What is up with Lionel's quality?

doesn't matter who you spend your money with, this end of the hobby has NO Q/C. on the bright side, Lionel has the parts and a real fast repair turn around. 

https://ogrforum.com/t...will-not-stay-closed

Here is the link- notice the tabs that can be filed on the coupler lever... you will be good to go.

What is wrong with your Legacy engine?

i would send it back to them if still under warrenty.    My reefers did the same thing they fixed it     We pay enough not to settle

The issue with my loco is under another post, however with the help from another member I may have it resolved, but I'm still testing it.

I'm charging my Dremel now to see if I can file down the tab that J Daddy suggested.

https://ogrforum.com/t...ments-at-low-speeds?

I have had problems with 90% of the new Lionel engines that I bought in the last year. I posted on this forum only to have it deleted. With that said, Lionel has a great warrenty service and turn around to get your trains back up and running. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong the OPs question.  It's simply a statement of his recent buying experience.

Sometimes, the truth hurts.....but it's still the truth, regardless of how popular it may or may not be with some people.

When you're bored some time, go to Amazon.com and check out some of the comments on some of Lionel's newer products, especially the RTR sets that were sold around Christmas.

IMHO, it's not "bashing" if the comments are politely worded and based on real-world experience.

BNSF-Matt posted:

The issue with my loco is under another post, however with the help from another member I may have it resolved, but I'm still testing it.

I'm charging my Dremel now to see if I can file down the tab that J Daddy suggested.

https://ogrforum.com/t...ments-at-low-speeds?

BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL.  Your well meaning intention may void your warranty.

IMHO, YOU shouldn't have to do anything to fix these items....given what you paid for them.

Well it seems with the help of others I did manage to resolve the locomotive by just tightening some mount screws, the reefer coupler seems to be fixed as well by making a small adjustment to the tab.

Oh and the Lionel command switch I bought yesterday that I installed today - yup I just had to fix that as well, an exposed wire was making contact with the bottom plate when weight was applied over the switch and causing a spark show - a little electrical tape to save the day. (that makes 2 bad command switches on the list)

I think I should take a break from trains for the rest of the day, and maybe have a drink or two.

I appreciated everyone's input on this post, maybe I just needed to vent a bit.

Glad to hear it, Matt.  Adding some extra electrical tape and tightening some mount screws won't make you pull your hair out.

It's the shipping back and forth on problem pieces....that don't ever seem to get fully resolved....that drive you crazy.  Doesn't sound like you'll be in that group this time around.

Yep, sometimes it just takes a little tweaking and things are as good as new.

I do better bringing a 60 yr old engine home from a a show, putting it on the track and watch it run.  Still shouldn't have to do that mickey mouse stuff on something out of the box.  I hope they build their military equipment like that.

I agree 100% with BNSF MATT, as it gets really old getting a new Train Item and it doesn't work right out of the box...With BTO, most dealers just hand us our trains without taking time to check them.  I purchase my trains from my Hobby Shop as he takes great care of any negative issues.  Also, LIONEL has been super great at fixing any issues With great turn around time...I think this is a great thread and is a help to us all in fine tuning our trains. Whether it be a 1K Locomotive, or a $75 train car, they need to work....

Good post, it's a Fun Hobby....Lets go run trains!!!  Wow...

An update to my command switch that I thought was working, well I decided to run my train one more time and the locomotive causes a short every time it runs over the switch. I opened it up looking for any exposed wires and also made sure the plate screws were not causing a problem with pinching. It responds fine to command controls, but it must have a short on the board so I'm packing up the switch and bringing it back to my hobby shop.

I'm tired and I plan on emailing Lionel directly about all my issues. Maybe my voice can't make a difference, but it's worth a shot.

 Matt is taking a good course of action in contacting Lionel.  We don't live in a bubble and folks at Lionel need to know about these issues. 

The good news is that Lionel does have a second to none repair service.  They should be able to address all the issues that you haven't.

(edited and deleted on my own following posts to hopefully maintain the thread.  Since i was quoted you can see how I got here)

MartyE posted:

I disagree with anyone who would say that OGR would delete this thread.  IMO the OP did a good job of laying out the facts without be disrespectful.  9/10 most of these threads start off like this, it's the follow up posts that usually are the cause for deletion.  Matt is taking a good course of action in contacting Lionel.  We don't live in a bubble and folks at Lionel need to know about these issues. 

The good news is that Lionel does have a second to none repair service.  They should be able to address all the issues that you haven't.

My post was deleted from this thead, so I suppose we disagree.

MartyE posted:

audi posted:

My post was deleted from this thread, so I suppose we disagree.

I guess we do.  Seems like many posts have survived so maybe it was something you said.

Of course it was something I said

If I post my opinion of Lionel quality control they will delete the thread LOL! It has happened 3 times now.

TRAIN NERD AL

MartyE posted:

Well then I suppose most of these will be deleted as they have nothing to do with Matt's original post which is probably the problem with most of these QC  threads.  But if it does you won't find me whining that my post was deleted.  In the big picture it just doesn't matter enough.

hardly whining. My post did address the op issue.

Some of these high end train items are in the cost range of High Frequency "shortwave" ham and marine two way radios.  If these radios had the QC issues I see on this and other threads, these radio companies would be out of business.

What I can't understand is the attitude that the buyer somehow is at fault because they fuss because a few nuts, bolts and wires are loose-or missing. Seems that you are supposed to accept these trivial things meekly and not make a fuss. Of course, posts should be reasoned and not discourteous-that can come later.

The greatest problem is that we are a captive audience,we keep buying so QC is not there,stop buying and the climate will change.

Mikey

It's sad that in America, censorship extends down to the level of flat out truthfulness, all for the sake of money or protecting the cash flow.  A smart manufacturer would WANT to know this information as well as the true pulse of the market place.  A forum like this could be a source of vital product information.  And I understand the deletion of a slanderous rant against another entity.  But I thought the BNSF-MATT info was well presented with a legitmate question.  Granted, at this point I am only reading what I am allowed to read.

As a result, I only buy tried and true units, that are used from individuals with a guarantee, preferably at a train show where it can be inspected and at least run on a test track.  Or I buy from a known friend or dealer who will back up the product with a guarantee. 

Buying today's modern trains with electronics is similar to buying a new car.  At such a high price you do expect all the gadgets and everything to work.  It's unlikely you would see this kind of quality in a cell phone.  The red ring of death fiasco on one company's video game a few years ago has kept me from buying any of their products since.  Yes they did fix it, but at such a pain and such a high price.

Steve:  I get what you're saying but this Forum is owned by a private entity of one type or another.....so they can edit or modify what they see fit.

And, FWIW, this thread has been allowed to run its course for the most part.  The Moderators did not shut it down, obviously.

So, even though it's Monday, maybe they should be cut a "little" slack? 

Lionel does have a good repair service but they also have to work on out of the box quality issues.

Bob C.

I did email Lionel directly last night and I was truthful, but professional about it because the fact of the matter is that I'm a huge fan of Lionel and I would like it to stay that way moving forward.

This forum has been a fantastic source for me in all aspects to getting advice, solving issues, and even buying and selling a few things. My intent was not to bash Lionel, but to just ask an honest question about my expectations.

Actually I believe this thread has been kept alive so we can share what we learned, and Matt can get back to running trains?

The rest of the thread has been turned into non value dribble which has been way over discussed.

Toys are not fully plug and play, even toys over 1k.  And the good news is Lionel will stand behind their products.

I would challenge the belief that Lionel has good customer service.  I bought all 6 cars of the new "Olympian" set in UP yellow, accepting the fact that the inclusion of the vista dome car was just a bad joke.  However, upon receipt I discovered that the interiors of the coaches and the dining car are not only wrong but place partitions and cabinets directly in the middle of windows, see attached.  If the defects were not obvious from trackside, I would not have cared but such glaring discrepancies are unacceptable.

After explaining the issue in great detail to the young lady at customer service, in an exchange of emails that spanned several days, I was offered replacement cars.  She couldn't or wouldn't understand that a replacement with the same defects was not a satisfactory resolution.  In the end she stated that there was nothing else she could do for me.  I gave up and went to work with Zona Saw and Dremel tool.

There was one other issue that I did not bring to their attention but should be mentioned in passing, the "Hiawatha" banner on the rear of the Skytop was hanging loose and bent.  Though the repair required disassembly of the car, it was replaced and reglued without too much fuss.

So, here's the body count:

2 Coaches - Men's Lounge, partitions mid-window,

1 Dining Car - partitions and cabinets mid-windows,

1 Skytop Obs - "Hiawatha" banner,

1 Vista Dome - the Milwaukee Road didn't own any.

Thus, five out of six cars have defects and four out of six cars have serious design defects.  Price: around $900.  Lionel's response?  You fill in the blank.

I won't be fooled again.

aussteve posted:

Buying today's modern trains with electronics is similar to buying a new car.  At such a high price you do expect all the gadgets and everything to work.  It's unlikely you would see this kind of quality in a cell phone. 

I've seen this comparison to model trains many times over the years and I just don't see it.  I have a cousin that has a 2014 Ford Focus who has taken the car back at least twice for transmission issues, and a fellow bike rider who used a loaner car a couple months ago because the dealership could not figure out how to fix the electrical problems in her 2014/15 Lincoln NKZ.  I've replaced my Samsung S6 twice (let me say that again-TWICE); 1st for getting way too hot to touch during charging; 2nd for a buzz and picture shake when using the camera.  I had to replaced my new FiOS cable box because of picture distortion.

Toy trains?  I commented a while back that my LionChief+ RS-3 wouldn't run; turned out to be operator error and it runs great.  So, I have 9 Legacy and LionChief engines, two Legacy 990s, and various TMCC and LCS components and my only complaint is one noisy fan on the Centipede AA (which does really bug me that they couldn't fix so it is disconnected). 

I am glad to hear that Lionel's service department is top notch.  Should I ever have a problem like the OP I will work with Lionel to get it fix (or maybe try the fix myself).

Matt,

Hope you get good response from Lionel. 

I've had stretches similar to your's where almost every purchase, in a given time period, has to either go back to Lionel for work or requires me to open it up to fix what shouldn't have been broken. These stretches usually cause me to put the trains away for a few months and question my involvement in the hobby.

However, as bad as the out of the box gambles can be, Lionel's customer service does make it as painless as possible with their quick repair turnaround. And I have had stretches of new product being just fine with no issues. It seems to run in streaks for me.

I'm currently in the process of requesting either service or replacement smoke units for my Lionel Legacy NKP 765 and Polar Express Berkshires. They both burned out after a year. A friend of mine with a Legacy Challenger with smoking whistle talked to Lionel as he was having issues with his smoke units and the tech admitted that the design was all wrong from the start. I myself have opened the engines to change the wicks and I would have to agree that the partitioning of the two smoke chambers between the stack and whistle smoke can unequal amounts of fluid to both units.

Lionel is making great things but I think they rushed to get products released before they worked out all the technical bugs.

I gave up on LIONEL numerous times. I only want the Lionmaster locos and that is it pretty much

I did get my switch replaced today by my shop, in fact before I left they insisted that we test it before I walked out the door. We setup some test track with the switch in the middle and Tim took a similar locomotive off the case and we ran it a few times to make sure it was good.

I do have to say that my local shop has been very helpful with the things I couldn't fix myself.

This is from my post from another section here in this Topic: As Follows:

I ordered two Lionel Legacy ES44AC Engines in Santa Fe Livery. After waiting for them to be delivered to me, I finally was able to run these engines on the club layout that I belong to.

First problem was that the thirteen K-Line Hi-Level Passenger Cars and these two engines used 19 volts and 9.8 amps as displayed on the display panel of a MTH Z-4000 transformer.

So, I purchased LED Light Strips to retrofit the K-Line Stream Lighting that was installed.

The cars, using the K-Line numbering for the cars, are as follows:

Transition Car #3482, Hi-Level Step Down Car # 535, Two Bi-Level Cars # 526, Bi-Level Car # 529, Two Diner Cars # 651, Two Bi-Level Cars # 536, Bi-Level Chair Car # 529, Hi-Level Step Down Car # 535, Transition Car # 3482, and the Mountaineer Business Car.

After the conversions, the engines and the modified passenger cars displayed 18 volts and 3.8 amps on the Z-4000 transformer.

Now, the club layout has two different lines. The Red Line is the one that is built as a line with passing sidings. The Blue Line is one built where one train will follow the other several blocks apart.

On the Red Line when the engines are turned into the sidings, the front truck of the lead engine jumps the switch and, of course, displays the red light for a short. We removed the following cars to lighten the weight the Legacy Engines were pulling. The are as follows: Two Bi-Level Cars # 536, Diner Car # 651, and one Bi-Level Car # 526. With the less amount of weight on the engines, it still caused the lead engine truck to jump any switch it was set from through to turning in.

After several attempts, we switched to the Blue Line. This line is setup as a train following another with several blocks separating each one with less switches. Using the same consist with the four cars removed, the two engines were able to pull the passenger car load.

Now, the following questions.

Question One - With Two Engines - I should have been able to pull all the cars. I am very upset that two engines could not pull this load. You would think that two engines should have easily pulled this load.

Question Two - I will try the full consist with two MTH Dash 9 engines. If this consist works, I would be surprised if a different manufacturers engines can pull more load.

I will post another reply when I try out the new consist as stated in question two. If two MTH engines can pull the full consist and Lionel's cannot, I would not be inclined to purchase Lionel products in the future.

BNSF-Matt posted:

I did get my switch replaced today by my shop, in fact before I left they insisted that we test it before I walked out the door. We setup some test track with the switch in the middle and Tim took a similar locomotive off the case and we ran it a few times to make sure it was good.

I do have to say that my local shop has been very helpful with the things I couldn't fix myself.

A good LHS makes a big difference. Glad you were able to exchange the switch there.

TrainWizard5972 posted:

I'm currently in the process of requesting either service or replacement smoke units for my Lionel Legacy NKP 765 and Polar Express Berkshires. They both burned out after a year. .

Funny you should mention that but I have the first Legacy 765....the one without Whistle Steam.....and it's been nearly flawless.  One of my favorite locos of all time.

My only current steamer with Whistle Steam is the Legacy Santa Fe #3751....although a Heavy Mike is on its way to me.  When the 3751 works, it's awesome.  But it went back to Lionel while under warranty for its smoke unit to be replaced.  It came back, functioned for a short while, and now the smoke unit is completely toast....and I have to fix it on my dime.  Somehow.

My sample size is obviously small.  But me thinks that many of the QC issues on the steamers started to appear with the advent of Whistle Steam.  And if we go back several years, Lionel was actually going to cancel the effect on all but the Vision Line locos.  I can't believe I'm writing this....but maybe they should have?

Taking this one step further, anyone else notice that the smoke units on the diesels (which I rarely use) don't seem to have the failure rates of the Legacy Steamers with whistle steam?  Color me ironic.

My apologies for the tangent.....

The thing that irks me is the cost of shipping a defective new product back to Lionel for service. On a locomotive, you are looking at $20+ minimum. So you are aggravated that the item doesn't work and then aggravated at having to pay another $25 to get it fixed. 

Dave Warburton,

   Sometimes it is not Lionel that causes many of the loose or out of line problems that we have to tweek after receiving delivery, many times it's because the shipper is so rough when delivering our trains.  I do not know how the shipper did it but even my Legacy Shay, with it's big metal back stars, was damaged in shipment.  I repaired the damage myself, rather than ship it back to Lionel for further repair work.  My 249 Tin Plate engine was handled so roughly in UPS shipment, that Guns is now having to replace the entire frame on the old engine, and repair the new ERR upgrade.  Many many times it's not Lionel that is at fault for what is happening to our trains.  IMO the newer UPS workers are no where near as work conscious as the older workers, and it's now starting showing up in everything they ship.  I especially asked Guns not to ship my 249 Tin Plate Engine & Tender back to me via UPS when he completes his repair work, the FedEx boys have been doing a much better job in my case.

PCRR/Dave