O Scale you need large amounts of real estate if you want a medium sized layout. Can you do O scale in a small area? Yes and why not. HO is more popular as is N scale due to $$ pricing and size. Many folks do not have a 20'x 50' basement. Price out Atlas O scale track package in their catalog for O scale 2 rail or 3 rail your in the thousands of dollars MSRP. N or HO Scales cheaper by comparison. As for trains being gone by 2041 didn't they say that in the 1960's with Lionel's Demise.
mwb:
Caustic soda seems to be the most used chemical in the most used paper making process called the "sulfate or kraft process."
Don't ask me for an in depth explanation as I'm only reading Volume 2 of Jeff Wilson's book on Industries along the tracks.
Al Hummel
Alan Hummel posted:Caustic soda seems to be the most used chemical in the most used paper making process called the "sulfate or kraft process."
Ok, so nothing really new or all that special - that's been transported in tank cars for a long time......
SEACOAST,
I remember when they had Lionel headed out then I stumbled onto HO at about age 10 & started following it,then stumbled onto a VAST EXPLOSION of what appeared to me to be a completely new & flourishing Lionel in 1977. I sat aside HO for a couple years when I bought up all Lionel,but after a while I realized I had double the amount of freight cars,diesels & sidings as compared to Lionel on a 4'x8' board so went back to HO where I stayed & bought up a vast empire of freight cars,diesels,cab's,etc,still set on my 4'x8' planning for that huge future layout. Now that's here with 50'x25' available with the usual intrusions such as water equipment,furnace,etc.
You're absolutely correct in all your observations about availability & price in all scales. I have most everything I need to start & complete my HO layout now,but am captured with the size of O scale,the sound from the diesels, plus lighting. I probably have 7 grand in O scale. All the buildings will need to be built by hand with cardboard boxes being used as "fillers" until I can get to that phase to do serious work. Then you get that nagging reminder,EVERYTHING is available in HO,buildings are available in kits,well I should say entire industries,so is the size advantage REALLY that superior an advantage over all the rest I'm leaving behind? If I let go of O scale,there's many freight cars & diesels that can't be replaced as they're not in current production & maybe never will be again,so I HAVE TO BE SURE.
If I do stay in HO,the time spent getting started in O,was great fun & will never be forgotten & there'll be days I will kick myself for staying in HO as I get older,(if I do,of course),but a person just has to accept the decision they make.
Thanks for the insight & summary that pretty much says it all,as many others have,also.
Al Hummel
Al,
Yes..Do whats best for you. I have a friend who has an outdoor Garden G scale layout that runs winter- summer here in NH. A smaller N scale indoor layout and larger HO layout..
MWB,
1 item(s) mentioned is the use of Hydrochloric & Sulfuric acids which would seem VERY HAZARDOUS to me,which are said to be in more use today than in the past. But I never inhaled Chlorine that I know of either. A toss of the coin as far as dangerous chemicals?
Al Hummel
Alan Hummel posted:1 item(s) mentioned is the use of Hydrochloric & Sulfuric acids which would seem VERY HAZARDOUS to me,which are said to be in more use today than in the past. But I never inhaled Chlorine that I know of either. A toss of the coin as far as dangerous chemicals?
It's all relative to me as a working bench chemist of too many decades of experience and all too many folks run around in total panic over all too much, 
Some even react in total panic to dihydrogen monoxide which is of course the cause of at least 300k deaths every year
Not a toss of the coin; pretty sure though you'd remember inhaling chlorine, 
I have fond memories of the day my one lab was filled with hydrochloric acid gas......
It seems to me that most O scalers think they have to run big steam - 4-8-4, 2-8-8-2 and anything larger. Why? For some reason O scale is synonymous with big time railroading and heavy main line trains. Again, why? O scale can be a GE 25 ton diesel pulling one 36' box car. Just a few questions...
tom yorke posted:It seems to me that most O scalers think they have to run big steam - 4-8-4, 2-8-8-2 and anything larger. Why? For some reason O scale is synonymous with big time railroading and heavy main line trains. Again, why? O scale can be a GE 25 ton diesel pulling one 36' box car. Just a few questions...
A logical opinion. However, in my case, I have WORKED on "big steam" (SP4449, UP 844 & UP 3985) and thus prefer LARGE steam locomotive models. To each his own.
mwb posted:Alan Hummel posted:1 item(s) mentioned is the use of Hydrochloric & Sulfuric acids which would seem VERY HAZARDOUS to me,which are said to be in more use today than in the past. But I never inhaled Chlorine that I know of either. A toss of the coin as far as dangerous chemicals?
It's all relative to me as a working bench chemist of too many decades of experience and all too many folks run around in total panic over all too much,
Not a toss of the coin; pretty sure though you'd remember inhaling chlorine,
Remembering back to my Hazmat cert... the reason that one hazmat car can make a key train. A tank car of LPG is dangerous (BLEVE explosion). A PIH/TIH tank car of chlorine is deadly (think Graniteville). One whiff of pool chlorine once gave me the not so nice thought of corrosive chlorine eating away my lungs.
Rule292 posted:mwb posted:Alan Hummel posted:1 item(s) mentioned is the use of Hydrochloric & Sulfuric acids which would seem VERY HAZARDOUS to me,which are said to be in more use today than in the past. But I never inhaled Chlorine that I know of either. A toss of the coin as far as dangerous chemicals?
It's all relative to me as a working bench chemist of too many decades of experience and all too many folks run around in total panic over all too much,
Not a toss of the coin; pretty sure though you'd remember inhaling chlorine,
Remembering back to my Hazmat cert... the reason that one hazmat car can make a key train. A tank car of LPG is dangerous (BLEVE explosion). A PIH/TIH tank car of chlorine is deadly (think Graniteville). One whiff of pool chlorine once gave me the not so nice thought of corrosive chlorine eating away my lungs.
Better living through chemistry.....
Tom, I believe the draw of o scale in general is the visual heft of the models, and the large steamers just have that in spades.
Seacoast posted:O Scale you need large amounts of real estate if you want a medium sized layout. Can you do O scale in a small area? Yes and why not. HO is more popular as is N scale due to $$ pricing and size. Many folks do not have a 20'x 50' basement. Price out Atlas O scale track package in their catalog for O scale 2 rail or 3 rail your in the thousands of dollars MSRP. N or HO Scales cheaper by comparison. As for trains being gone by 2041 didn't they say that in the 1960's with Lionel's Demise.
Actually I believe this to be a bit of a misnomer.
I have a theory that a model railroader will spend up to their budget, not their space. What do I mean? Take the 20x50 example... I would argue that it would be MUCH more expensive in N or HO because there is a big urge to model "more". More track, more scenery, etc... The same goes for Engines and rolling stock. They may be less expensive per unit, but overall you would own many more. Heck, I have about a dozen N scale engines and I don't even have a layout! They are so small they just fit in a box for someday when I might want to build a small N scale pike. I don't think scale plays a huge part in the cost of the hobby. You can do it on the cheap or expensively in any scale. Just saying...
jonnyspeed posted:Seacoast posted:O Scale you need large amounts of real estate if you want a medium sized layout. Can you do O scale in a small area? Yes and why not. HO is more popular as is N scale due to $$ pricing and size. Many folks do not have a 20'x 50' basement. Price out Atlas O scale track package in their catalog for O scale 2 rail or 3 rail your in the thousands of dollars MSRP. N or HO Scales cheaper by comparison. As for trains being gone by 2041 didn't they say that in the 1960's with Lionel's Demise.
Actually I believe this to be a bit of a misnomer.
I have a theory that a model railroader will spend up to their budget, not their space. What do I mean? Take the 20x50 example... I would argue that it would be MUCH more expensive in N or HO because there is a big urge to model "more". More track, more scenery, etc... The same goes for Engines and rolling stock. They may be less expensive per unit, but overall you would own many more. Heck, I have about a dozen N scale engines and I don't even have a layout! They are so small they just fit in a box for someday when I might want to build a small N scale pike. I don't think scale plays a huge part in the cost of the hobby. You can do it on the cheap or expensively in any scale. Just saying...
In part, I can agree with that except just about O scale modeler I know regardless of layout size has enough cars and engines to populate and re-populate that layout (and maybe their next one....) several times over having bought and bought "bargains" and then having bought yet more following that sage advice of "get these now before there are no more". You see lots of examples of the latter on tables at the Chicago meet,
In part, I can agree with that except just about O scale modeler I know regardless of layout size has enough cars and engines to populate and re-populate that layout (and maybe their next one....) several times over having bought and bought "bargains" and then having bought yet more following that sage advice of "get these now before there are no more".
Marty.
Did you sneak into my house one night and check out the car and loco inventory you could have at least woke me up and I would have made you a cup of coffee.
Roo.
jonnyspeed posted:Seacoast posted:O Scale you need large amounts of real estate if you want a medium sized layout. Can you do O scale in a small area? Yes and why not. HO is more popular as is N scale due to $$ pricing and size. Many folks do not have a 20'x 50' basement. Price out Atlas O scale track package in their catalog for O scale 2 rail or 3 rail your in the thousands of dollars MSRP. N or HO Scales cheaper by comparison. As for trains being gone by 2041 didn't they say that in the 1960's with Lionel's Demise.
Actually I believe this to be a bit of a misnomer.
I have a theory that a model railroader will spend up to their budget, not their space. What do I mean? Take the 20x50 example... I would argue that it would be MUCH more expensive in N or HO because there is a big urge to model "more". More track, more scenery, etc... The same goes for Engines and rolling stock. They may be less expensive per unit, but overall you would own many more. Heck, I have about a dozen N scale engines and I don't even have a layout! They are so small they just fit in a box for someday when I might want to build a small N scale pike. I don't think scale plays a huge part in the cost of the hobby. You can do it on the cheap or expensively in any scale. Just saying...
Like anything you do not have to go nuts and build a monster layout.
Smaller scales are less IMO. 20x50' N scale layout in O2 or 3 rail is big $$. Friend has a large in my opinion N scale 2' x20' layout with a helix and staging yard with a single main line, not very complex but interesting to run. Code 55 switches are $20+, his 10 dcc engines are $100 range. His rolling stock he buys new or used for a fraction of O scale new or used. His layout is on the "tour de chooch" NMRA layout tour ever year.His Dcc system is the only item I see that is comparably priced the same as an O command control system.
My O 3 rail Engines are $400-1200 a piece, Switches are $80-120 and the 2x20' layout is substantially larger with my scaled up larger curves. Take a 3rd rail Or 3 rail Lionel Big Boy $1500-2000 a piece, N scale $350 with sound. An Athern HO Big Boy with sound is $550. How about a brass O scale Pacific steam engine Kohs or other in great condition$$$$. Compared to N or HO, smaller and priced much less.
No comparasion price wise in my opinion unles you have a giant Spaghetti bowl of track and buy and horde tons of new rolling stock and buy and run triple headed big boys. The down side of N scale is the tiny size, an issue for those with hand eye coordination issues.
Hi
i have modeled in all three scales and my experience has been each scale costs about the same in the same space... The smaller you go, the more you need to fill the space! You have to just pick the scale you like to work with.
I see where some have mentioned Oscale is on its way out... I don't know how you can say that. Atlas' new container cars are great and the preorders are pretty huge as I understand it. They just released 20 foot containers and 53 footers are on the way also. I think that would suggest that it is not dying, but growing. I would not be surprised if we see the BMLA N and HO spine cars that Atlas bought in O next. They would be great. I think we are heading in the right direction.
Just my two cents.
Don
Roo posted:In part, I can agree with that except just about O scale modeler I know regardless of layout size has enough cars and engines to populate and re-populate that layout (and maybe their next one....) several times over having bought and bought "bargains" and then having bought yet more following that sage advice of "get these now before there are no more".
Marty.
Did you sneak into my house one night and check out the car and loco inventory you could have at least woke me up and I would have made you a cup of coffee.
Roo.
I'll take you up on a cup of Joe next time I'm down under.....
Size is actually a killer in smaller scales (started in N in 1979).
My first, large N-scale layout (mainline done and 10% "scenicked" before I had to move) was 16' x 25' and L-shaped. I was looking at a lot of scenery work, especially trees. For some reason, O seems more do-able perhaps because it's fewer trees per foot. 
But then I'm also doing a mostly industrial switching layout.
I still have an N loop that's about 2' x 12'. In N I run modern equipment and a train of 20 double stacks and multiple engines. It's relaxing to watch them run until there's a hitch and then I am not happy with how relatively large my ten thumbs have become relative to 1:160 trains.
I find 2R captivating in a different way. I find the plethora of detailed HO engines etc tempting but I see it as a visual compromise, especially for modern trains. than what I can run in N. An appearance by the SF Super Chief, looks more "realistic" to me than in would in HO. It's hard to quantify what I mean. There are so many examples of well-executed, artistic HO layouts available to see online. I think a lot of their success is isolating scenes for viewing which is something with which I need to do a better job.
Brass trains.com seems to be consistently selling fine and highly priced models quite well. This and the offerings from yoder and protocraft tell me o scale is not dead. A pal who attended York spoke of the shear volume of people attending. Yes, fewer folks model or have hobbies, but there are still many that do. Younger ho guys may move up as they age as well. I struggle to decal in o--- I don't know how one does it smaller.
D TUURI,
Hi Don it's been a while!
O scale is by far tops to work with. MTH has rerun some of their paper hi cubes in CSX & I have both numbers.
These new cars have continuity stripes too,so they're keeping up with the times.
1 comment made by a modeler on here sticks with me,which was that manufacturers of O Scale are seeing a decline in O modelers,thus they will be faced with a somewhat negative view of new projects for the future or even renewed schemes on existing models,in O scale which's logical from a manufacturing point of view.
Like you,I see Atlas is adding new numbers as well as 2 NEW schemes to their 25,500 tankers which is a GOOD sign.
I guess it all comes down to finances,available space & what you want to do as far as modeling in that area. Like many,I've been in Lionel as a boy,then HO,then returned to Lionel,then back to HO,then started buying in N but chickened out of that because I was missing size & detail,so went back to HO for 30+ years,now am in O "Scale" for the 1st time.
It also doesn't seem practical if Atlas is looking to get out of O Scale anytime soon,that they'd have bought up some of the Weaver rights. If Lionel would make conversion trucks for freight & 2rail conversion possible for their loco's as MTH has done,they'd get a lot more business,& in time could buy out Atlas rights if Atlas quits. The introduction of Lionel to 2rail would be a BIG boost for my moral,as they have a lot of cars I want.
Take care,time to head to the basement to work on the trains.
Al Hummel
I have been in this wonderful hobby for 60 years. I have to say this. There is enough stuff out there for everyone. What is not coming out from the manufacturers is being made available from older guys selling off excess, estate sales, train meets and eBay. Just enjoy the hobby. There will come a time when you have too much and want to downsize. The small dealers and manufacturers will come and go. The large manufacturers will have good times and slow times. They will always have trouble with their builders. Try scratch building or kitbashing rolling stock an structures. Purchase used of broken items and parts and repair them. They are all over the place. Next time you go to a train show look under the tables. It's all fun.
As far as space limitations in O Scale is concerned there are other options. Traction layouts are a lot of fun. They are smaller and the trains are shorter. I have seen Many HO layouts where the person has run out of space.
Buy, Sell, Trade, Build.
In essence the future of O Scale or any scale is You.
I agree with NATE; completely!
O scale size allows everybody to build, scratch, kitbash; and more, you have the pleasure to possess your own models; it's great, no? Even it's not sometimes factory quality; but in each modeller, a builder can wake up!
So, build all what you wish!
jpv69 from France
jpv69 posted:I agree with NATE; completely!
O scale size allows everybody to build, scratch, kitbash; and more, you have the pleasure to possess your own models; it's great, no? Even it's not sometimes factory quality; but in each modeller, a builder can wake up!
So, build all what you wish!
jpv69 from France
That's what a lot of S Scalers have been saying.
Look how well that's working out...
Rusty
We attended the Pennsylvania RR technical and historical society meeting this weekend. Lots of good modeling in the contest room (in ALL scales) and lots for sale in the trading hall.
I hadn't been to a PRRT&HS (or EPTC) meet for many years but what stuck out in my mind is how much more realistic O scale models looked as compared to HO or N.
Boxcar door fixtures that were a blob on well-detailed HO scale resin kits or nonexistent on N scale models were real looking on O scale boxcars. Ditto for structure kits. HO had tons of good stuff available but O just looked more substantial and more real.
No offense, to each his own but to me How Ordinary isn't for me any more.
YMMV
Enjoy what you really like and don't look into more than one day ahead of yourself! 
Patrick1544 posted:Enjoy what you really like and don't look into more than one day ahead of yourself!
And remember that today is just yesterday's tomorrow,
O scale, and more specifically 2 Rail, has always been known as the builders scale. In that realm the builder in all of us can find abundant, and fulfilling reward in the construction of the many components that comprise a model railroad. Indeed even door latches take on a quality that cannot be denied. If one measures O scale by what is available to buy verse to build then I feel the true value of this scale is being unfairly overlooked. There are plenty of supplies, and models for the enthusiast who is willing to step beyond the collectors mindset and pursue this builders scale with the interest all those who took it up as a hobby post WWII...a time when supplies were indeed scarce, but ingenuity became the new drumbeat for those who wanted model railroads. The fact one may not be able to order a model of the latest container car lettered for a favorite carrier should never be the measuring stick for O Scale future...go build something.
Bob
flanger posted:O scale, and more specifically 2 Rail, has always been known as the builders scale. In that realm the builder in all of us can find abundant, and fulfilling reward in the construction of the many components that comprise a model railroad. Indeed even door latches take on a quality that cannot be denied. If one measures O scale by what is available to buy verse to build then I feel the true value of this scale is being unfairly overlooked. There are plenty of supplies, and models for the enthusiast who is willing to step beyond the collectors mindset and pursue this builders scale with the interest all those who took it up as a hobby post WWII...a time when supplies were indeed scarce, but ingenuity became the new drumbeat for those who wanted model railroads. The fact one may not be able to order a model of the latest container car lettered for a favorite carrier should never be the measuring stick for O Scale future...go build something.
Bob
There isn't any way around the fact that O doesn't offer train-fulls of modern equipment. But one of the best ways around the space issue is garden or outdoor railroading.
I bet you could make a 365 day a year railroad to run that could/would have long trains pulled by multiple unit consists. Run them on battery power and make a few of your loads (or MTs) battery cars. Mount a camera in the lead unit and put the effort you would have spent superdetailing or building structures into building a signaling system that works in a prototype manner... you could set up a "drone" freight that ran on it's own and you'd be happily off operating your train like you were in the right hand cab seat.
Rain might cause a problem with durability but it would be a lot of fun building a prototype operating rotary and keeping the tracks open during a snow storm.
Simon ,
The state of the art layout is super. A lot of time and effort not to mention money and talent went into it. State of the art is not for everyone. Down and dirty or archaic still has a place in the hobby. Yes DCC, remote, sound, computer driven, etc is great and you can run the thing by yourself. There are some folks that started years ago and built their empire. Then torn it down and reworked it and enjoyed and still enjoy it. I just recently changed my yard back to a manual operation. I took a transformer apart and installed a brass controller handle to it and mounted the entire unit in a vertical box that replicates a an electric train controller. It has a reverse handle to change direction. I guess you can call it archaic, but i am having so much fun with it. I installed a switch to operate the yard remotely if I wish but I find I leave it on manual mostly. I will keep on going until some time in the future I will go upstairs and never return. If my layout survives and will be discovered in my basement some 45 years later. They can run a story about it. Hopefully the story will say, That old guy must have had many years of pleasure.
This hobby is for everyone that wants it and in whatever way they get pleasure from it. Sometimes I like to just sit there and look at mine.
The photos of the old layout are not sad to look at. Think about it. Hopefully part or sections of it can be saved and reused and live on. If not just think about the years of fun the fellow had.
Be happy and enjoy your trains.
Nate
I expect O scale to continue in the future as it has been all along. As far as I can tell, it was always a hobby for adults in the 35-up age range. It will probably continue as a great hobby mainly for persons of middle age. The future of this hobby is not strongly youth based but as this group gets married, settles down raises a family, and the kids grow up, there may be a new generation of modelers that will enter the hobby and help it thrive.
Back in the early 80s, when I first got into O scale, things looked bleak. Some doomers and gloomers were b*tching about O scale dying....well it didn't! And it will be around long after this forum post is dead and buried. The thing that will HURT O scale is the manufacturers will refuse to listen to us 2 rail modelers with suggestions of new models, or improvements to existing ones. A certain company from Hillside, New Jersey has someone in charge of new product development who only cares to do Santa Fe related items, and refuses to listen to the idea of ditching the crappy China drives in favor of a better single motor drive. I understand the fact that tooling costs are prohibitive in some cases, and a lot of manufacturers of fine N and HO models would like to do O scale, but just cannot justify to expenses at this time. But still there is hope that someday, one of these companies will step up to the plate and step into the O market. Just my .02 cents.....
I disagree. There are manufacturers who can supply exactly what you need. If you do not like the economical and effective "China" drive, there are at least two suppliers who can provide a state-of-the-art replacement.
If most of the money is in Warbonnet, that is where profit- oriented suppliers will be. I just did some work involving Diesels - I got PRR Diesels, because it made no difference to me, and the supplier wanted to keep the Warbonnets because they would sell better.
If anybody is dissatisfied with their high end brass Warbonnet PA, and would rather have PRR, contact me.
I am not holding my breath. The Warbonnets are far more popular.
