Using AF for my goals

It sounds to me like you may be interested in Scale S gauge, not High Rail or AF. Scale is currently available from MTH and American Models and formerly S-Helper. Take a look on eBay.

American Models:

http://www.americanmodels.com/

MTH has been trickling out some of the former S Helper Service products.  The loooooong awaited F3's at last report are due this fall:

http://mthtrains.com/sites/def...uge/html5/index.html

Both companies offer their products with as either Flyer compatible or with scale wheels.

Rusty

Thx guys.  But like I said I cannot afford new and other stuff, hence the question regarding AF stuff, details, etc.  Any chance anyone has an S scale model vs. AF model pic of the same thing to compare them?

I took a quick look on eBay and did not see much reasonable except for old AF stuff.  Maybe my cost expectations are out of whack.  Maybe O would have more used for less money?

If you have not seen my other threads, I do prefer steam and not modern if that helps.  I will also have to select between narrow and standard gauge once I select a scale, although the two decision points might be related (as to equipment available, track available, etc).

There is a great debate about how to qualify S gauge trains. "AF" or "American Flyer" can be the more toy-like trains that A.C. Gilbert produced until 1965 or the reruns that Lionel is producing under the American Flyer name. Lionel has two segments. One segment they call "traditional" that includes engines and rolling stock very similar to A.C. Gilbert but with better rolling characteristics, and another segment they call "scale" that includes very highly detailed engines and a cylindrical hopper. The Lionel "scale" engines come with the large toy-like couplers and wheels with deep flanges that work best with rail larger than would be prototypical. The engines do allow a user to change the huge couplers for more scale-sized couplers such as the Kadee 802 (black), Kadee 808 (brown), or MTH scale couplers at the user's expense. There is the option of buying scale wheelsets for the diesels, but the steam locomotives require a big expense to change from what are "high-rail" wheels to scale wheels. The Lionel hoppers are nice, but they sit too high on either scale or high-rail wheels. (It's a long and sad story. There are details on this forum. A search on "post-mortem" can bring up the pitiful details.)

There is another camp known as "high-rail" that uses the taller rail with deeper flanged wheels. The deeper flanges reduce the chances of derailing on less-than-perfect track and can also accommodate the older A.C. Gilbert models. The high-rail camp can be a gray area in that some rolling stock can be extremely well detailed with scale couplers added at a little extra expense or can also be well-detailed models with the large couplers for compatibility with American Flyer engines and cars. This in-between stage is a choice some modelers make who want to run both the old American Flyer models, the latest American Flyer models from Lionel, or the well-detailed models from American Models, MTH, and S Scale America.  For AM and MTH products a user must specify "high-rail" or "scale" to get the correct wheels; the bodies of the cars are the same well-detailed models. S Scale America rolling stock models sold by Des Plaines Hobbies and some distributors include both high-rail and scale wheels sets (excepting the stack well car for which a buyer must specify the size). For all three suppliers the trucks allow the swapping of high-rail or scale wheelsets fairly easily in all cases except the two American Models steam locomotives. All of these models have superb rolling characteristics with either type of wheel and the appropriate track.

The scale camp tries to maintain prototypical accuracy with smaller rail, smaller and realistically flanged wheels, and very precise details. Scale locomotives and rolling stock can generally run on high-rail track, but there are only a few limited switches that will allow them to pass through without derailing. High-rail models or the "traditional" models have the same problem with scale switches--they derail at the frog point. They also often have problems with the flanges being so deep that the flanges run on the ties and bounce along scale track.

If details are important, the Lionel American Flyer Legacy locomotives are excellent. The same is true for any of the American Models, MTH, or S Scale America products. The latter three give you the choice of high-rail or scale wheels. In all cases you have the choice of buying your own scale sized couplers for more prototypical appearance. You may also have to buy coupler pads to put under rolling stock trucks to keep the height that would be missing once you remove the large American Flyer style couplers (often called "lobster claws").

S Gauge produce has come a long way since A.C. Gilbert. Today's products can often be confused with far more expensive brass models. They are larger than H.O. and allow a lot of detail to be added by a modeler without straining old eyes. They are smaller than O gauge and allow a lot more scenery and track in small spaces. If you decide to go the S gauge route, the chief decision is to decide whether you want to go the traditional American Flyer route with deeply flanged wheels and oversized couplers, go the scale route for the highest modeling accuracy, or make a compromise with the higher rail, deeper wheel flanges, and scale sized couplers. Whichever decision you make, you'll find the S gauge community to very welcoming and helpful. (Maybe 'cause we're smaller.)

Almost seems like your answering your own question because of your interest in finer detail.  Gilbert AF is state-of-the-art 60 or more years ago and were made to be durable enough as toys for boys.  The Flyonel reissues haven't changed much except for changes to the trucks.  The detail and fidelity you find on today's models wasn't there then or had to be dumbed down to make it affordable and durable.  Similar today with the new Flyonel steamer that has a lot better detail but is not to the same fine detail of their steam engines over the last decade or so.  Still a little spendy, but not as much as other steam engines or the modern diesels. 

Is the other choice two or three rail O?  Well if fidelity is a concern, forget three rail and I have no idea what the new and used market for O two rail is.

Look at American Models (AM):  www.americanmodels.com.  Mechanisms are simple, easy to understand, easy to add electronics and finer detail to and not horribly expensive.  Trucks side frames are scale whether they have hirail or scale wheels and easy to fit Kadee 802s to the freight cars.  Their Pacific is light on detail but is a great runner.  Their Northern is much more detailed and a great runner and more expensive.  Otherwise light on steam engines but have a good selection of transition era diesels.  Freight car detail is average to good and easy to upgrade.  Maybe a mix of vintage AF steam engines and AM rolling stock is your answer if you choose S.  Sounds like you might be handy or skilled enough to swap out trucks and wheels except for the drivers, whose flanges and tires are not too far out of scale.

Ben Trousdale

Thx guys,.

Ben, for O I am not looking at 3 rail, 2 rail only.  Yeah you are probably right on the detail stuff - I look at the older AF stuff and it does look like a toy.  While in no way will I ever convince my wife these are not toys (!) those definitely have a retro toy look I do not like so much.

If you have not seen my other threads/posts, one of my goals is an outdoor layout.

https://ogrforum.com/topic/hello-5

If you consider that do you think your combo recommendation above would work?  I think I would still need to use hi rail?  unless one does not think hi rail would make a difference outside?  i have had opinions given both ways.

Yes, I am mechanically and electrically inclined so would not foresee any issues with changing/upgrading things.

Appreciate the replies.

Here AM's GP9's vs a Gilbert Flyer GP7.  Lionel's Flyer GP is basically the same with better decorations and drives:

Not quite side by side, Lionel/Flyer PA's and AM PA's:

And from the upper end of the spectrum, the Lionel/Flyer SD70ACe vs. a River Raisin brass SD9:

Rusty

Rusty,

That is awesome - thx!  No chance you have similar steam locos to compare?

To my yet untrained eye I do not see much detail difference.  Can you guys tell me what you see?

Helmut,

AM track is hybrid scale hi-rail.  It has a scale look but the rail is tall enough to accommodate hi-rail wheels with their deep flanges.  The ties are intentionally a bid uneven that gives it a good look.  They offer it sectional and flex and has RTR switches that are not too sharp.  The switches are more reliable with hi-rail wheels.  Its negative is that the rail is brass which tarnishes easily - maybe not so good for garden application unless you pursue the battery power idea.  Flyonel and MTH have sectional track on rigid plastic roadbed and switch tracks with sharp turns to match old AF track.  MTH also has flex that is not on a roadbed.  There used to be (is) an outfit called American HiRail (?) that made (makes) an even taller rail track.  Don't know if they have switches.  There is also Gargraves, but it's quite toy like.

If you buy AM diesel locomotives with the DC option the innards are motor, flywheel(s), wires, LEDs with small circuit boards.  No expensive electronics - you can provide your own.  There is a local guy in the Twin Cities area who is experimenting around with the battery powered locomotives in S operated either by RC or digital signal packets on the rail.  It's quite doable in S.

Ben Trousdale

Be careful what you ask for :

Gilbert 21085 4-6-2 Pacific:

Gilbert 312 Pennsylvania K5 Pacific:

American Models Pacific - unmodified:

Lionel/Flyer Pacific:

Apples and Oranges - Lionel/Flyer Challenger vs. AM Northern:

And a locomotive that has no comparison.  Possibly the finest steam locomotive out of the Lionel/Flyer shops, the N&W Y3:

Rusty

Rusty - I owe you something, just not sure what yet!  Those pics are very much appreciated!  I will say I would probably never get the Y3 as it does not fit the 'simulation I want', but it looks good enough I might need to find myself an excuse. 

Ben, nice - and encouraging.  I will check the electronics I am hoping to use for sizes and I am definitely wanting to run dead rails.

I imagine to start I can even purchase an old used AF loco to get my parts and pieces for batteries and electronic boards selected and tested?  Are they close enough to the newer items as far as dc motor wiring and internal space?  Or am I hoping for too much?

Helmut,

The AM steam locomotives are also rather simple - kind of used the Gilbert AF model of motor in the fire box area and mechanical chuff by piston driven by a gear off of the worm gear.  AM uses internal gears to transfer power to the forward drivers whereas AF relied on the side rods.  I like that about the old AF steamers.  AM DC option, again, has wires, flywheels and motor without electronics.  Flyonel steam (and diesels) engines come loaded with the electronics for their proprietary control systems.  You'll be paying for that only to rip it all out.  For this reason I recommended using old AF steamers.  You can even get retrofit can motors for them that fit in place of the old open frame motors.  They'll use a lot less power that way.

The Y-3 is quite sweet.  I have one that was converted to scale by a third party.  The same guy also modified the programming of the electronics to work with DCC.

Ben Trousdale

You'll want to put the battery pack in the tenders of the Gilbert AF steamers.  All power for their steam locomotives come through tender pick up wheels.  Don't know about the receiver.  Probably also in the tender.  Shell space is tight in the smaller steamer (Atlantics was all I ever had) shells.  AF moved the reversing unit from tender to boiler and/or vice-versa.  Depending upon where the reversing unit was dictated the number of wires running from tender to locomotive.  All of that is easy to modify.

I recommend going to local flea markets if you're in the US.  Around here there is usually a good supply of old AF - not so sure about other regions.

Ben Trousdale

Ben, thx again.

On the Y3, what does converted to scale mean?  wheels and couplers?  or are there inaccuracy issues with the AF model?

I understand on the ripping out the AF electronics.  I am guessing they do not make 'barebones' editions?

but you made an interesting statement: the Y3 electronics were modified to work with DCC?  Sounds interesting, I wonder if it can be taken as far as adding wireless to that?  If so, it would be the less expensive way to go if the electronics coming with the new Flyonel (did I get that right? newer AF models done by Lionel) stuff is adequate.

But back on the older AF stuff: is that Gilbert as well?  Are they adequate enough models to not look like toys?  Or were you referring to my test mule I mentioned?

I looked at the American Models track - they are expensive compared to the other options I have found.  I have been planning to use mostly flex track, but I have yet to explore that.  The other manufacturers are Tomalco and Scenery Unlimited.

IMO, I would not try to run S gauge outside with scale wheels. And for steam, you will be really limited in product offering if you go with scale wheels, as Lionel does not offer steam engines with scale wheels. In the cost category, you will never find a new scale sized Northern steam locomotive in O gauge for $500, as you can with American Models. In O gauge, for the most part, you will find the budget trains to be traditional O gauge, that is under sized. IMO, this is even less desirable than low fidelity S gauge trains that are at least scale size.

I have some of the older A.F. by AC Gilbert and they run very well for being old. To me the newer stuff in S Scale doesn't interest me that much. Mainly I have bough some of the newer freight cars in S scale.

Track can get expensive in S scale, depending on what you want for track. Gargraves makes S scale track and switches, I have some Gargraves track in S scale but no switches. I am using the older A.F. switches.

I have the older A.F. track that uses 42 inch curves, have some rubber track pieces to fit under the old A.F. track to make it look better.

I have not got into command control in S scale, but know that you may find it crowded inside some of the steam engine's tenders to put in any electronics.

Lee Fritz

hlfritz posted:

Ben, thx again.

On the Y3, what does converted to scale mean?  wheels and couplers?  or are there inaccuracy issues with the AF model?

Fred Rouse of S Scale Locomotive and Supply did scale wheel conversions for the Y3.  He has since sold the company, but is still doing conversions as long as his parts supply lasts.  Detail-wise, there's nothing wrong with the Y3.

I understand on the ripping out the AF electronics.  I am guessing they do not make 'barebones' editions?

Correct.

but you made an interesting statement: the Y3 electronics were modified to work with DCC?  Sounds interesting,

Fred was allowed by Lionel to upgrade the code (for a fee) in the Y3 to include DCC compatibility whan doing the conversion.

I wonder if it can be taken as far as adding wireless to that?  If so, it would be the less expensive way to go if the electronics coming with the new Flyonel (did I get that right? newer AF models done by Lionel) stuff is adequate.

The Lionel/Flyer SD70's and ES44's (and I think some of the newer Legacy traditional Flyer) is DCC compatible.  The Y3 was released before the DCC code was developed.

But back on the older AF stuff: is that Gilbert as well?  Are they adequate enough models to not look like toys?  Or were you referring to my test mule I mentioned?

Converting old Gilbert to scale is almost as old as S Scale itself.  With a little work, the freight cars clean up nicely.

I looked at the American Models track - they are expensive compared to the other options I have found.  I have been planning to use mostly flex track, but I have yet to explore that.  The other manufacturers are Tomalco and Scenery Unlimited.

Just be aware that Tomalco and Scenery Unlimited track is for scale wheel equipment only (in case you're considering HiRail.)

Rusty

After reading all of the concerns you have about cost it might be better for you to consider HO as you can get a lot for your money and there is plenty of product new and used.  To really get into the hobby in S or O you really need to expect to spend almost $20,000 in your first couple of years.

Thx guys.

Roundhouse Bill, Yeah - everything I would probably want could be available in HO, but is that not too small for outdoors?  Many folks are saying they would not do even S or O outside, G only.  So I am not sure about HO being viable.  I do have a source or two that have done it though.  Atlas says their track is OK for outside use.  So from that aspect is is doable, and there is far more HO stuff available.  But beyond just the general derailment-while-running-due-to-any-little-bit-on-the-tracks and trying to keep the track clear of very small debris, HO might just be too small to have visibility outdoors as well?

Mark,

while that loco is pretty attractive, it is not what I am after.  I am hoping that smaller locos are available in standard gauge.  I hope to reasonable simulate operations on a (fiction?) railroad that is modeled after a prototype.  The below post is about what I am after:

http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=2873

It would be utopia if it can run both modern and steam era and stick to standard gauge, but I do understand there is a difference in accessories (buildings, etc.) as well as locos of the type I would like in standard gauge, so I will see how that goes. I aim to use (and maybe be able to enhance) the open source software jmri, convert the locos and other devices to battery and remote control, be able to use remote accessories (like switches/turnouts, but understand that may not be possible outside), use an android/ios device or pc to control the layout and locos via wireless network (wifi preferrably), and adhere to NMRA DCC standards with the devices.

Thank you Mark.  I do not *necessarilly* need to use those exact locos or the time period they represent.  I am more after the 'feel' of the operations in that article/post.

Heck, I guess I could go total fiction and make up a modern railroad that does those things in the article!

Helmut,

Only readily available inexpensive track is used Gilbert AF.  It's two rail but otherwise not realistic.  Some components are steel and will rust, the insulators separating the rail from metal ties are some sort of paper product that will likely quickly degrade if frequently soaked and turnouts won't tolerate wet weather.  Gargraves used to have steel and stainless steel rail set in very chunky wood ties that may not last outside.  Only real choice is brass/nickel silver rail with plastic ties with of without road bed.  These all cost $$ and are harder to find used.

If you want to dabble while figuring this out, buy some old Flyer track and an old 4-4-2 (Atlantic) pictured above.  They are also plentiful and can be found for cheap. 

Ben Trousdale

Ben,

not a bad idea at all and I have been eyeing some of the cheaper stuff on that big auction site.

I need to get a couple of something S and O so I can handle them and put them in the yard for a sizing exercise.  That in itself might help with some of the decision points.

Thx again, you've been quite helpful.

OK, I have acquired an AF Atlantic.  First step in progress.  I will see if i can find an O scale loco that is similar and cheap as well to experiment with the two.

I will also be doing some reading this weekend on operations and try to decide what I want to model which may help the scale decision as well.

just to kinda close the loop on this dicsussion where a lot of poeple hellped me on this:

https://ogrforum.com/t...98#69707613860767098

Thank you all, and nothing against S scale.  If I was doing indoors I would have gone S.  Rusty, you deserve a special thanks for your pictures here and in other threads.  Thank you sir!

I disagree with needing to spend $20K in the first few years, maybe if your trying to build an empire, but a smaller layout will not need that much outlay at all.  I am doing 2 rail O around the walls of a 8 foot by 9 foot room, and S gauge Polar Express under the tree for next year.  Planning a platform to raise the PE layout up about 2 foot to keep my dogs off of it.  I am using older trains for my 2 rail O scale, mostly diecast engines from All Nation(2 F units, NW2 switcher and working on a deal for one of the 4-4-2 Atlantic kits) along with a mix of All Nation, older Atlas/Roco and Athearn freight cars in both kit form and built up.  All of it has been very cheap.  The most I spend on any single item was just over $200 with shipping for my All Nation F 7 that was beautifully built, detailed and with a custom Central Locomotive Works power chassis in it.  The rest has been $150 or much less.  S scale is beautiful, if I didn't already have 3 nice locomotives, rolling stock and track I might have gone that route.  For me HO isn't an option anymore.  My eye sight isn't going to get any better and my hands are not nearly as steady as they were when I was younger.  While building HO craftsman style kits is very hard for me to do now, O scale is perfect.   I will add the Flyonel Berkshires as a nice mix of Gilbert and scale in terms of size and details.    Mike

Mike,

yeah - I never said that.  i pretty much disagree with that as well.

HO: I agree, I do not think my eyesight is up for that either!

Helmut,

I am totally into S but reading through all these posts and with your wanting closer to scale than toy train or high rail, with lower prices, you might want to look at On3. There is quite a lot of used equipment on EBAY and the prices are not that expensive. Most of the of the rolling stock and locomotives are early steam era. These are also somewhat adaptable to S gauge, in size, if that would be in your sight. The trains run on HO track but with some effort could be re-gauged to S. Much is made by Bachmann and some comes with DCC installed.

Ray