Use of Kadee Couplers Information

You should have a dummy claw coupler with your Steam engines that goes on the front pilot. that will hook to your lead engine tender.

The kadees are stronger and won’t open under load.
The lobster claws don’t really have a redeeming quality, other than “that’s how it’s always been done”.

@clem k posted:

You should have a dummy claw coupler with your Steam engines that goes on the front pilot. that will hook to your lead engine tender.

Yeah I have that setup now. I'm considering going Kadee so it cleans the look up a little bit.

I wish that Kadees were the the standard coupler instead of the lobster claws.

Did you try to hook a Kadee to the scale looking coupler that comes installed ?   You might luck out, that happened to me with a pair of Lionel Mohawks.

I have converted pretty much everything to Kadee. I routinely doublehead steamers. The road I model rostered smaller steamers and it was routinely done. Never had an issue with Legacy steamers and you shouldn’t have any issues with MTH using DCS. The speed matches so close there is never really a strain on the couplers. Even when something goes amiss. I’ve never had a coupler come apart.
If your engine is ready to go as far as the tender with holes ready. It just should be a matter of removing the coil coupler and installing a Kadee with the appropriate shim. Otherwise you will need to make up some sort of bracket to mount it. I have some brackets that should work after you drill a couple holes. I generally make a T shaped bracket out of brass. Check out some of Norm C’s videos on brackets he’s made using a 3D printer. All the Lionel steamers I’ve done. The front coupler ends up pretty close to the Kadee height gauge. You can adjust the coupler on the tender as needed with shims to get a match. Really can’t do anything with the front as the shank fit’s pretty snug in the box.

I run Kadee 805’s on pretty much everything. I’ve used Kadee’s on the pilots. You have to drill a hole to accept the mounting screw on the pilot. Not a lot of room for error as the shank is not very wide. On some applications. I’ve notched the coupler a bit just to give it more travel. There’s a bit of cutting and filing involved after drilling to get the depth correct and getting it to pivot properly. I run minimum 072 curves. What I did find. Atlas makes a replacement coupler that looks very much like a Kadee 805. They sell it’s a replacement for the crappy ones that come on their 2 rail cars. You get 4 in a package [couplers only] and use the stock box. What it gives you is a coupler with a little bit wider shank and a little more length which helps in some cases.

I totally agree on looks.

@clem k posted:

Did you try to hook a Kadee to the scale looking coupler that comes installed ?   You might luck out, that happened to me with a pair of Lionel Mohawks.

I haven't tried it yet because it will take some machining to install the Kadee in place of the electric coupler. So I want to get more information before I commit to this project.

@Dave_C posted:

I have converted pretty much everything to Kadee. I routinely doublehead steamers. The road I model rostered smaller steamers and it was routinely done. Never had an issue with Legacy steamers and you shouldn’t have any issues with MTH using DCS. The speed matches so close there is never really a strain on the couplers. Even when something goes amiss. I’ve never had a coupler come apart.
If your engine is ready to go as far as the tender with holes ready. It just should be a matter of removing the coil coupler and installing a Kadee with the appropriate shim. Otherwise you will need to make up some sort of bracket to mount it. I have some brackets that should work after you drill a couple holes. I generally make a T shaped bracket out of brass. Check out some of Norm C’s videos on brackets he’s made using a 3D printer. All the Lionel steamers I’ve done. The front coupler ends up pretty close to the Kadee height gauge. You can adjust the coupler on the tender as needed with shims to get a match. Really can’t do anything with the front as the shank fit’s pretty snug in the box.

I run Kadee 805’s on pretty much everything. I’ve used Kadee’s on the pilots. You have to drill a hole to accept the mounting screw on the pilot. Not a lot of room for error as the shank is not very wide. On some applications. I’ve notched the coupler a bit just to give it more travel. There’s a bit of cutting and filing involved after drilling to get the depth correct and getting it to pivot properly. I run minimum 072 curves. What I did find. Atlas makes a replacement coupler that looks very much like a Kadee 805. They sell it’s a replacement for the crappy ones that come on their 2 rail cars. You get 4 in a package [couplers only] and use the stock box. What it gives you is a coupler with a little bit wider shank and a little more length which helps in some cases.

I totally agree on looks.

Thank you very much for all that information. Would you happen to have that Atlas part number for those couplers that are the replacement for the 2 rail cars?

I don't have access to a 3D printer like Norm, he does some beautiful work though.

Not knowing what your tender looks like. Every one I have done requires some sort of an offset mount. You need to mount the coupler to the steel chassis and most times where you need to put one of the mounting screws is right where the diecast tender shell is as the chassis sits inside the shell. You can sometimes cheat and use the longer shanked Kadee to get around this. But then you run the risk of the box interfering with the truck.

If you run into an issue. I have some ready made mounts I picked up from Weaver years ago for mounting the coupler on the tender.

@Dave_C posted:

Not knowing what your tender looks like. Every one I have done requires some sort of an offset mount. You need to mount the coupler to the steel chassis and most times where you need to put one of the mounting screws is right where the diecast tender shell is as the chassis sits inside the shell. You can sometimes cheat and use the longer shanked Kadee to get around this. But then you run the risk of the box interfering with the truck.

If you run into an issue. I have some ready made mounts I picked up from Weaver years ago for mounting the coupler on the tender.

Thank you for that information again Dave. Can I buy 1 of those Weaver mounts from you? My contact information is in my profile. You call/text or email Mr.

Shane

@harley rider posted:

I wish that Kadees were the the standard coupler instead of the lobster claws.

I wholeheartedly agree!

@Dave_C I noticed the Atlas couplers you mentioned are die cast. Has there ever been any zinc pest issues with these couplers?

I am a big fan of your layout. It's definitely one of the best layouts I have seen. I use a picture of it as the background on my iPad.

Phil, I don’t even know how popular they are. I think most opt just to switch out everything to a Kadee. The Atlas box is not user friendly that you have to save intact with disassembly  and I don’t think the newer models changed over.
I had a surplus of the adjustacouplers that use to come in the box. Truth be told. I put them on one end of 2 cars just to try. Was impressed as to the looks and ease of coupling building a train. They actually got me started  on converting to Kadee’s. I needed a coupler to try on a steamer. They just didn’t look good with those 2 huge couplers.  The Atlas seemed a little more forgiving as far as width and the shank was a little longer as far as material. Not by much. After you drill the hole for the screw. There’s not a lot of metal left over if you want it to pivot properly.  I gave them a shot and they worked okay. When Atlas came out with the Kadee lookalike. I switched over to them. They come as a 4 pack and seeing I was only putting them on steamers. I didn’t need the coupler box. So far. So good as far as reliability with them.

@Hudson J1e posted:

I wholeheartedly agree!

@Dave_C I noticed the Atlas couplers you mentioned are die cast. Has there ever been any zinc pest issues with these couplers?

I don't know if the cause was "zinc pest" but, I had so many of those darned Atlas scale couplers break, that I added the broken off coupler heads as scenery in the freight yard. I got so fed up with them, I changed every Atlas freight car to Kadee #805 body mounted.

Here's my next question for everyone. Maybe this is more of an opinion.

What style Kadee coupler is best? I see they have "Standard" and type "E". I'm running pretty much all steam locomotives from the late 40's, Berkshires (what I'm mounting to my couplers to first), hudsons, Niagara's, etc.

@BigS06 posted:

Here's my next question for everyone. Maybe this is more of an opinion.

What style Kadee coupler is best? I see they have "Standard" and type "E". I'm running pretty much all steam locomotives from the late 40's, Berkshires (what I'm mounting to my couplers to first), hudsons, Niagara's, etc.

I’ve gone over to the dark side too, …..pretty much using 740’s & the short box 743’s exclusively,……So far, no problems swapping everything over,…..All the locomotives currently on the layout have been swapped, as most of the passenger cars, …..freight cars, I said fooey on, and started buying 2 rail scale cars, already done, and selling off the 3 rail cars I’m not really worried about, …..Milk cars, and reefers I want to keep will get the treatment….once you’re an addict, you can’t turn back, or unsee a huge crab claw,…….the bug bit me bad, there’s no going back…..

Pat

@Dave_C Thank you very much for the information. I now understand how these couplers can be used for steam engines but I also understand their intended purpose.

@Hot Water I have broken some of those original Atlas couplers myself. They just exploded under the weight of a train which wasn't all that long. I believe those original couplers were plastic. I still have some Atlas cars with those plastic couplers. I am wondering if it would be a good idea to try these new Atlas couplers in those older Atlas cars. I assume newer Atlas 2 rail cars come from the factory with the die cast coupler? On the plus side it would be cheaper than installing Kadees because I would be reusing the Atlas box but on the down side it isn't fun taking those Atlas coupler boxes apart.

@Hudson J1e posted:

@Dave_C Thank you very much for the information. I now understand how these couplers can be used for steam engines but I also understand their intended purpose.

@Hot Water I have broken some of those original Atlas couplers myself. They just exploded under the weight of a train which wasn't all that long. I believe those original couplers were plastic. I still have some Atlas cars with those plastic couplers. I am wondering if it would be a good idea to try these new Atlas couplers in those older Atlas cars. I assume newer Atlas 2 rail cars come from the factory with the die cast coupler? On the plus side it would be cheaper than installing Kadees because I would be reusing the Atlas box but on the down side it isn't fun taking those Atlas coupler boxes apart.

All the Atlas couplers that I had that broke, were all some sort of metal, i.e. NOT "plastic".

Kadee couplers...

My first exposure to them was in 1975; I was doing HO and found (at an antique show) a Train Miniature "Land O Lakes" reefer, equipped with Kadees. Suddenly my other trains (Athearn, Tyco, etc.) looked like "toys", whereas this looked like a "model". That was it for me; I've used Kadees (or sister Micro Trains) couplers in every scale, ever since. Never had one (metal or plastic) break.

I will add here that I sometimes have used the plastic Weaver coupler, and have had good luck with them as well...

Mark in Oregon (the home of KD and MTL)

Great information, guys!! I too, have become a Kadee fan!!! Which uncoupling magnets do you guys recommend?? I'm building my new layout and I plan to install them next to my conventional (lobster claw) uncouplers.. If this is considered 'hijacking' the the thread, my apologies and I'll delete the question.. TIA

@Hot Water posted:

All the Atlas couplers that I had that broke, were all some sort of metal, i.e. NOT "plastic".

Well, I am talking about the couplers Atlas used on the first 2 rail cars they made since the '70s which were produced in the late '90s. It looked and felt like plastic to me. When it broke the inside of the coupler was the same color as the outside. So many people complained that they did change the coupler to different one in the early 2000s. I think around 2005. Perhaps this is when they went to the die cast coupler you are talking about.

@Hudson J1e posted:

Well, I am talking about the couplers Atlas used on the first 2 rail cars they made since the '70s which were produced in the late '90s. It looked and felt like plastic to me. When it broke the inside of the coupler was the same color as the outside. So many people complained that they did change the coupler to different one in the early 2000s. I think around 2005. Perhaps this is when they went to the die cast coupler you are talking about.

Oh, those things!

Mark in Oregon

Woodson, I use the Kadee magnets with a little modification. Only because when I started on this venture I was dealing with ballasted Gargraves.  A friend did his this way. Kadee gives you a metal plate and 4 magnets. It’s really goes back to the old Lionel tubular. You can go this route with Gargraves. But you will have to cut out some ties. I cut the provided metal plate into strips the width and length of the magnet. If you can find a good quality metal the correct width and thickness. It’s much easier. A few drops of a thick CA will hold the magnet on the strip. I only use One magnet on each side of the center rail. You will need to now glue the metal side to the ties. I think I used Walthers Goo for this. You need some temporary wood shims on either side during the install to keep everything spaced off the rails. Rig up a weight to hold everything in place till the glue dries.

My advice is sacrifice a piece of scrap track and some magnets and do some research and  try a few methods before you commit. Some have had good results with neo magnets.

On to the couplers. Kadee gives you extensive instructions on burnishing and adding graphite powder. Most don’t follow these. Myself included. But when your working with magnets. It does help. The smoother they move back and forth. The better they work. I use 805’s. The older versions to me seem to work better. Maybe the compound of the metal is slightly different. It’s a fine line on adjusting the trip pin. It has to be very close to the center rail but not touching. Kadee’s height gauge can be used to set the height. You can’t have sharp transitions in grades or you risk the pin contacting the center rail. I’m old school and prefer everything metal. There’s a reason they sell the couplers with the plastic boxes. With a die cast chassis and basically the outside rail feeding it through the wheels in a roundabout way.  Not a great connection. But still a connection at times. Guess what happens if the trip pin touches the center rail. If you have a sensitive breaker it trips. Now you have to find the car. It’s usually not to hard. The coupler that just flops from side to side. No centering. If you take the coupler apart. Usually the brass spring takes the hit of current and you will find it shriveled up. Most that aren’t interested in using the magnets either bend it up or snip it off for this reason.
I have a few placed and they work pretty good. They always seem to uncouple reliably. The delayed action of pushing a car in a siding sometimes is an issue. I generally use an uncoupling tool of some sort. The lower right of the pic.  shows a couple in place.

Thanks for the information, Dave.. So far, I've had good success with 805s also.. I use the graphite powder and have 'burnished' the couplers when needed..  A few times I've run a file across the face of the coupler box too.. I use the Kadee height gauge to get the correct coupler height!! My biggest problem is that my hands don't work as well as they once did.. lol I'm using Gargraves track so I'll experiment with the magnets and their height and spacing requirements.. What kind of "uncoupling tool" do you use? Thanks again!!!

I bought one from Micromark. Kind of pricey but I’m not outfitting an operating crew. It’s soft and somewhat flexible. It shouldn’t scratch anything. My problem was always seeing what I was doing. It features a light that shines directly on what your doing.

I probably tried most of the make your own ones. I’ve used plastic model kit sprues with a ground down slotted bit look and something for a knob. If you watch a lot of videos on HO operating sessions you will get all kinds of ideas.

A word of caution:

Some steam locomotive pilots are not structurally suited for pulling. Make sure you have a way of connecting the coupler to the locomotive frame. With the brass engines I have, the pilot coupler is just connected to the pilot, but not to what I would consider load-bearing. MTH pilots are die-cast and pretty solid -- solid enough that MTH includes a hi-rail pilot coupler for double-heading.

Dave C pretty much described things well. Here's a thread from a while back when I set up my Legacy K4s for doubleheading:

https://ogrforum.com/...gacy-k4-doubleheader

There's a pic of the modified Kadee 740 in there. I use my Sher Line mini mill for drilling stuff like that these days.

I bought one from Micromark. Kind of pricey but I’m not outfitting an operating crew. It’s soft and somewhat flexible. It shouldn’t scratch anything. My problem was always seeing what I was doing. It features a light that shines directly on what your doing.

That looks like the ticket.. I'm surprised I didn't see it myself (no pun intended)!! I ordered one!! Thanks again, Dave!! This Forum is great!!!!

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Dave C pretty much described things well. Here's a thread from a while back when I set up my Legacy K4s for doubleheading:

https://ogrforum.com/...gacy-k4-doubleheader

There's a pic of the modified Kadee 740 in there. I use my Sher Line mini mill for drilling stuff like that these days.

Pretty much had to do the same trick to double head some Hudsons, only caveat was having to hog out MTH’s some what of a draft box to make it have some pivot…..this’ll be the only one that can double head, ……wasn’t like it was common practice on passenger assignments on the Central Proper……but it did happen on occasion…

Pat

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Dave C pretty much described things well. Here's a thread from a while back when I set up my Legacy K4s for doubleheading:

https://ogrforum.com/...gacy-k4-doubleheader

There's a pic of the modified Kadee 740 in there. I use my Sher Line mini mill for drilling stuff like that these days.

Norm I know you use plastic Kadee mounts. Is there anything I need to be concerned about if I use metal/brass Kadee mounts on a locomotive? Like an electrical short?

@BigS06 posted:

Norm I know you use plastic Kadee mounts. Is there anything I need to be concerned about if I use metal/brass Kadee mounts on a locomotive? Like an electrical short?

Being in 3-Rail, there is no danger of electrical contact/shorts between equipment, as the underframes of the locomotives and rolling stock are not "energized". I always used the Kadee metal gear boxes, as I didn't care for the flexibility of the plastic gear boxes, which tended to have the cover plate bend under tightening of the mounting screws.

Shorts aren't too much of concern other than the coupler contacting the center rail and smoking the springs out.

Keep in mind if you are adding a Kadee to a 3rd Rail tender that didn't have one, and the tender is 'floated' for the TMCC antenna you'll need to be very careful that the Kadee doesn't ground the antenna. If you inspect the tender and find the wheels are insulated along with the drawbar you have yourself a full-bodied style 3rd Rail TMCC antenna. You may want to make sure that your coupler doesn't become part of this antenna. You should notice that that the 3 rail coupler is mounted with insulators too so that's another clue that the tender shell, frame, axles and truck sideframes are all antenna meat. If you have rolling stock with metal frame-mounted Kadees and you're not careful about isolating the tender Kadee on one of these setups, you could ground the TMCC antenna through the train. Grounding the antenna may result in degraded performance or the engine going into conventional mode. I'm sure you could imagine the R2LC wouldn't be too happy about getting its antenna connected to the center rail in the event of a derailment!

Excellent post Norm. As mentioned in most applications the big danger is the trip pin contacting the center rail. You have options. One is use a plastic gearbox that isolates the coupler. If you prefer the metal box. You can always use an insulated shim and plastic screws. Or Just make sure you proprely adjust the pin. If you flip the Kadee height gauge around. There’s a piece of the casting that the pin is suppose to ride up over. Properly adjusted I think it’s only above it by 1/16 of an inch. It can come into play with long passenger cars and probably the new auto racks when transitioning into a grade. Unless you plan on using magnets at some point doing switching moves. Your best off just removing them by cutting them off under the coupler head.