Weird Legacy F3 A unit behavior

Isn't the blinking cab light a sign of some malfunction?

@c.sam posted:

Isn't the blinking cab light a sign of some malfunction?

That's what I'm thinking, but what malfunction?

Rod

Did you do a re-set on the powered A unit? If not do so that may fix the blinking cab light. I would not use the train setting to control any cab engines. Set all units up with the same engine ID say 23. Place the powered A in front going forward then the B unit in the direction it starts up in as forward then the non powered A facing backwards. Press engine 23 and all units should go in the same direction in forward. The rear coupler on the trailing non powered A should work fine. Give it a try. Even if both A units were powered using the same engine number will work fine as the trailing A unit always starts in reverse.

JohnB

I'm not sure this has the diagnostic blink code but it might just need a reset.  These are out of the manual for this locomotive.  The engine might thing it has a strobe light.

Reprogramming your locomotives to restore features I f your locomotives are unresponsive to your commands in the TrainMaster Command Control environment, we recommend that you follow this procedure to reset your locomotive set.

1. Slide the Command reverse unit switch on your locomotives to the PGM position. See pages 13, and 36 for the location of the Command Reverse Unit switch on each unit. Work with only one locomotive at a time.

2. Plug in and connect your Command Base.

3. Place your locomotive on the track, then power up the track.

4. Press ENG and enter the locomotive’s ID#.

5. Press SET.

6. Press ENG and enter the locomotive’s ID# again.

7. Press AUX1.

8. Enter 2 for this particular locomotive.

9. Turn off track power and wait ten seconds.

10. Slide the Command reverse unit switch back to the RUN position. Repeat these steps for each locomotive. At this point, your locomotive has been reset. Restore power to the track and operate the locomotive as usual. Be sure to use the ID# entered in Step 4.

@JohnB posted:

Rod

Did you do a re-set on the powered A unit? If not do so that may fix the blinking cab light. I would not use the train setting to control any cab engines. Set all units up with the same engine ID say 23. Place the powered A in front going forward then the B unit in the direction it starts up in as forward then the non powered A facing backwards. Press engine 23 and all units should go in the same direction in forward. The rear coupler on the trailing non powered A should work fine. Give it a try. Even if both A units were powered using the same engine number will work fine as the trailing A unit always starts in reverse.

JohnB

Wouldn't the rear coupler on the B unit fire if it's not in a lash-up?

EDIT:  Ignore this.  See GRJ and Marty's correction in following posts.

Bob

This is a Legacy locomotive.  From the Legacy manual:

Your locomotive includes built-in diagnostics to monitor the condition of the main drive motor and smoke system. If a problem is detected, the locomotive's cab light will blink a diagnostic code.

If you see the light inside the cab flashing, press RESET (for LEGACY operation), 0 (for TMCC operation), or DIRECTION/power interruption (for conventional operation to attempt to clear the problem. The locomotive will immediately check itself again. If the problem persists, the cab light will blink the code again.

Note that smoke-related errors can be reset a maximum of three times. On the third try, if the problem still persists, the smoke unit will be shut down and must be returned to Lionel Service for repair.

Turning the smoke unit switch to the off position will disable diagnostic checks of the smoke system.

Number of Blinks Diagnostic Code Description

1 Main drive motor stalled.
2 Smoke 1 element problem.
3 Smoke 1 fan problem.
4 Not applicable.
5 Not applicable.

Bob

@RRDOC posted:

This is a Legacy locomotive.  From the Legacy manual:

Your locomotive includes built-in diagnostics to monitor the condition of the main drive motor and smoke system. If a problem is detected, the locomotive's cab light will blink a diagnostic code.

If you see the light inside the cab flashing, press RESET (for LEGACY operation), 0 (for TMCC operation), or DIRECTION/power interruption (for conventional operation to attempt to clear the problem. The locomotive will immediately check itself again. If the problem persists, the cab light will blink the code again.

Note that smoke-related errors can be reset a maximum of three times. On the third try, if the problem still persists, the smoke unit will be shut down and must be returned to Lionel Service for repair.

Turning the smoke unit switch to the off position will disable diagnostic checks of the smoke system.

Number of Blinks Diagnostic Code Description

1 Main drive motor stalled.
2 Smoke 1 element problem.
3 Smoke 1 fan problem.
4 Not applicable.
5 Not applicable.

Bob

I'm not sure this locomotive has the diagnostics.  The manual for it does not reference the usual blinking cab codes.

These are modular boards, they do not have any diagnostic blink codes.  Only RCMC equipped and newer Legacy has the diagnostic blink codes.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

These are modular boards, they do not have any diagnostic blink codes.

Thanks John.  I thought these didn't.

Hmm.  Always willing to learn new things.  And while I am learning new things, does the TMCC reprograming procedure that Marty outlined work on Legacy engines?  Is there a list of codes for Legacy engines, or do you just need to look it up in the manual?

Bob

@rplst8 posted:

Wouldn't the rear coupler on the B unit fire if it's not in a lash-up?

If the B unit has a Electro coupler then turn it off if it has a switch. Most B units come with dummy couplers which in my opinion should only be installed on B units unless it is part of a AB set where the B unit is coupled to the consist.

@RRDOC posted:

Hmm.  Always willing to learn new things.  And while I am learning new things, does the TMCC reprograming procedure that Marty outlined work on Legacy engines?  Is there a list of codes for Legacy engines, or do you just need to look it up in the manual?

Bob

That is from this engine manual.  It better work.

@JohnB posted:

If the B unit has a Electro coupler then turn it off if it has a switch. Most B units come with dummy couplers which in my opinion should only be installed on B units unless it is part of a AB set where the B unit is coupled to the consist.

I don't think this B Unit has a switch for the couplers.  Again this came later.

Wow, thanks for all the replies so far! I will try an engine reset today. It seems strange that this blinking only started when I reset the ID#. The A-A units had been running fine before with both using the same ID# and addressing them as one.

The B unit does have a rear electrocoupler, but no switch. When running the 3 as a lashup the B unit coupler remains closed and the rear A unit coupler fires when R is pushed; all like it should work. I was hoping to also be able to run The lead A unit and the B unit as a 2 engine lashup; but I guess I will need a different train lashup to do that and have the B unit rear coupler work.

Are most folks running multi unit Legacy’s as a lashup? Or programmed to the same ID# and addressed as one; as was suggested earlier in this thread? Just wondering.

Also I have switched off Odyssey in the powered B unit, and use it only in the lead A unit. Is this the best way, or should Odyssey be ON in both?

Rod

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

These are modular boards, they do not have any diagnostic blink codes.  Only RCMC equipped and newer Legacy has the diagnostic blink codes.

Thats what I thought John, since there is no mention in the engine manual. But then why is the cab light blinking I wonder?? It shouldn’t be anything to do with smoke units, they are all switched off for now.

Exactly how is the cab light blinking, in a steady cadence?

@Rod Stewart posted:

Thats what I thought John, since there is no mention in the engine manual. But then why is the cab light blinking I wonder?? It shouldn’t be anything to do with smoke units, they are all switched off for now.

The engine may think it has a strobe light.  A reset should take care of this if that's the case.  I would run Odyssey on both units.  MY F3s from that era are done in a MU (lashup).  Later models with the switches are all one ID.

@MartyE posted:

The engine may think it has a strobe light.  A reset should take care of this if that's the case.  I would run Odyssey on both units.  MY F3s from that era are done in a MU (lashup).  Later models with the switches are all one ID.

Marty,

    I have a set of PRR TMCC Sharks where both A units have sound and TMCC control and one starts in forward the other starts in reverse so I run them as engine # 52 and they work fine. Same with my TMCC FA units where only the front A has power.

JohnB

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Exactly how is the cab light blinking, in a steady cadence?

Yep, about once per second. Steady. Makes no difference if its connected to the other units, or if they are even on the track.

@JohnB posted:

Marty,

    I have a set of PRR TMCC Sharks where both A units have sound and TMCC control and one starts in forward the other starts in reverse so I run them as engine # 52 and they work fine. Same with my TMCC FA units where only the from A has power.

JohnB

I run them in a MU for the couplers.  IT's an ABBA.

@MartyE posted:

I run them in a MU for the couplers.  IT's an ABBA.

Marty,

    Use the same engine # in all units As & Bs. If one is powered make sure it is pointed in the right direction. Couples will work fine front coupler is on the A that starts in forward rear coupler is the one on the A unit that starts in reverse. Give it a try. This was more important in the TMCC days when you had only 10 train #s to use. Now with Legacy you can use at least two digits in train #s.

JohnB

@JohnB posted:

Marty,

    Use the same engine # in all units As & Bs. If one is powered make sure it is pointed in the right direction. Couples will work fine front coupler is on the A that starts in forward rear coupler is the one on the A unit that starts in reverse. Give it a try. This was more important in the TMCC days when you had only 10 train #s to use. Now with Legacy you can use at least two digits in train #s.

JohnB

The B units have electro couplers.

Marty,

     If there is no way to turn off the electro couplers on the B units I would say get rid of them. Replace them with Dummies. How many times do you take apart a lash up to take off a unit A or B? On my stuff I’d say never. It’s worth giving it a try you can always put them back in a MU if you don’t like it.

JohnB

@JohnB posted:

Marty,

     If there is no way to turn off the electro couplers on the B units I would say get rid of them. Replace them with Dummies. How many times do you take apart a lash up to take off a unit A or B? On my stuff I’d say never. It’s worth giving it a try you can always put them back in a MU if you don’t like it.

JohnB

I'm fine with the way I run them.

Marty,

    I forgot to mention with electro couplers on the back of A or B units you cannot get your lash up close coupled. Dummy couplers come in all lengths I always get dummies that come from E units as they are the shortest. I say no electro-couplers on the rears of any A or B units as they are a waste of electricity. 😀

JohnB

OK we are looking good now! Re-programmed the lead A unit per the manual procedure that you pointed out Marty; thanks for that. The blinking cab light issue went away.

The A-A units are numbered 2373/2374. The B unit is 2375. So I ID'd them 73, 74, and 75 respectively. I MU'd them together per the manual as an ABA train #23, and all works fine. The rear coupler on the rear A unit works properly. And I can run them as ABA or AA with this setup. In the AA configuration the controller doesn't seem to know or care that the B unit is not there. Either configuration works fine. Then I built a 2 unit A-B lashup as train #25. This allows the rear B unit coupler to function when it is only 2 units. The only strange thing is the cab light in the rear A unit now does not function when in reverse, in either a 3 or 2 engine lashup. Not sure why. It used to work fine when the A units were run as one engine with the same ID numbers. Oh well.....

Per the above discussion JohnB you could run them as all one ID number by adding a simple switch to defeat the B unit rear coupler (where not already equipped). That would be easy to do in this case as the B unit frame already has an empty slide switch punch out. But the above MU setup seems to work pretty well. Its interesting that when you build a Legacy lashup and push Set to finalize it, it takes a noticeable number of seconds as it is building the train. Then when done the whistle blows, the sounds start up and you are good to go.

Marty I think you said that you leave all MU'd Odyssey units enabled. I am running these guys with the B unit Odyssey off, and all seems good for now. This is a carryover from TMCC days when MUing engines did not work well with Odyssey switched on for more than one engine. This is the first time I have MU'd Legacy engines so it has been a bit of a learning curve. Thanks to all!

Rod

Legacy engines MU just fine with cruise on, I've never had an issue.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Legacy engines MU just fine with cruise on, I've never had an issue.

OK good to know.

So today another little anomaly surfaced. I first built the 3 engine lashup which worked fine, then the 2 engine lashup which also worked fine. Today I went to run the 3 engine version and it would not work. So I deleted the original train and rebuilt it, worked fine. But you guessed it, when I went to try the 2 engine version again, now it won't work. And vice versa when I rebuilt it. I thought these engines are supposed to be able to enter into more than one lashup? That doesn't seem to be the case at this address. any ideas?

Another weird thing; why does the handheld say "Cab 1 mode" when running these lashups?

Rod

I'm guessing if you use the same engine in a different lash-up, that might confuse things.  I confess that I've never done that, I never saw any reason to.