Hey these look great!
Can you tell me more on how you did these? I just finished updating my 2004 versions with closer coupling
Bob I've never seen the inside of the K-Line F units, but my Lionel F3s had 3 different spots that were rubbing the flywheels after I lowered them. The one that took me a bit to figure out was the cab interior roof that was used to house the two interior light bulbs. The shell was pushing that part of the "roof" down on top of the front flywheel. I also had to grind down a couple spots of the shell for the rear flywheel. The Dremel made quick work out of those, and I ended up removing the interior "roof" anyway because I took the lights out completely. I don't drive with the dome lights on 
Lowering the frame or shell usually causes some sort of issues within the powered units. Clearance being the biggest issue. It does eliminate or at least minimize the thickness of the spacer needed between the pilot and the shell. My MTH FTs are not being lowered because of the way the motor directly attaches to the truck block. It would be a major modification which would also cause a major clearance issue for the smoke unit. Same with my Lionel F7s, hence the .125 spacer. Though that is not prototypically accurate either, the fixed pilot with close coupled Kadees looks 100% better anyway.
J Daddy posted:Hey these look great!
Can you tell me more on how you did these? I just finished updating my 2004 versions with closer coupling
J Daddy
They look great!
I used the stock pilot on the 1998 Lionel PA-1s. I unscrewed the pilot and the coupler from the truck and cut off the pilot mounting tab with a Dremel disc. I drilled 2 holes in the pilot and lined it up with the shell, marked, drilled and tapped 2 holes in the frame to mount it. The holes in the pilot were a little oversized so I had some wiggle room to line things up. I filled the gap with 2 strips of 3/16 wide styrene glued in with ACC and filled/sanded twice with Tamiya white putty. Then drilled and tapped the pilot to mount a Kadee on spacers.
The hoses/lines are brass from Precision Scale drilled and mounted, the retaining brackets were made from brass strip with plastic NBW castings glued on.
I drilled out the nose for the lower headlight. That is the original flat-topped incandescent bulb. It is a press fit in the shell. The original upper headlight now has an LED behind it running off a MARS simulator circuit I built.
Bob
Doug
There were some projections in the shell that I already flattened with the Dremel. This evening, I'm going to take off the plastic cab wall/motor shield and re-assemble it and maybe I can see where it's binding. I can get a good line of sight for the front motor at least. The shield is slightly taller than the flywheel, so I thought I had enough room.
The engineers seem to use up every millimeter of vertical space for the motors and flywheels!
Bob
Good Afternoon Gents, after seeing this posting several times, I also like the look of the lowered fixed pilots and I would love to do that to my trains down the line, but when you make the adjustment what is usually the new minimum curve that your train will run on once this is done. I'm in the process of building my layout now with O-72 to O-81 curves on my bottom level but not to many wide curves on my upper levels and this is a concern if the modification is gonna change my minimum curve 036 - 042 range
I have run the Alco PA/PB-1 on O-72. It is coupled to an 18" baggage car with a body mounted Kadee in front. The nose Kadees are body mounted, while the tail ones and the B unit are mounted Talgo style, screwed to the old coupler mount on the truck.
Lionel Sharks configured the same way (nose Kadees body mounted, tail ones and B unit Talgo style) run on O-54 and even O-45.
Bob
Greg I've never had any issues with 072 after close coupling my 4 axle engines. Some of the 6 axle engines had issues when running as an multiple unit consist, but opening up the sides of the Kadee draft gear box solved that problem.
I close coupled all my Lionel PA, FA, E6 and F3 units and I can negotiate O 72 curves with no problems.
Laidoffsick posted:Greg I've never had any issues with 072 after close coupling my 4 axle engines. Some of the 6 axle engines had issues when running as an multiple unit consist, but opening up the sides of the Kadee draft gear box solved that problem.
Hey Doug, thanks for replying back, what I should have said was sometime back I heard that once you modified an F3 to a fixed pilot engine, it would no longer run on O-36, O-42. It had to run on O-60 or better. I've got about 10 F3's, one I had when I was 2 years old and for lack of knowledge and experience in doing a modification I would be devastated if I messed them up, however I would truly love to beautify it in the most prototypical way, all the hoses and kadees that I could use. I hope that I clarified my situation a little bit more. Talk to me !! It's the smaller radius track that I still want to be able to run on, I would like the flexibility to ride as many radii small to large as I can, my upcoming layout has a little bit of everything and not for long stretches.
Body mounted Kadees with fixed pilots really limit your curves. Several guys including JDaddy got great results with truck mounted dummy couplers. Just depends on what you run your engines on, as to how you mou t the couplers.
Many times on my less attractive sets like the high water Lionel F7s, MTH F3s, and my new MTH FTs, I just fix the pilot and body mount Kadees to the nose of the A units. The rest retain their truck mounted 3 rail coupler because they are close coupled enough for me not to hassle with the conversion.
Space between diaphragms effect turning radius as well. They need a little space between them and flex in the curves. If they are tight with no flex... that equals derailments.
If you want to maintain tight curves, maybe you just wanna put Kadees on the lead engine for looks and leave the rest 3 rail.
Thanks guys for all the help. Here's some progress photos. I lowered the units, added new Lionel fixed pilots and Kadees. I added a spacer to lower the pilot at LOS' recommendation. Here is the before pic:
And the after:
Interestingly, Santa Fe had 2 different Freight Style pilots. The Lionel one matches this prototype perfectly, while the P&D pilot matches another prototype at the beginning of this thread.
Bob
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Images (4)
Nice work Bob, looks great.
Just stumbled across this thread - lots of good info.
You certainly dis a great job on those K-Line Bob. What have you been working on lately?
You guys have done it, again! LOS & Co, you're always there just when I need you. The Forum alone is worth thrice the price of a subscription to OGR in gratitude for expensive errors not committed and modification techniques that make O Gauge Railroading as close to prototype as currently possible.
3RS is highly addictive and have been converting everything MILW-UP-CGW, etc. Now, the planets and eBay have finally aligned to grant me one of my heart's desires: "mint" Lionel F3s with TMCC and magne-traction in prototypical (non-flaming) Milwaukee Road colors. I had a set of flamers back in the '70's but sold them off - the "flames" were a serious turn-off. Now, I prepare to make my first covered wagon conversion with fear and trembling. Thanks for the guidance!
Rapid Transit Holmes posted:You guys have done it, again! LOS & Co, you're always there just when I need you. The Forum alone is worth thrice the price of a subscription to OGR in gratitude for expensive errors not committed and modification techniques that make O Gauge Railroading as close to prototype as currently possible.
3RS is highly addictive and have been converting everything MILW-UP-CGW, etc. Now, the planets and eBay have finally aligned to grant me one of my heart's desires: "mint" Lionel F3s with TMCC and magne-traction in prototypical (non-flaming) Milwaukee Road colors. I had a set of flamers back in the '70's but sold them off - the "flames" were a serious turn-off. Now, I prepare to make my first covered wagon conversion with fear and trembling. Thanks for the guidance!
There’s no fear here!
The Lionel F3s are some of the easiest to convert.
Check out: Lowering Lionel F3s; https://ogrforum.com/.../lowering-lionel-f3s
For the Lionel F3s, once you lower them, the pilot should match up to the body curves. What they did in the design to swing the pilot, was to slice the blueprint at the rivet line and raise her up. In general, I’ve found that MTH removes the piece from the blueprint to make their gap and thats what needs to be filled, and I think K-Line did the same.
If you’re going to use the P&D passenger pilot, this may be helpful: https://ogrforum.com/...-pilot-for-lionel-f3
thanks and good luck!
-Mario
CentralFan1976 posted:Rapid Transit Holmes posted:You guys have done it, again! LOS & Co, you're always there just when I need you. The Forum alone is worth thrice the price of a subscription to OGR in gratitude for expensive errors not committed and modification techniques that make O Gauge Railroading as close to prototype as currently possible.
3RS is highly addictive and have been converting everything MILW-UP-CGW, etc. Now, the planets and eBay have finally aligned to grant me one of my heart's desires: "mint" Lionel F3s with TMCC and magne-traction in prototypical (non-flaming) Milwaukee Road colors. I had a set of flamers back in the '70's but sold them off - the "flames" were a serious turn-off. Now, I prepare to make my first covered wagon conversion with fear and trembling. Thanks for the guidance!
There’s no fear here!
The Lionel F3s are some of the easiest to convert.
Check out: Lowering Lionel F3s; https://ogrforum.com/.../lowering-lionel-f3s
For the Lionel F3s, once you lower them, the pilot should match up to the body curves. What they did in the design to swing the pilot, was to slice the blueprint at the rivet line and raise her up. In general, I’ve found that MTH removes the piece from the blueprint to make their gap and thats what needs to be filled, and I think K-Line did the same.
If you’re going to use the P&D passenger pilot, this may be helpful: https://ogrforum.com/...-pilot-for-lionel-f3
thanks and good luck!
-Mario
Mario,
According to my web based research, the Milwaukee had only 4 four unit sets of F3s, 80ABCD through 83ABCD. All their F3As had what I believe you are referring to as "freight pilots".
The units I've bought are 6-18138 (A unit) and 6-18139 (B unit) comprising the set 6-18140. The A unit is equipped with Pullmore motors, not cans, therefore, the issues may be different from those discussed above and in the articles linked. I have only my memories of those 1970's "flamers" and online photos of Pullmore F3s to work from, now, but it would appear that the motors are much larger and are mounted differently than the cans. The pilots appear to be solid diecast, therefore, I believe that I'll be making spacers rather than lowering carbodies. Do you or your cohorts have any experience lowering carbodies over Pullmore motors? Enquiring minds want to know!
I agree with your complaints about MTH and would buy Lionel except they seldom make the models I want in the colors I crave. The other advantage MTH has over Lionel is the fact that rubber tired wheel and axle sets can be replaced with solid wheel sets on most Premier diesel engines. I'm phobic about rubber tires, hence my purchase of Lionel locomotives with "magne-traction" instead of later versions.
The next challenge will come when my CGW units arrive from MTH in the spring. Thanks to your collective sage advice, I've already ordered "passenger" pilots from Lionel and they've already shipped. I presume that I'll be using my spacer shaping skills gained on the MILW units.
I'm ordering your Lionel O scale EMD F3/F7 Coupler Mounts, parts A and B, for both sets of engines and I already have a variety of your Kadee spacers on hand. Is there anything else I should order?
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Lots of great detailed information and photos here. Thanks to all. Really nice job on those K Line F units, I have some in B & O that I haven't taken out and run in many years, now I am motivated to make them the first guinea pigs for surgery.
Rapid Transit Holmes posted:CentralFan1976 posted:Rapid Transit Holmes posted:You guys have done it, again! LOS & Co, you're always there just when I need you. The Forum alone is worth thrice the price of a subscription to OGR in gratitude for expensive errors not committed and modification techniques that make O Gauge Railroading as close to prototype as currently possible.
3RS is highly addictive and have been converting everything MILW-UP-CGW, etc. Now, the planets and eBay have finally aligned to grant me one of my heart's desires: "mint" Lionel F3s with TMCC and magne-traction in prototypical (non-flaming) Milwaukee Road colors. I had a set of flamers back in the '70's but sold them off - the "flames" were a serious turn-off. Now, I prepare to make my first covered wagon conversion with fear and trembling. Thanks for the guidance!
There’s no fear here!
The Lionel F3s are some of the easiest to convert.
Check out: Lowering Lionel F3s; https://ogrforum.com/.../lowering-lionel-f3s
For the Lionel F3s, once you lower them, the pilot should match up to the body curves. What they did in the design to swing the pilot, was to slice the blueprint at the rivet line and raise her up. In general, I’ve found that MTH removes the piece from the blueprint to make their gap and thats what needs to be filled, and I think K-Line did the same.
If you’re going to use the P&D passenger pilot, this may be helpful: https://ogrforum.com/...-pilot-for-lionel-f3
thanks and good luck!
-Mario
Mario,
According to my web based research, the Milwaukee had only 4 four unit sets of F3s, 80ABCD through 83ABCD. All their F3As had what I believe you are referring to as "freight pilots".
The units I've bought are 6-18138 (A unit) and 6-18139 (B unit) comprising the set 6-18140. The A
unit is equipped with Pullmore motors, not cans, therefore, the issues may be different from those discussed above and in the articles linked. I have only my memories of those 1970's "flamers" and online photos of Pullmore F3s to work from, now, but it would appear that the motors are much larger and are mounted differently than the cans. The pilots appear to be solid diecast, therefore, I believe that I'll be making spacers rather than lowering carbodies. Do you or your cohorts have any experience lowering carbodies over Pullmore motors? Enquiring minds want to know!
I agree with your complaints about MTH and would buy Lionel except they seldom make the models I want in the colors I crave. The other advantage MTH has over Lionel is the fact that rubber tired wheel and axle sets can be replaced with solid wheel sets on most Premier diesel engines. I'm phobic about rubber tires, hence my purchase of Lionel locomotives with "magne-traction" instead of later versions.
The next challenge will come when my CGW units arrive from MTH in the spring. Thanks to your collective sage advice, I've already ordered "passenger" pilots from Lionel and they've already shipped. I presume that I'll be using my spacer shaping skills gained on the MILW units.I'm ordering your Lionel O scale EMD F3/F7 Coupler Mounts, parts A and B, for both sets of engines and I already have a variety of your Kadee spacers on hand. Is there anything else I should order?
Hi, RTH!
They sure are some good looking units.
From what I can tell, they had the passenger (straight) pilots in this scheme.
I haven't played around with lowering the Pulmor-equipped units, so I can't offer anything there. I'm sorry.
For the MTH units, the inspiration for my work with the P&D pilots came from John Sethian's work with his MTH F7s. There's some instructions floating around here somewhere.
I modeled my pilot doors open because I didn't feel like modifying the doors to fit the smaller opening.
I'll actually be doing this again (someday) on another 1606, as I have a second set and want to have two powered A units, and this will become the trailing A #1607. I'll have to remove the Protocraft and put the Kadee back in, though.
The A & B parts are for the coupler carrier on the rear of the A's and both ends of the B's.
Thanks!
Mario,
Thanks! Now I know the difference between passenger and freight pilots! 40 years of railroading and I find out on the OGR Forum. Who knew? My only experience with F units was as a Brakeman on the CNW, weekends, when Fs from commuter trains were assigned to freight trains. We'd usually start with about 4 units and creep into our terminal with only 2 still on line. I was sometimes assigned to sit in the cab of a trailing unit to push the ground reset every time the unit dropped out. Climbing those side ladders and walking between units was an adventure. Fs are nice to look at but that's about it.
Lionel, which is usually good about parts diagrams, has nothing for the powered A unit or non-powered B. However, there is a page and also a diagram on their website for an non-powered A (6-14562) listed in the 2002 catalog, four years after the original set was listed in 1998. Strange.
This is industrial archaeology at its finest, just like tracing long abandoned rail lines! Raiders of the Lost A Unit, Indiana Holmes at your service. Nobody has more fun than us!
