Weaver chain drive vs China drive

Early on, Weaver used a single-tower horizontal chain drive in their RS3, FA2/FB2, and GP38 models. These were easily identified by their one-piece plastic bodies with fixed pilots (even in the 3-rail versions). The motor drove a shaft to the rear truck's tower which drove a chain down to the axles. An intermediate shaft ran from the rear to the front of the locomotive to drive the front axles. This provided good low-speed operation, but some of the gears would split over time due to shrinking of the Delrin plastic. Replacement parts are readily available from P&D hobbies and other sources, or a split gear can (in some cases) be drilled and a wire pin inserted through the shaft to stabilize the gear. Red Caboose GP9 kits/RTR were equipped with this type of drive, as were the early Atlas F9's and were subject to the same gear-split issues.

The "China Drives" showed up in later locomotive models and the previous models (GP38-2, FA2/FB2, and RS3) were switched over to the vertical-can "China Drives". The vertical can drives were more robust, but didn't have the low speed operating characteristics of the chain drives. The locomotives were also a less fragile.

The drive in the "old" Atlas F9 and the RC GP9 were identical and did use a horizantal motor and gear towers to the trucks.    However, the Atlas drive was a lot less robust than the Weaver drive over all.    And the Weaver RC use a "good" Pittman motor while the Atlas  use a tin can motor.    The gear  tower parts on the Weaver are not interchangeable with the Atlas/Rc drive.

Thanks guys but that is not my question. Did any of the Weaver chain drive locos come in the "Ultra Line"  black boxes ?  Thanks,          j

@JohnActon posted:

Thanks guys but that is not my question. Did any of the Weaver chain drive locos come in the "Ultra Line"  black boxes ?  Thanks,          j

Thats a good question. I have purchased on Ebay a Weaver non powered Conrail Quality GP38 that came in a black box yet had the old one piece pilot frame body and body mounted 3 rail couplers.

I wouldn't judge the o.e.m. box color to the type of loco design. I would definitely want to see the loco and see that "light gap" between the pilot and body. As a 3 railer I prefer the latter design change of china drive and die cast pilots. Note the truck sides on the GP38 were never die cast. They were always delrin plastic regardless of drive and o scale or 3 rail.

I really like China drives. They are pretty much bullet proof and will run a long time with proper lubrication. Cruise Control by ERR makes them run really well.

I don't do any slow speed switching, however. I can see the shortcomings of China Drive under those circumstances.

But of course, none of this has to do with the original question.

The short answer is "Yes". I'm staring at a Magma RS3 with a chain drive in a black Ultra Line box right now. I have also owned 2 Weaver GP38s, both of which were horizontal motored with chain drive. As I recall, both came in black Ultra Line boxes.

Chris

LVHR

I bought (also on eBay) a Weaver Geep 38 in an "Ultra Line" black box; 3-rail, undecorated, fixed pilots, chain-drive. Came to me as Maine Central #261; I've posted pictures here before, I think. Being used, I cannot swear that it's the original box; although all the proper paperwork was included, so I'm pretty sure it is (original).

Bought a NWSL conversion kit and changed it over to 2 rail: quiet and smooth as silk; great runner. 

Also got a UP RS3, same source. Red box, chain drive, fixed pilots, paperwork, etc. 3 rail changed to 2...

Oddly enough, I actually prefer the old Atlas type of set-up; with motor, drive and gearing all above the frame and inside the body: like your typical HO or N drive. No exposed driveline down in the fuel tank, extending out to the trucks...but that's just me.  

Mark in Oregon

The china drive are certainly sturdier.   But the chain drive single motor drive and be easily disassembled and repaired with simple hand tools.   I think to replace an axle gear for example on a china drive you would need some sort of specialized press to get the wheel off the truck block.

I have not had a GP38 wiht the china drive in my hands.   I did work on examples of the RS3 and the FA for a friend.    The FA was OK in appearance because the stamped metal frame fit inside the body and as I remember the height was not too bad.    However, the RS3 sat too high on the trucks and was made to look short and stubby instead of sleeker and lower like in photos of real locos.   

My confession is I am in 2 rail, so I have two priorities.   First the locos do have to run well, and have good low speed control.   The follow on to this is that the drive and mechanism should be well built.    The second priority is that the model should look as close as possible like a reduced size version of the prototype.   It is supposed to be a scale model of the prototype, and if I look at photos of a real loco, I want the model to look like the real ones in the photos.

Hi JohnActon:

I have just taken delivery of a brand new (old stock) Weaver Union Pacific GP 38 diesel from the Ultra Line range. The loco has the "chain drive" system, and telescoping square drive shafts.

It came complete in a "Black" colored Weaver Ultra Line cardboard box with the sponge rubber insert and top cover. All of the paperwork was included (coupler installation instructions and additional drawing for coupler installation, warranty registration card, and drawings/dimensions of the GP 38 loco, and the position of the handrails, horns etc)

I had to install the couplers, handrails, and horns myself, and once everything was in place, I fired her up and off she went, no troubles at all after all of these years. It runs real slow, and can pull a stack of freight cars with little effort. In a word......Sensational!!!

So to answer your initial question, yes this/my brand new "chain driven" Weaver GP 38 diesel loco came in a black colored Weaver Ultra Line box from new.

Hope this helps......Peter on the fabulous Gold Coast in sunny Queensland, Australia. 

John's got his answer - Wvr black Ultraline boxes with chain drive locos ... yes.  Now do you guys remember the first Wvr RS3s had a central tower with short shafts out to each truck?  Then the 3-railers said it wouldn't go round their curves, so the end tower was born.  You can still see the central tower mounting holes on the RS3 frame.  The long shaft between trucks changed visibly over the years too.  A nice easy collection of parts to power stuff and still available.  Change gear diameters to control track speed.

China drive had to come(!) to allow room for darn circuit boards for 3-rail and slow speed running can be played with: wire the motors in series or take one motor out and put a cab interior where the other one was, etc(?).

And I can't help but ask why have MTH (and Lionel?) not got the handrail stanchions as plain, square-U section like the real thing?  What's that, I've digressed?!?

Jason

Ooops, thought I was in 2-rail, SORRY!!

@Jason Dickie posted:

John's got his answer - Wvr black Ultraline boxes with chain drive locos ... yes. 

China drive had to come(!) to allow room for darn circuit boards for 3-rail and slow speed running can be played with: wire the motors in series or take one motor out and put a cab interior where the other one was, etc(?).

Jason

 

Unfortunately in the Weaver Models GP38, the vertical motor shield is molded with the long hood plastic. To place a full cab interior into the cab is more than taking out the front motor. You also have to carefully cut out the plastic motor shield as well.

GP38-2 one of Weaver's last offerings, Two can motors.  You can see the front motor through the cab windows. 

Just have to jump in and beat the battery R/C drum. 

After having GRJ convert my twin drive Weaver to battery R/C it now can snail creep couple up without spilling the passenger's soup.  Crazy slow speed control!  The dual twin drive units provide generous room for the boards.

Can anyone confirm Weaver "Ultra" line vs Normal Weaver?  I didn't realize that they had two lines like MTH Railking vs Premier.  I always thought it was just All Weaver.

Weaver Ultra Line = made in USA

Weaver Gold Line = made overseas (usually Korea)

I think the China drive is needed to free up space for all the modern electronics. I’d love to see Lionel experiment with a horizontal drive with huge flywheels at each end of the motor allowing the flywheels to perform their intended job of coasting the engine rather than just a place to wrap tachometer tape. Just look at the flywheel size used on N and HO engines. 

@prrjim posted:

1. The china drive are certainly sturdier.   But the chain drive single motor drive and be easily disassembled and repaired with simple hand tools.   I think to replace an axle gear for example on a china drive you would need some sort of specialized press to get the wheel off the truck block.

2. I have not had a GP38 wiht the china drive in my hands.   I did work on examples of the RS3 and the FA for a friend.    The FA was OK in appearance because the stamped metal frame fit inside the body and as I remember the height was not too bad.    However, the RS3 sat too high on the trucks and was made to look short and stubby instead of sleeker and lower like in photos of real locos.   

3. My confession is I am in 2 rail, so I have two priorities.   First the locos do have to run well, and have good low speed control.   The follow on to this is that the drive and mechanism should be well built.    The second priority is that the model should look as close as possible like a reduced size version of the prototype.   It is supposed to be a scale model of the prototype, and if I look at photos of a real loco, I want the model to look like the real ones in the photos.

Jim

1: I agree completely.

2: Can I guess that you are referring to the "China drive" in the case of that RS3? My single motor, chain drive example looks okay to me...(current eBay listing shown here...)

3: Amen to that! 

Mark in Oregon

Thanks guys,   I was not aware that any of the Ultra Line locos had the chain drive.  I have locos with both and have installed tmcc boards in both and do like the chain drive better than the china drive for the same reason the two rail guys do. They can really creep down the track especially with an ERR Cruise commander in the 100 step mode.          j

I seem to remember having an A-B combination, that came in the black box, do not remember if they were F-units or PA/PB-1 units, it was about 10 years ago. and I hated the chain drive, had to have both repaired shortly after receiving. 

Bill, the Weaver Alco FA2 and FB2 were/are still good.  Spare parts still around for the chain drives.  I like to think someone misspelled Chain on the order and something from the Far East turned up!

Jason

It's good to know that parts for the Weaver chain-drive (also called "tower drive") system are available now. It wasn't always the case when Weaver was still in business and producing the revised truck-motor "China drive" units.

I found a pair of Alco FA's at a train show for a too-good-to pass up price that was worth it whether they ran or needed repairs. Sure enough, the shaft gears had split. But at the time, the only option was significant rebuild with some fairly costly substitute parts. Weaver didn't carry OEM parts and no one had much on had for reproductions/equivalents. I've seen that often when a manufacturer switches contractors/subcontractors. Parts for the old version dry up because it's not worth supporting the old, out-of-contract production. But yet, years later, the correct parts surface once yet another manufacturer/contractor decides there's a market for just parts.

Incidentally, the units I found came in maroon-colored, foam-lined boxes -- They may be from an even older run. They're in CNW's prototypical plain dark green paint scheme. Not a popular livery, but interesting if you model the midwest/Chicago area. There are some interesting gems among the older Weaver production if you go hunting.

@EricF posted:

Incidentally, the units I found came in maroon-colored, foam-lined boxes -- They may be from an even older run. They're in CNW's prototypical plain dark green paint scheme. Not a popular livery, but interesting if you model the midwest/Chicago area. There are some interesting gems among the older Weaver production if you go hunting.

Eric

After reading this, I got to thinking that perhaps my RS3 box (which I had described as "red") may in fact be more of a "maroon" color. Under this lighting, at least, it looks pretty "red" after all:

Would like to see some photos of your FAs...and that "maroon" colored box! 

Mark in Oregon

I wish they were available. Unfortunately, they're in storage at least until this fall or winter. 

Seems like Weaver has had quite a number of packaging and series names over the years. Mine are in the same style of boxes, only the outer covering is darker, more wine-red or maroon, and the paper covering over the cardboard is slightly textured. (I think that's how the black boxes appear, too) They have the same sort of foam lining and detailed paperwork. The clear plastic windshields were packaged separately in the box with instructions on how to attach them; mine were never installed.

Early Weaver production was definitely geared more toward "scale O" instead of "tinplate". If I recall, they offered models in both 2-rail and 3-rail versions. And the "tower drive" was a 2-rail convention. The 3-rail versions were an adaptation and not always well-understood in the 3-rail sector that was accustomed to truck-mounted motors since the postwar era.

It seems like Weaver has its own interesting history and product lines to document...