Weaver VO1000 poor contact pickup

Have you tried rubbing a graphite stick on the rails? That is what I am doing these days with my outdoors railway.

Here is a video showing a small critter with steel wheels running this morning outdoors.

I can run it much slower but it would be agonizing to watch  :>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UmUa_zrVFc

cheers

Bob

I have had some trouble with pick-up. It was suggested that I try Wahl Hair clipper oil. I use like a drop on each rail every 12" or so then let the trains run. That will put a very light film of oil on the track. If there seems to be too much wipe some off the rail.

Dick

Bob, your outdoor layout looks like fun. It even has all the maintenance issues of the real railroads!

Dan Weinhold

  The clipper oil isn't very slick either fyi. I hit rails with a small square of soaked cloth, then a dry cloth after that to remove the excess, then traction is normal.  It cleans very well, sometimes pulling up black that solvents miss.

  Try a quality electrical contact cleaner spray. (crc is very common and decent too ) Do the contacts and wheel backs. (I assume that's where they are). The good brands clean, coat, connect, and protect without damage to windings paint, etc.

I like the graphite idea for improving connection, however, offhand, that seems slicker overall in my other experiences using graphite. (that stuff made me a pinewood derby champ as a kid; not just locally either. Oil is a joke compared to it at times, lol)

  I'll assume this is 2rs from the vernacular ...fyi, for future reference, you can't see what section your reading from while in some mobile views, so if folks chime in funny now, like me with my Tinplate clownshoes on, please give a heads up... I can wear the "the right size" too, it's just not quite a passion for me

Have you had it open? It may be the issue is with internal wiring to the motor.  Or a binding drive

They have been apart many time, so I'm long past the gear/motor/wiring issues.  Both units run like a champ on the bench.

I like the graphite stick idea and will give it a try.  I recall clipper oil is also an old-school remedy but I think it might affect traction more than the graphite.  I'll report results back soon.

Thanks, John

I also have this intermittent contact running issue with Weaver Ultraline (vertical can drive) models, especially FA's and the VO's, as best as I can tell there is no one single reason, but here's some of the repairs or fixes I've had to make/employ. They usually address the immediate failure/issue but then after a couple more hours (sometimes only minutes) of running they start manifesting another "syndrome." 

1. Bad harness; cold solder wire leads to the cans, eyelet mounts to truck not getting good contact, I resolder can lead, coat face of crimped wire eyelet with dialectric (blue) grease compound.

2. Contact leaf/whisker not getting good contact, I make sure I have good solid contact and coat inside of wheel contact area with that same blue grease.

3. Per Chris's recommendation inside car body roof rubbing flywheel. It's one of the most common assembly failures I see with these models. 

My layout is in my basement and suffers from the dust, dirt, cheapo code 148 Roco/Atlas flex track etc. too, oddly the Weavers do better on it than they do on my clubs code 172 which is cleaned far more often. As an aside the RS-11s seem to be the most consistently reliable of the bunch. In contrast the E8's and U-25B's are generally trouble free runners. My .02 

DIELECTRIC ("die") grease actually impedes contact and stops arching.

Over the years folks have discovered it keeps corrosion at bay well increasing reliable contact in autos, but in a clean environment, it isn't really a great choice as a contact improver. (I was under the same fase impression for years fyi. But on contacts, just about any grease will equal it.)

  There are greases made to improve contact, but you aren't going to find them at Wally World or in a 5 gals- auto-value-zone. 

If the graphite doesn't cause traction issues, I think that will help tons more.

  And speaking of weight, pressure is the best way to improve contact.W With withwt more pressure there is less resistance at the joint. Pressure should have more impact than any sq.inch increase in contact size. 

    So, can it be heavier? Run a test weight. (every Weaver I've held was pretty durned heavy already, but could be heavier too) 

Well I tried both the graphite and the Wahl clipper oil.  The graphite seemed to help slightly, but the clipper oil really made an improvement.  There is an older thread that I just replied to: "Help with All Nation F unit drive or pick up", that deals with the steel wheel issue.  Very useful.  I'm trying to reach out to Jay C. to buy some of the parts he makes.

Thanks,

John

Opin-yun, to me most light oils like Wahl etc will improve rail to wheel, and wheel to wiper contact, the caveat is they dry out leaving a sludge residue that bonds with dirt, dust, and arc compounds. So if you go that route you're going to be cleaning rail or reapplying the oil often, more so if using DCC, likewise if you rotate rolling stock, oil-grime build-up manifests itself in circlets of "gra-doo" in the corner of the tread and flange, exponentially worse with delrin sets. I visit other layouts with my equipment so I try and not bring any dirt along as they're all DCC and only use alcohol or distillate to clean their rail as I do.

As far as Adriatic's comment regarding the efficacy of dielectric grease over any grease, I can't disagree; but I use it on contact surfaces including brush faces-armatures (I run a lot of old school open faced K&D's) in part to cure the ARC-ing and have no complaints otherwise as it addresses the contact issues on the wheels as I've sited, at least based on what my amp meter and v-regulator says before and after. I don't doubt any appropriate grease will do in the short run, but still prefer the blue Permatex based on my experience. I do disagree regarding added weight though; always an option but the China drives eat themselves up over extended operation of the Weaver's anyway, so since I'm not down with re-greasing the gears often I don't go there. The drives are a pretty lame design durability-wise for extended operation anyway and I think added weight would only accelerate the wear on them.  Just my opinion based on exposure.

I hope folks here keep this string going with regard to addressing Ultraline Weaver issues like the VO's, I like them a lot, having a modest investment in them re-working with more detail, new paint and better harnesses etc., they're my kind of bargain.  

On a different note, All-nations sintered metal wheels are a chronic issue, replacing them with good wheel sets yields a night vs day difference in performance.

 That makes plenty of sense to me; good "point/counterpoint"👍...Despite a pile of little facts gathered above, the most important one, we tend to skip right over in our search for a singular "universal answer" is that there usually isnt one answer......"Milage may vary" 

The drive wear from weight could be a reflection of it's pulling capabilities and wear expectations doing it too. You do have to add something to the pull wear expected to compensate for the downforce, inertia & momentum, but I wouldn't have really thought 2r O drives be that sensitive in gearing.

I like dry brushes, but do not to dry out metals of oil totally. The armature gaps collection of brush dust can bridge faster if the areas are too wet. I think grease having more "body" is an unwanted filler here. I can see a wipe being beifical, but I think dry overall is more benefical to the flow of the gaps expelling excess dust/air (with centrifugal force...this is the hvac airflow part of me thinking too)  With more open area brushplates, nice plates, and harder brushes, the build up becomes less of an issue... and it's a case by case, but I have 3 motors of different brands with penchant for bridging gaps with dust. Brush wear doesn't seem abnormal either.

  I had 400lbs in three young dogs, now down to two 150lb dogs end up here a few years ago (Im that sucker)  I'm in a "dust bowl", in my eyes, for about another 4-8yr  and can't really compare my track cleaning needs to most folks or even my own past. Too soon maybe..?

  I think it's clever how the graphite is being used here. I keep thinking there are other places in the hobby this could be applied well.    The only thing I ever really did with block graphite was mig weld small gauge metal on it's no-stick surface; a backer (you can lay a practice puddle of molten metal alone, without any subject metal to attach to ).    I never got around to trying it with any kind of soldering. Might not even have the brick anymore. Tried anything like that?

 Im not a fan of wipers. I had better luck with plungers. But I wonder if a contact pad wiper is ever used? I came across 1 N gauge using them and they seemed great. They were basically like the brush arms on a small gauge moto, or the point arms of a small relay. Thin graphite points that have a boss on top held in place against the wheel with arm pressure, point simply seated in a hole in the arm. I've been thinking on axle contacts this might be a larger imporvement over plain arms and Im now kinda hunting my junk mentally for a large set from a dead motor I might adapt to a problem pass. car.

As active runners, I don't think we go long enough without some cleaning and re-application to worry too much about oil varnish build ups. Wood ties might be reason to keep some rails dry.

Dissimilar metals. wipers/wheels.  may be part of the problem.  Copper/brass wipers  Steel/ferrous wheels.  Arcing would worsen the problem.  Moving the wipers to a  steel axle, may be a better connection.  IMO. 

Pick-up assembly on the tender of  a 3rail/2rail MTH Russian Decapod steam loco offering. The closest I ever got to 2 rail. The roller is removed for two rail operation.  This design also compensates for the wheel sets moving back and forth in the truck journals, with out compromising the connection point tension. 

Maybe better wheel sets, a different wiper design.  

Lots of good info in this thread!  

The engines with the worst contact problems all have sintered wheels, regardless of the pickup type.  I believe the problem is between the wheel tread and the track.  For an engine to stall, all the wheels that pickup need to lose contact.  

Adding wipers can help by increasing the number of wheels that actually pick-up.  I have done this on some engines to good effect.  Wipers on the axles, where possible is better than on the wheels.  Contacting the sintered iron is not as good as contacting machined steel.  However, this isn't possible on the insulated wheels - they need a pickup actually on the wheel tread or back.  

I am going to try various things on the VO-1000 and will report the results.

For what it's worth, I considered making plunger-style pickups similar to what Atlas uses on RS-1s and F-3s.  Mouser Electronics has plunger contacts (see pics) that could be mounted in a fiber block.  I bought some of these but never got around to trying it out.  If someone wants to experiment, send me a PM and I'll provide details.

John

I have been using plunger pickups for the last eight years.   They have never caused a problem once they are set up.  And they are fairly inexpensive to set up.  This photo shows the details how I put them in a Sunset GG1

This one shows how I installed them on the trucks of a Lionel Shark.  You can see I used the three rail pick-up roller base to hold the plunger tube.

 Note the current passes from the plunger through the tube to the electrical connection.  The way that Atlas did it, which is to rely on the spring to provide the electrical contact is not a good approach..the spring gets hot, looses its temper, and collapses.  But not before it melts the surrounding insulation:

Instead, re work them to look like this

All my locos have steel wheels.  I believe sintered wheels are inferior, because they do not conduct electricity as well as steel, and they do not have smooth surfaces. The latter effectvely reduces the contact area, so much so that you end up with micro sparks because all the current can't pass through the avaialbel contact area.   This in turn leads to carbon and hence dirt.  And hence lousy contact

By the way, the reason the Wahl oil works is it provides a thin film that fills in those micro pits.  As a very thin layer of oil will conduct electricity, you improve the contact.  Unfortunately, as the oil wears off, it now provides a supply of carbon when the sparking starts.

I use TRACK MAGIC to keep both track and wheels clean, and it seems to work very well

John, Your plunger article is excellent.  I can make these; they are no harder to do than wipers.  

*** Update on my VO-1000.  I got it to run OK with the following, all of which have been mentioned previously:

1. Remove all old grease from axles, worm and gears - relube with LaBelle products
2. Install better wipers
3. Clean Wheels 
4. Put motors in series

It still doesn't have great low-speed operation.  I am thinking about replacing the motors with Canon FN-30s.  They will fit, but I'm not sure if it is possible to get the worm off the old motor without destroying it.  Does anyone have any tips on this?

John