For those who wanted one, it was worth it. And they are terrific locomotives. But don't confuse "BTO" with the return of the collector market or delude yourself into thinking these locomotives will retain or go up in value. BTO is about Lionel managing its capital outlay to get a better gauge of real, money on the table demand before laying out its own capital. MTH basically does the same thing and if that is what the realities of the business require I am fine with it. But don't allow marketers to convince you it is something else.
Ray Lombardo posted:For those who wanted one, it was worth it. And they are terrific locomotives. But don't confuse "BTO" with the return of the collector market or delude yourself into thinking these locomotives will retain or go up in value. BTO is about Lionel managing its capital outlay to get a better gauge of real, money on the table demand before laying out its own capital. MTH basically does the same thing and if that is what the realities of the business require I am fine with it. But don't allow marketers to convince you it is something else.
With respect, you're conflating things. Whether or not this wonderful rendition of the Big Boy turns into a collectible is determined by long-term demand, availability, and other such factors, not Lionel's motive for moving to a BTO paradigm.
Peter
PJB posted:Ray Lombardo posted:For those who wanted one, it was worth it. And they are terrific locomotives. But don't confuse "BTO" with the return of the collector market or delude yourself into thinking these locomotives will retain or go up in value. BTO is about Lionel managing its capital outlay to get a better gauge of real, money on the table demand before laying out its own capital. MTH basically does the same thing and if that is what the realities of the business require I am fine with it. But don't allow marketers to convince you it is something else.
With respect, you're conflating things. Whether or not this wonderful rendition of the Big Boy turns into a collectible is determined by long-term demand, availability, and other such factors, not Lionel's motive for moving to a BTO paradigm.
Peter
With all due respect, Ray is actually 100% correct.
At some point, there will be a new round of Big Boys issued...with newer technology and features. When that happens, the value of last year's round of Big Boys will drop. Significantly.
The drop in value of the JLC Big Boys and Challengers will also occur with the Vision Line ones....at some point.
That doesn't mean you can't enjoy or fall in love with those locomotives....b/c if you have the space, they are fantastic. But don't kid yourself about them retaining their value. Trains are to be enjoyed.....not viewed as investments any longer, IMHO.
Ray Lombardo posted:For those who wanted one, it was worth it. And they are terrific locomotives. But don't confuse "BTO" with the return of the collector market or delude yourself into thinking these locomotives will retain or go up in value. BTO is about Lionel managing its capital outlay to get a better gauge of real, money on the table demand before laying out its own capital. MTH basically does the same thing and if that is what the realities of the business require I am fine with it. But don't allow marketers to convince you it is something else.
And this is the reason I haven't understood why everyone is so up in arms about the Lionel BTO move, MTH has been doing it for years, but without telling you that's what they are doing. When I got into the scale over about a decade ago, I bought an old used RailKing PS-1 Dreyfuss Hudson. While at my local MTH dealer getting rassed for buying that instead of a new PS-2 locomotive, he gave me a copy of the then current MTH catalog. In it was a set of the matching passenger cars. I asked him about ordering it and learned the most valuable lesson about ordering trains then and there, you can only guarantee to get one if you place an order before the cut off date as they only make to order. And as such, he couldn't order me one as it was past the order deadline and they had already shipped. But I might still find one if I called some of the big dealers. I did find the set online and have been happy, but since I have always paid attention to the order deadline and make sure to place an order for what I wanted.
I love my VLBB, and don't regret buying it, I would of bought more if I had the money. And quite frankly, I'd getting tired of how these, "was it worth it" threads always fall into "Lionel's BTO system is lame" discussions. I have 3 locomotives and a small handful of freight cars on order from the BTO list. I love it as I know just how much to save to pay for them, and I know I'm going to get them if Lionel makes it. It bring me peace of mind.
"It bring me peace of mind." Which is a good thing. I find it amazing that the very thing that seems natural and practical to some causes turmoil of mind to others 
.
I think this old can has been kicked down the road way too far. Enough, we know how everyone feels. Thanks
Never seen one for sale at anything near those low prices. Maybe it's just they don't show up on the West Coast? $700 I'd buy one in a heart beat.
IMHO,
These will absolutely go up in value. It will take time, however. I don't care about the $, it is a hoot of a loco.
Eliot
Worth every penny. Fantastic engine.
On holding value - I invest in fun trains I plan to keep forever. Not a monetary investment for me. But I can see this definitely being a collector train that may someday command a high price.
Berkshire President posted:PJB posted:Ray Lombardo posted:For those who wanted one, it was worth it. And they are terrific locomotives. But don't confuse "BTO" with the return of the collector market or delude yourself into thinking these locomotives will retain or go up in value. BTO is about Lionel managing its capital outlay to get a better gauge of real, money on the table demand before laying out its own capital. MTH basically does the same thing and if that is what the realities of the business require I am fine with it. But don't allow marketers to convince you it is something else.
With respect, you're conflating things. Whether or not this wonderful rendition of the Big Boy turns into a collectible is determined by long-term demand, availability, and other such factors, not Lionel's motive for moving to a BTO paradigm.
Peter
With all due respect, Ray is actually 100% correct.
At some point, there will be a new round of Big Boys issued...with newer technology and features. When that happens, the value of last year's round of Big Boys will drop. Significantly.
The drop in value of the JLC Big Boys and Challengers will also occur with the Vision Line ones....at some point.
That doesn't mean you can't enjoy or fall in love with those locomotives....b/c if you have the space, they are fantastic. But don't kid yourself about them retaining their value. Trains are to be enjoyed.....not viewed as investments any longer, IMHO.
Seriously? Maybe you should actually read posts before responding to them? Whether or not any item goes up in value has zero to do with BTO or other such manufacturing paradigms and everything to do with future demand, scarcity, etc. of the given item. In Barney terms, if the VLBB becomes outdated in the future, then Ray 's comments might turn out to be true - but not because of BTO. it's because outdated, by implication, might mean less desirable. Can't even respond to the rest of your comments - they apparently came from a crystal ball.
One thing we can agree on - which is completely beside the point - is that these things are meant to be enjoyed. We all assume we will be here tomorrow. But tomorrow is promised to no one.
I didn't mean to start an argument. For folks who wanted a big boy, I think that is all the justification that is required. You work hard, you only go around once, and you see a fantastic loco? Go for it. I chuckle a little, however, when I see this dressed up and conflated a bit with BTO as a means of somehow insuring the value of the piece when my own view is that these things will go down in value like a rock when the newest star appears. Happens in all markets - go check the price on a four year old S class or 7 series. But the persons who buy these things aren't fools - they work hard and want to enjoy it.
My point is that it's the rationalization that is dangerous or misguided. Understand the choice you are making and embrace it. My own personal opinion on the conflation of hobbies and investing is that it is very dangerous to treat non-financial assets as investments, and heck even financial assets have plenty of risk if certain basics are not observed. That's all. Have a great weekend everyone.
Ray Lombardo posted:I didn't mean to start an argument. For folks who wanted a big boy, I think that is all the justification that is required. You work hard, you only go around once, and you see a fantastic loco? Go for it. I chuckle a little, however, when I see this dressed up and conflated a bit with BTO as a means of somehow insuring the value of the piece when my own view is that these things will go down in value like a rock when the newest star appears. Happens in all markets - go check the price on a four year old S class or 7 series. But the persons who buy these things aren't fools - they work hard and want to enjoy it.
My point is that it's the rationalization that is dangerous or misguided. Understand the choice you are making and embrace it. My own personal opinion on the conflation of hobbies and investing is that it is very dangerous to treat non-financial assets as investments, and heck even financial assets have plenty of risk if certain basics are not observed. That's all. Have a great weekend everyone.
Ray, I agree that buying these things as an investment is folly. They could turn out to be more valuable. But I wouldn't bet one dollar given the odds.
By the way, I've been curious about the blowdown issue. There was that gigantic thread many months ago that I mentioned in a post above - has anyone who bought the VLBB sent it back to Lionel to see if they would do something to make the blowdown effect visible to the naked eye? Thanks.
The blow down affect on mine seems to be ok, could be a little better but it could also be related to the amount of smoke fluid used / required. Meaning it uses a lot of fluid and I go by the standard 10 ~ 15 drops per stack - might not be enough fluid.
Not going to ship it anywhere - I am happy with the performance. Now, if it dies, it will go back.
Good question for the Lionel team at York
Mention VL/BB in the same thread and you will start an argument.
jim pastorius posted:Mention VL/BB in the same thread and you will start an argument.
I completely disagree! Lol!!
Well if you read through this thread - your both correct
For what it's worth, there is little denying that both the VL Big Boy and Challenger are fantastic locomotives.....
I had to send mine back for other reasons and asked them to check the blow down smoke. They said it was working as it should, but still weak to my eyes. I have found it does better if the main stack is off, and the locomotive is sitting on the section of track with the 18V power drop, so I think it's just power hungry.
sinclair posted:I had to send mine back for other reasons and asked them to check the blow down smoke. They said it was working as it should, but still weak to my eyes. I have found it does better if the main stack is off, and the locomotive is sitting on the section of track with the 18V power drop, so I think it's just power hungry.
Or you can slightly mod it so it works right) .. Alot of us did it cause the blowdown sucked!
I know someone that did that, and then had a warranty issue arise that he had to pay for as he voided the warranty to opening it up and messing with the smoke unit. I'll leave mine as is until the warranty is up and I really feel a need to have copious amounts of smoke.
it is tempting to mess with smoke units but you do have to think about the warranty issue
Bob C.
That wouldn't work for me-I am a "smoke unit junky".
Four chuffs per revolution and properly synched, heavy smoke is.......glorious!!
Maybe thy should have a tender in which instead of coal going down, it was wads of cash!
The best arrangement would be a tender full of smoke fluid for all you smokers.
If it can't smoke me out of my basement it gets fixed.
A bit pricey but it was my first big boy so i am happy
