VL Challenger smoke units anemic output

ToledoEd posted:

My VL Challenger was always an anemic smoker with little discernable smoke from the Dynamo or blowdown.  So i decided to open it up and replace the wicking.  Pretty straightforward except for that little tube between the fan and smoke reservoir in the auxiliary smoke unit it went well.  I did notice the resistor had turned brown but it didn't look as if any material was burned on it. After I closed it up and tried it, well, little improvement.  Blowdown works a little better but very little visible smoke from the dynamo..  I use peppermint Lionel fluid and I can smell it coming out of the hole, but the smoke is so very light.   

The main smoke element was putting out smoke, but anemic at best and no smoke from the whistle. This was true even when I turned off the main unit.  I replaced the wicking. I but an 8" wick in each half of the reservoir. I was careful not to block the hole for the air from the fan.  Still, very anemic smoke...it's visible but lite...no whistle smoke.  The fans run.  I was trying to emulate Bill Yates' results:    https://youtu.be/mCe2Jz-y4uI  [it's at about the 2:54 min. mark]

I thought of replacing the 8ohm resistors, but the Lionel parts list says "unavailable."  I'm not sure what I should do next to increase  the smoke output...or, should I just be satisfied I get some?  Thanks.

I forgot to mention:  When I opened up the smoke units, it appeared the Lioonel wick was a replacement, not the little blocks I've seen in other Lionel smoke units and there was only a resistor, not that other wire loop Bill describes in his videos.  

I have the Clinchfield version of the Challenger and I have just come to the conclusion that I should be happy to have smoke from the stack as I am unable to get any smoke from the other features.  I look forward to hearing what others are experiencing with theirs.

Don

How much smoke fluid do you put in it?

I soaked the wicks thoroughly before I closed up the reservoir.  When I opened them up to replace the wick it seemed they were very wet. 

Don, I hear you. If you hold the blowdown icon for 15 seconds or so, then wait 10 then hold it down it may produce some smoke. That’s a trick Mike Reagan suggested for my Big Boy. Works great with  the BB. 

Oh dear, sounds like an epidemic. I have a VL Challenger too and yes, the smoke from the dynamo is anaemic. Stack smoke is better but not great; whistle works, unlike yours, and that may help diagnose the problem.

With mine, I was so perturbed by the lack of performance that I opened it up while still under warranty to see what was up. Front smoke unit (stack and whistle) is an early Legacy dual chamber model. It is all metal, not the black plastic of later Legacy, with a metal divider in the middle that has a small gap at the bottom. At the time I was not familiar with these and did not know what to make of it. Here's the Lionel exploded parts diagram:

Getting smoke fluid into both the stack and whistle chambers is no easy matter. The smoke fluid goes in the main stack, which is a separate assembly that feeds into only one of the smoke outlets on top of the smoke unit. It relies on capillary action for the fluid to fill the adjoining whistle chamber:

Opening up the engine in the first place was a bad decision; a wire got pinched on reassembly and it had to go back to Lionel. I corresponded with Mike R. who said they'd re-pack the smoke units with rope wicking instead of the pads. I assume they did but no great improvement. The performance is not a patch on what I have seen in other people's videos but bear in mind that the camera angle and lighting and can affect the image.

Now for the punch line. I have not tried the "100 drops of smoke fluid" treatment, meaning opening up the engine, taking the PCB off the smoke unit and saturating the smoke wadding with fluid. (See earlier posts under that title from LOS, who has posted query a little further up this thread - he's being too modest.) What I have found is two things with the later Lionel dual chamber units. The first is that saturating the wadding with smoke fluid works although you don't need to take the engine apart, just add smoke fluid slowly and let it soak in across both chambers. The second is that there is a "Sweet Spot" with Legacy smoke units for maximum output when the smoke fluid level, track voltage and settings like EFX are all at the right level. This usually lasts at least a few runs around a large circuit. 

Recently, after a lot of fooling around with my favorite Legacy engine, the Daylight cab forward, I hit that spot, with the result shown in the video linked below. One day I will try getting the Challenger to work like this, which in my experience is as good as most Legacy smoke units perform: 

I have a number of Legacy steamers that I've been successful in getting maximum smoke from.  It can be done, sometimes it's a little "twitchy" to get it right.

John, any suggestions I can or should do?

HANCOCK52, thanks.  The sweet spot and “twitchy” are interesting comments. I did have one spectacular blowdown and dynamo smoke output last year. Could never repeat it. I wish I could remember what I did. I also have an UP cab forward that smokes like your video shows. Never fails to do so. Although I drenched the batting pretty well, or so I think when I opened it up, but maybe not.  I’m going to put more in. See what happens. 

One thing you can do if the wick is good is make SURE the screws and nuts that hold the smoke resistor are TIGHT.  If they're at all loose and make a poor connection, you lose a lot of heat and the smoke performance is very poor.

Thanks. I’ll open it up and check to be sure. 

Smoke units are pretty basic items,it should be rocket science to get them working properly.

If it's a Lionel smoke unit and has the thermistor, my experience is it should normally be parallel to the smoke unit with both the resistor and thermistor perpendicular to the smoke PCB.  If you don't get sufficient smoke, and you've done all the other smoke unit enhancement steps, try moving the thermistor about 1/8" farther away from the smoke resistor.

If it doesn't have the thermistor, there are only a handful of things you can do.  A good wick, tight connections to the smoke resistor, and proper smoke resistor placement.  I like the smoke resistor just offset from the stack and about 3/16" to 1/4" away from the top PCB.  The resistor should be firmly embedded in the wick material but NOT totally covered the top half should be exposed to the airflow from the fan.  Speaking of the fan, make SURE the path from the fan is not blocked, the air should be free to leave the fan chamber, go over the resistor and on out the stack, hopefully carrying the vaporized smoke fluid with it. 

Finally, make sure the fan is running in the proper direction.  For most smoke units, that's CW, but there are some that run it CCW.  Do not be fooled by the curved blades, the convex surface actually pushes the air, the shape is to reduce the air noise.  Many folks think the concave side should be pushing the air and run the fan backwards. You can normally see which way the fan should run by the positioning of the fan chamber exhaust port.  With that said, I've seen a couple smoke units that actually do run the fan with the concave surface pushing the air, never did understand that.

John, thanks. I do not have a thermistor, so I'll do the things you suggest in that situation and if that doesn't change things...so be it.  By the way, do the resistors fail gradually, or is it all or nothing?

thanks

Resistors can fail, and you can measure the resistance if you have a decent ohmmeter.  If the resistance is high, you'll get less smoke.  I've found the 8 ohm resistors at 8.5-10 ohms.  If an 8 ohm rated resistor is over 8.5 ohms I replace it.  I also check the new resistor value before I put it in.  As far as the ohmmeter, I use Fluke equipment.  I also have several values of 0.1% precision resistors that I periodically check the accuracy of my meter to insure my readings are valid.

Thanks John. I'll do that...  I assume any 8 ohm resistor should work as a replacement, yes?  I ask because Lionel lists the resistors for the VL Challenger as "unavailable."

ToledoEd posted:

I assume any 8 ohm resistor should work as a replacement, yes?

NOOOOO!  You need either 2W or 3W wirewound resistor.  I buy the ceramic coated ones as they're readily available and just knock the powdered ceramic off them with a Dremel wire wheel.

RES 8.2 OHM 2W 5% AXIAL

If you need it to be slightly shorter.

Bourns FW20A8R20JA

Oh, thanks.  I'll order some.  I adjusted the position of the resistor in the blowdown/dynamo unit, the nuts holding are tight. The meter reading is at 8.4 ohms so I'll not replace it.

Follow on:  just completed some trial runs again after checking resistors, and batting etc....no improvement.  Either I'm not doing something right, or...I don't know.  Thanks for the help, greatly appreciated.  

Let's get on the same page.  What's the actual product number for your Challenger?

If this is the 2010 model, the smoke control board has been known to croak.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If this is the 2010 model, the smoke control board has been known to croak.

Agreed but in the OP's case, like mine, the smoke functions on this model work but not in the way you would hope/expect - even after in my case Lionel worked on it with specific reference to the smoke output. If the smoke control board had blown presumably you'd get no response at all from the smoke controls.

If the engine has been opened up (a risky proposition) I'd replace the wicking and saturate it with smoke fluid as in LaidOffSick's videos. Then crank up the EFX to the max and see if that makes a difference. Having a good supply of current to the track is another factor.

Not really true, I had a Genset that has the same board design, and the smoke volume was just lousy, and that board was the culprit. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Not really true, I had a Genset that has the same board design, and the smoke volume was just lousy, and that board was the culprit. 

I have a Genset too and its smoke volume has always been lousy, so it's basically relegated to display status. I never thought of replacing the board. Trouble is, (a) you can't know whether a new one will be better and (b) this is one of those "must contact Lionel to order" parts so I assume you have to send the old one back (could be wrong about that).

I notice that it's referred to as "smoke fan control board" and wouldn't that meant it just controls when the various fan motors kick in? As you say, it looks similar to the Challenger part although the part number is one digit different:

There are 8 ohm resistors and all the smoke connections go to that board.  There has to be some power controls to regulate the power to the smoke resistors.  Since there are no other power handling parts on other boards that would handle the smoke units, that seems to be the only possibility.

The firmware is doubtless different for the Genset and the Challenger, but I'm pretty sure the hardware is the same on this board.

After reading this,I see you make no mention off checking the hoses for the blowdown and dynamo. Maybe when your putting the shell on they're getting kinked or pinched?

Doug

Also maybe at one time smoke fluid got into them and done something to the inside of the hose, I would also try a wire or compressed air thru the nozzles.

trnluvr posted:

After reading this,I see you make no mention off checking the hoses for the blowdown and dynamo. Maybe when your putting the shell on they're getting kinked or pinched?

Also maybe at one time smoke fluid got into them and done something to the inside of the hose, I would also try a wire or compressed air thru the nozzles.

I've tried putting compressed air through the dynamo smoke unit (which feeds what we've been calling the blowdown but isn't, it's a separate smoke outlet on one side near the injector). Didn't work and showed that the tubing was clear and connected because the airflow was free.  The low smoke output is either a system or settings defect.

Incidentally, you could not get a wire down through the smoke unit to the the tubing to the second outlet or not without risking damage to the resistor or the tubing.

P.S. On all these locos with the whistle near the main stack the whistle smoke is usually not very distinct because the smoke outlets are close together. There are engines where they are more widely spaced (VL ATSF 3000 for example) and the effect is much more what you expect.

Really makes me wanna pre-order a new one, especially with all the problems Lionel has had the past few years! 

Hancock52 posted:

trnluvr posted:

After reading this,I see you make no mention off checking the hoses for the blowdown and dynamo. Maybe when your putting the shell on they're getting kinked or pinched?

Also maybe at one time smoke fluid got into them and done something to the inside of the hose, I would also try a wire or compressed air thru the nozzles.

I've tried putting compressed air through the dynamo smoke unit (which feeds what we've been calling the blowdown but isn't, it's a separate smoke outlet on one side near the injector). Didn't work and showed that the tubing was clear and connected because the airflow was free.  The low smoke output is either a system or settings defect.

Incidentally, you could not get a wire down through the smoke unit to the the tubing to the second outlet or not without risking damage to the resistor or the tubing.

P.S. On all these locos with the whistle near the main stack the whistle smoke is usually not very distinct because the smoke outlets are close together. There are engines where they are more widely spaced (VL ATSF 3000 for example) and the effect is much more what you expect.

Well,it was just a thought. It would be interesting to know what voltage is actually getting to the resistor and what it should be getting. I'm guessing this fan control board thru the firmware is controlling the voltage to the resistor? I wonder if this part could be bypassed and a higher voltage run directly to the resistors?

Doug

The regulator actually receives serial data commands and there is a variety of voltages that are on the resistors, depending on the settings of the smoke intensity and the dynamic conditions at the time. 

I'm sure you "could" bypass just the heater circuit, but then you'd have no software control of the smoke, and it would be either on or off all the time.  Probably not a great idea.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Let's get on the same page.  What's the actual product number for your Challenger?

John, it’s 6-11221. I believe it appeared in the Lionel 2010 catalog. I bought "new in  the box" in May, 2013.  

gunrunnerjohn posted:

ToledoEd posted:

I assume any 8 ohm resistor should work as a replacement, yes?

NOOOOO!  You need either 2W or 3W wirewound resistor.  I buy the ceramic coated ones as they're readily available and just knock the powdered ceramic off them with a Dremel wire wheel.

RES 8.2 OHM 2W 5% AXIAL

If you need it to be slightly shorter.

Bourns FW20A8R20JA

I was able to locate the same Lionel resistor on the Bay.  Paid way too much, I'm sure. 

If it was more than 50-60 cents, then yes, you paid too much!

Well, in that case, let's just say I paid  WWWAAAYYY too much. 

If you click on the links for the parts above, you can see what the prices are.  For small orders, Digikey ships for $3-4.

Well, these new resistors read 8.4-8.5. This is exactly what the resistors in the Challenger read so...back to the beginning.  So, is it possible that the PCB 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If this is the 2010 model, the smoke control board has been known to croak.

John,

when you say "croak" do you men fails completely, or performs poorly reducing smoke output?  If the latter, I'll try to find a new replacement from Lionel.

Well, I've had one that was simply dead, and I had one that just didn't have decent smoke.  After rebuilding the smoke units and knowing they were good, I replaced that baord and all was well.

I found this thread (2012) which shows placing the wick in a manner I've never seen before.  intuitively it seems it would work, but wouldn't the wick burn very quickly?  I'm game to try anything. Since this is dated post Challenger, I'm wondering if it would work in my situation. Comments?

https://ogrforum.com/...l-smoke-unit-upgrade

Thanks.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, I've had one that was simply dead, and I had one that just didn't have decent smoke.  After rebuilding the smoke units and knowing they were good, I replaced that baord and all was well.

Thanks. I'll see if I can get a replacement from Lionel. If not, it's still a beautiful engine.

ToledoEd posted:

I found this thread (2012) which shows placing the wick in a manner I've never seen before.  intuitively it seems it would work, but wouldn't the wick burn very quickly?  I'm game to try anything. Since this is dated post Challenger, I'm wondering if it would work in my situation. Comments?

https://ogrforum.com/...l-smoke-unit-upgrade

Thanks.

I get the best results by shredding the standard Lionel wick and just stuffing it all in the bowl, then soak it with smoke fluid.  Seat the PCB with the resistor firmly embedded in the wick material, but NOT totally covered.  Make sure there is an airway from the fan chamber over the resistor and to the stack.  The resistor should be positioned perpendicular to the PCB straight down.

John, did you mean to say parallel to the PCB vice perpendicular?  I've never seen a resistor seated perpendicular.  The leads running from each end of the resistor are perpendicular but not the resistor.  This is how I see the resistor when I open the smoke unit: