Upgrading equipment? Why not speakers too! [Apr 2017]

Sorry... I'm working on this; seems there was an upload problem.  

Nice topic though. Can't wait to play the videos and hear the difference.

Ok, try this until I can get the videos to upload. 

Mario, what are you using to drive the speakers? I agree lower is better but results will vary if its white noise (equal energy per decade), pink noise (equal energy per octave), or swept sine wave. Also is the APP specific to the microphone response in your smart device? 

Pete

Just one question then. What is going into the speakers? Does the App drive the speaker from the earphone jack?

Pete

Norton posted:

Mario, what are you using to drive the speakers? I agree lower is better but results will vary if its white noise (equal energy per decade), pink noise (equal energy per octave), or swept sine wave. Also is the APP specific to the microphone response in your smart device? 

Pete

 

Pete!

The good news is I just learned what white, pink and brown noise are!...

https://youtu.be/9T978ES0LdQ

The bad news is I have no idea how to answer you.

heres some more info:

Norton posted:

Just one question then. What is going into the speakers? Does the App drive the speaker from the earphone jack?

Pete

 

Sorry...

I'm using the TMCC system in the locomotive to drive the speakers... The only modification that I made to the locomotive was swapping out the generic diesel chips (PIC & ROM) for the EMD F unit specific sounds, with a single note horn.

Details here: https://youtu.be/FZLja1HmzWY

The app only measure the incoming sounds from the microphone; yes to your next question...

yes, these are the stock Lionel sounds that are that good.

This is good stuff!   What is the part number on the Tang Band 50cent size speaker with enclosure?  Perhaps this?

They make a few different sizes, and their website is easy to use and has all the dimensions...

But they are all 4ohm, so I had to order the 4ohm "audio" resistors; they're about a buck a piece.  The speakers, designed for sound bars and DIY computer guys, are about $40 a pair, depending on size. 

My inspiration was from here: http://forum.aorailroad.com/t/...11-sound-install/220

The W-series are just the driver, no enclosures...

The T-series have the enclosures. 

The 0, 1 or 2 are the size of the drivers. 

The bottom picture are the mock ups of the enclosures to see what would fit where; with the 1925S used in hood units and the 1931S in cab, possibly. 

The BIG one, the 1828S, might shoe horn into a large tender. wink... ;<

(Semi-scale Mikado tender shown). 

The 1925S is what is used here: https://photos.smugmug.com/Tra...0/TestDrive-1280.mp4

Tang Band & laptop speaker in series...

don't forget how high stock was...

Interesting.  I guess the question will they fit in the powered units? From the  looks of one option it would fit in the fuel tanks of the longer hood units.  Have you tried them with any MTH units yet? 

My next fit is going to be in an MTH PA. 

Changed the links over to embedded videos; sorry, I couldn't do this from my phone.

Try to listen on larger speakers to hear the main difference... I took this video yesterday, and according to analysis the low (75Hz) bass starts to come up first and then the rest of the sound matches the Tang Band / Laptop speaker setup.

This excites me, as this says I'm on the right track (pun intended).

Question - only because I have a few lying around. What would the reading be if you swapped in the Lionel "Fatboy" speakers?

I did upgrade my EM-1 to Fatboy speakers and noticed a huge audible difference.

Do you have a recording with the Tang Band speakers in the shell... The improvement is fantastic.

J Daddy posted:

Question - only because I have a few lying around. What would the reading be if you swapped in the Lionel "Fatboy" speakers?

I did upgrade my EM-1 to Fatboy speakers and noticed a huge audible difference.

Great question...

I'm also wondering how this stacks up to current Legacy RailSounds and speakers.  I do want to test that, and will probably open up a Legacy shark to test that... Preliminary testing, based on Marker's (Howard) using the same spectrum analyzer and posted YouTube videos, mine and others, still shows that this setup can get down lower than modern Legacy units.  But, this isn't apples-to-apples, and I agree that the Fat-Boy speakers are great!

Marker says "I listened to a bunch of O gauge sound equipped locos on YouTube.  None of them, including new Legacy engines, go as low as yours.  You really have something!"

I also want to try testing this when I convert my new ten-wheeler over to Kadees.

Thanks!

- Mario

Good stuff Mario. Perhaps you could include the Lionel FatBoy 40mm and 50mm speakers in your evaluation? In my objective opinion they are some fantastic speakers. As a life long audiophile, sound is one of the reason I gravitated to the larger scales. Enclosure type and design play a huge role in the frequency response as well. Broadway Limited has an interesting system with a subwoofer that sits under the layout to fill in the missing bass tones. IMHO there is too much of a gap between where the onboard sound rolls off and the subwoofer ramps up in HO scale. Looking at your graph I believe a system like that would work much better in O scale. You simply aren't going to get the SPL you want out of any speaker that fits inside the loco @75 Hz. A remote subwoofer could provide that.  Just a thought.

Does the Tang  Band speaker fit in the fuel tank area of the  FT? Or  is the placement shown replace the smoke unit improve the sound?

Boy if anyone wanted to make some coin, come up with a sound system to plug and play for those Dummy F3 A and B units!!!

jonnyspeed posted:

Good stuff Mario. Perhaps you could include the Lionel FatBoy 40mm and 50mm speakers in your evaluation? In my objective opinion they are some fantastic speakers. As a life long audiophile, sound is one of the reason I gravitated to the larger scales. Enclosure type and design play a huge role in the frequency response as well. Broadway Limited has an interesting system with a subwoofer that sits under the layout to fill in the missing bass tones. IMHO there is too much of a gap between where the onboard sound rolls off and the subwoofer ramps up in HO scale. Looking at your graph I believe a system like that would work much better in O scale. You simply aren't going to get the SPL you want out of any speaker that fits inside the loco @75 Hz. A remote subwoofer could provide that.  Just a thought.

I'm still trying to think of ways to get this Bluetooth audio (subwoofer, mainly) split to work.  Maybe these audio resistors are the key.  The problem before is that I was just sending too much through the BT transmitter and the speaker system couldn't handle it.

J Daddy posted:

Does the Tang  Band speaker fit in the fuel tank area of the  FT? Or  is the placement shown replace the smoke unit improve the sound?

Boy if anyone wanted to make some coin, come up with a sound system to plug and play for those Dummy F3 A and B units!!!

 

This sized speaker does not fit in the fuel tank of the F units, and looking at others; stay tuned.

But, it should fit in the fuel tank of larger diesels.  I'm going to try it in my GP35s and 40... eventually.  There's just so much time available.

suzukovich posted:

Interesting.  I guess the question will they fit in the powered units? From the  looks of one option it would fit in the fuel tanks of the longer hood units.  Have you tried them with any MTH units yet? 

I pulled the GP40 off the shelf this morning... and have an idea.

With the older Proto-2 diesel engines, I was thinking of replacing the 16-ohm speaker with an 8-ohm in the powered unit and an 8-ohm in the dummy wired in series through a plug connection. For F-units, I had been looking at these scenarios as I'm separating a Proto-2 FT ABBA set into two FT AB  drawbar sets. The last option is what I'm looking at for a Proto-3 ABBA F7 set:

CentralFan1976 posted:

J Daddy posted:

Does the Tang  Band speaker fit in the fuel tank area of the  FT? Or  is the placement shown replace the smoke unit improve the sound?

Boy if anyone wanted to make some coin, come up with a sound system to plug and play for those Dummy F3 A and B units!!!

 

This sized speaker does not fit in the fuel tank of the F units, and looking at others; stay tuned.

But, it should fit in the fuel tank of larger diesels.  I'm going to try it in my GP35s and 40... eventually.  There's just so much time available.

This is what I'm working on for putting sound in B and dummy units... pulling the sound from an Trainsounds unit, upgrading the speaker and pulling it with the volume slightly lower than the powered units, as there's no transition sounds.  The way that this sound system notches up is using a sensor next to the lead axle of the lead truck, and sensing movement of the rotating magnet.  There are small motors mounted crosswise in each truck, and directly drives both axles.

This way, the engine RPM will notch up (there's 3 available; idle, 1 & 2) depending on speed, and is not related to voltage.  and the best part?  There's a very little space needed!

Thoughts?

FYI the 1931S module now shows a minimum order quantity of 200 units.  The loose speaker is still open stock. This is unfortunate because the module has an oval passive radiator tuned to extend the bass response by about one octave.

The 1931 module is too wide to fit in any of my 2R locomotives except for steam tenders. I could shoehorn it into a powered P&D F3B but not an A with cab detail.

riogrande491 posted:

FYI the 1931S module now shows a minimum order quantity of 200 units.  The loose speaker is still open stock. This is unfortunate because the module has an oval passive radiator tuned to extend the bass response by about one octave.

The 1931 module is too wide to fit in any of my 2R locomotives except for steam tenders. I could shoehorn it into a powered P&D F3B but not an A with cab detail.

Thanks, Bob!

I see you saw my post! Exciting...

I ordered my speaker pair on other websites, not direct from TB.  And I agree, once we get something good, it goes away.

I also agree, I don't think these are going to fit in/under the F units, but I have high hopes for the Geeps.  One thing that I'm looking at is machining the fuel tank to fit, basically making the speaker part of the tank, with sides and piping.  I'll have to post pictures as I meander along the road, but I want to get at least one unit done for the Great NYS Train Fair in November, for public demonstration.

Thanks!

- Mario

Who has the 1931S module in stock? Parts Express shows them with the minimum order quantity.

riogrande491 posted:

Who has the 1931S module in stock? Parts Express shows them with the minimum order quantity.

Well, Dang it. I bought mine on eBay, from whom? You guessed it; Parts Express!

Oh, here's some shots of the speakers next to an Atlas GP35 fuel tank. 

Some clever machining might just work. 

I got the Lionel F-unit fuel tank back from our machine shop today...

A few slips but it was an extra one anyway...

Well see how the TB speakers fit when we get home. 

Mario, did you ever get this done?

Engineer-Joe posted:

Mario, did you ever get this done?

Never did get the Geep done; long story. 

But, I did put the Daddy of Tang Band speakers in the Commodore!

https://youtu.be/sG729NjM0l8

Thanks!

-Mario

What happened, Mario?

FYI there are 3 Tang Band module sizes currently in stock that cover most installs, the smallest T0-2008S, T1-1925S and T1-1931S. And they are available in single-unit quantities. Others such as the T1-1828SD which I plan to fit in modified 2R P&D F-units and the Mario's 1942S are still in stock.

Just a reminder, these are 4 ohm speakers. If a decoder is rated for 8 ohms, you can put a 4 ohm 1 watt carbon resistor in series. This will somewhat influence the frequency response.

That is actually good for my use. I use MTH boards and the 4 ohms works out perfect. If I had to get to 8 ohms from 4, I would try to use a second speaker where possible wired in series, over the resistor. I have to believe that it would be better to have an 8 ohm or even 2-16 ohms in parallel though. If it works, that's all that matters.

You got it team!

I used two 4 Ohm speakers in the CommVan, the BIG Tang Band in the tender and a laptop speaker, with a long, skinny enclosure in the boiler. 

After running at the show this past November, I wasn’t happy with its performance.  The CommVan will be rebuilt (hopefully this winter) with the correct dark gray bodies and some re-wiring of the current ERR electronics.   I’m still deciding if I want to use the as-built spoked wheels / standard rods, or keep the Scullin discs and add roller bearing rods. I’ve got this frame, a “metric” frame & two sets of Scullins, but no spoked drivers.

As for the modified F unit fuel tank; to make a long story short, I forgot it in the machine shop when I left my former employer.  I’ve yet to stop back in, maybe this week.