer off, I just forget.

 

If you ever forget, you can Google "Southern Pacific 4449 photos" and look at the dozens of photographs that are there. The crew keeps it authentic. Periodically they have changed the lettering scheme on the tender, and when the tender is painted with the small "Southern Pacific Lines," the number boards on the engine are in the front. When they have the tender painted with the large "Southern Pacific" lettering, the number boards are in the middle of the engine. So you can just look at the pictures to refresh your memory.  

But the point is, I do not carry all those photos with me when I am viewing my models.  In fact, I do not remember where they are on any of my models just sitting here.  I do care about those other things I mentioned above.  To each his own, right?

bob2 posted:

You guys give me great hope.

First, I am a Daylight fanatic - I have three scale Daylights imported by Max Gray, USH, and Weaver.  I have a GS-2 in full Daylight dress that I scratchbuilt in 17/64 scale.  I sleep. With my copy of the Church book.  I paint my own.

But for the life of me, I cannot remember which paint scheme goes with what number board placement.  I can read the above, but when I turn the computer off, I just forget.

 

Now Bob, that statement is pretty hard for me to believe. As highly intelligent as you are, with a memory like a steel trap for everything O Scale, and a former Airline Pilot, you mean to say that you can't remember how the train number indicators are placed on SP GS class locomotives?

Hot, interesting info about the number boards having a different shape depending on placement.

I can understand the concern about committing to buying a model if the catalog is incorrect but in this case Lionel has got it right on their previous models with number board placement correct for the lettering era. FWIW the moving of the number boards occurred before the lettering was changed by a few years so Small SP Lines along with rearward located number boards would also be OK......sort of, as this change was made during WWII when most if not all of the engines were painted black.

Pete

Was it approximately right after WWII, 1946 or so, when all the lettering on the Daylight GS tenders was changed from "Southern Pacific Lines" to the large "Southern Pacific" lettering? 

breezinup posted:

Was it approximately right after WWII, 1946 or so, when all the lettering on the Daylight GS tenders was changed from "Southern Pacific Lines" to the large "Southern Pacific" lettering? 

Yes. The SP began the change to just "SOUTHERN PACIFIC" in 1946, and surprisingly completed the "change over" fairly quickly, i.e. less than 2 years.

The relocation, and mounting angle of the Train Number Indicators was started about 1942/1943.

I am truly delighted that this sort of thing catches the interest of 3-railers.  It is selfish, because it forces the importers to look harder at accuracy, which then filters down to things that I care about - overall shape, aspect ratios, cylinder size, and yes, side rods.

When things like number board placement bother me, I simply move them and stop worrying.  But so far, the number boards on a GS- class have been extremely low on my list.  I did re-driver my Max Gray - could not stand looking at the inaccurate Boxpok pattern.  It got Overland drivers and NWSL/Pittman power, and now is like a Swiss watch.

My Weaver is inaccurate - it is a GS-3 with a GS-4 tender.  I just added a fireman's porch and happily pressed on.  I may someday get rid of that screwhead holding the rear ladder on.  I did do all the 2-rail machining on it.

Signed: Obliviousman.

Hot Water posted:

breezinup posted:

Was it approximately right after WWII, 1946 or so, when all the lettering on the Daylight GS tenders was changed from "Southern Pacific Lines" to the large "Southern Pacific" lettering? 

Yes. The SP began the change to just "SOUTHERN PACIFIC" in 1946, and surprisingly completed the "change over" fairly quickly, i.e. less than 2 years.

The relocation, and mounting angle of the Train Number Indicators was started about 1942/1943.

Thanks, Hot Water. I am going to get one of these GS-4s, and have some Lionel 18" streamlined pass. cars waiting. Would it be correct to assume that using a GS-4 with the later large "Southern Pacific" tender lettering would be more prototypical to use with the streamlined cars?

BREEZINUP,

Since the SP received their first "streamlined" passenger cars in 1937, I believe, it pretty much depends on which era you desire to model. Daylight streamlined passenger cars, with fluted sides and "Souther Pacific Lines" lettering from 1937 through 1946, or passenger cars with fluted sides and the "SOUTHERN PACIFIC" lettering after 1946 through the early 1950s, or lastly, passenger cars with smooth sides powered by either steam or diesel, from the early 1950s forward.

There's another discrepancy with the Lionel GS-4 besides the number board placement which no one else seemed to notice.

The connecting rods, just like in Lionel's original release of this model, are wrong.

The rods they used on their GS-4 are the same ones they used on the scale GS2 & GS6 which predated Lionel's scale GS-4 in the market.  What the GS2 and GS6 used was a narrower, "lighter duty" type of connecting rod whereas the GS4 (and the GS 5)had heavier, "beefier" rods.  Probably did this as a cost-cutting measure, or they didn't check against the prototype.

Here's a couple of pictures that show the differences:

GS-2 connecting rod

GS-4/5 connecting rod

Lionel, to the best of my knowledge is the only importer out of the likes of Sunset/3rd Rail, Weaver, Williams (brass) & MTH that got this detail wrong on O scale versions of the GS-4.   It's enough of a detraction to me that I originally passed on their first release, and unless Lionel corrects this on the latest catalog offering, I'm inclined to pass on that one too.

JOHN KORLING,

Did you happen to read the entire thread? It has already been posted, above, that someone from Lionel has indicated that they are going to correct this error.

Hot Water posted:

JOHN KORLING,

Did you happen to read the entire thread? It has already been posted, above, that someone from Lionel has indicated that they are going to correct this error.

No JACK, I didn't see that referenced, my bad.  If that's true then it's great news.  Wonder if they will stock them as replacement/upgrade parts for existing models out there?

John Korling posted:

Hot Water posted:

JOHN KORLING,

Did you happen to read the entire thread? It has already been posted, above, that someone from Lionel has indicated that they are going to correct this error.

 

No JACK, I didn't see that referenced, my bad.  If that's true then it's great news.  Wonder if they will stock them as replacement/upgrade parts for existing models out there?

Now THAT would be a GREAT idea!  I would changeout the main rods on my Legacy GS-4 in a heartbeat.

Hot Water posted:

Now THAT would be a GREAT idea!  I would changeout the main rods on my Legacy GS-4 in a heartbeat.

I'm frankly surprised, given your identical fickleness for prototype accuracy as I am, to have been willing overlook that detail by buying the first release. 

John Korling posted:

Hot Water posted:

Now THAT would be a GREAT idea!  I would changeout the main rods on my Legacy GS-4 in a heartbeat.

I'm frankly surprised, given your identical fickleness for prototype accuracy as I am, to have been willing overlook that detail by buying the first release. 

I certainly did NOT overlook that. But I was not able to look a gift-horse in the mouth for free model. My real dilemma has been, from the day I received it, that "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering on the tender. Since I still have a number of the special Champ Decal sets for SP Daylight steam locomotives, simply having my custom painter buddy correct the lettering to the large SOUTHERN PACIFIC, still leaves the incorrect location of the Train Order Indicators.

Thus, I may just wind up selling it. Decissions, decissions! 

I did ask Mike about a replacement kit.  He did not say one way or the other on that.  Time will tell I supopose, or maybe  Mike will chime in.

Hot Water posted:

I certainly did NOT overlook that. But I was not able to look a gift-horse in the mouth for free model. 

Is this the one with your voice as the crewtalk, or is that the MTH model?  I agree with John on the suprised part but if it was " free", that makes more sense.

RickO posted:

Hot Water posted:

I certainly did NOT overlook that. But I was not able to look a gift-horse in the mouth for free model. 

Is this the one with your voice as the crewtalk, or is that the MTH model?  I agree with John on the suprised part but if it was " free", that makes more sense.

My voice is on the early MTH GS-4 models. I don't know if they still use it.

breezinup posted:

Hot Water posted:

BREEZINUP,

Since the SP received their first "streamlined" passenger cars in 1937, I believe, it pretty much depends on which era you desire to model. Daylight streamlined passenger cars, with fluted sides and "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering from 1937 through 1946, or passenger cars with fluted sides and the "SOUTHERN PACIFIC" lettering after 1946 through the early 1950s, or lastly, passenger cars with smooth sides powered by either steam or diesel, from the early 1950s forward.

Thanks for this information. Since the Lionel 18" aluminum Daylight cars have fluted sides and "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering, it appears their correct timeframe thus would be 1937-1946, and the engine tender should have the "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering as well (assuming prototypical operation matters, which is the direction I lean).

In any case, it seems appropriate for this train that the lettering on the engine/tender should match that on the cars, where there was such a clear effort by the railroad to maintain proper decorum of these top-of-the-line trains.

It appears the new plastic 21" Daylight cars are the same type of cars, fluted with the "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering.

 

By 1949 the Daylight cars were sent everywhere. I saw them in the Golden State, along with red and silver Golden Rocket cars and green heavyweight Pullmans, usually pulled by a pair of GS-class locomotives, on the old El Paso and Southwestern route.  By that time, perhaps they stopped paying much attention to what was painted how and when.  I believe the only thing that remained pure was the Sunset - all Budd cars, and it went through at midnight.  I was young enough to think it was a tornado coming to kill me.

I bet you could find the same thing in the San Joaquin Valley, after they pulled steam out of Arizona in 1951 - but by then the skirts had come off all the GS class.

With some imagination, you can get away with a lot - even five foot gauge.

Give us a link?  I cannot post photos anymore, either.  I can't even edit - well, I can, but the "Post" button just stares at me.  I am ok with that; you have seen all my photos, including the scratchbuilt GS-2, on multiple occasions.

Back in the day.......

Matching "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering - tender and cars - depicted in this print.....

Later cars with "Southern Pacific" lettering:

"Southern Pacific" lettering with smooth sided cars:

The MTH smooth sided Daylight set includes a dome car. I am guessing from photos that domes were not used on the Coast Daylight trains. Is that correct?

Southern Pacific did not have any regular dome cars like MTH has in there sets. They did have at a later time some full domes, however they were really only about 3/4 length of the overall car.

Great to here Lionel is listening to everyone! And if you have not placed your order for one of these, you have till Monday.

http://www.nassauhobby.com/LEGACY-STEAM-LOCOMOTIVES/