What Power Supply Do You Use For 2-Rail Engines?

When I was looking at DC, I was looking at this one:

http://www.modelrectifier.com/...ct-view.asp?ID=12154

I'm considering it as I recently purchased a straight DC 44-ton switcher. The other engines are MTH and can run on 2-rail AC.

 I use AC with the Lionel 180w bricks and the MTH Z1000 bricks. I run MTH's DCS.

I have a couple of large DC packs that I use with G scale two rail by Bridgewerks. I also have a simple 24v DC supply that Tank gave me that actually works fantastic. I thought it scrambled the DCS signal, but it was other things going on.

 I imagine there are a lot of ones you could use for what you want, and with a simple bridge rectifier if they were AC ones. I do that with a Z1000 brick and throttle for testing stuff.

  The factor would be how many engines are running at one time and how many lighted cars? I'd factor about an amp and a half (1-2?) for each engine without smoke. Some cars draw a lot. Move all the other stuff onto a different pack, like switch motors and building lights, if it's too small.

http://www.thegmlenterprises.com/

Works wonderful, no humming at low speeds.

my 2 cents.

AG.

I use an MTH Z4000 with an external bridge rectifier and DPDT toggle for direction control on one side.  The other side I left AC.  This way I can run the little bit of 3 rail AC stuff I have left and the DC (both O scale and G scale) stuff I have from the same controller.  And it works very well.

Rick

I used the GML Enterprises throttles mentioned above before I went to DCC a few years ago.   I had 4 6 amp versions with memory for walk around.   Which means you could unplug the handheld and move to the next station without interrupting the train.   They stand behind their products and give you a 5 year warranty.    They will maintain the 12VDC until the breaker goes at 6 amps.   Many power packs begin to loose voltage as the amperage draw goes up.

http://www.thegmlenterprises.com/

I second a modern 3 rail AC power supply like the Z-4000 with bridge rectifiers for DC. They have plenty of power and a reasonable cost per watt.

Note that NMRA Standard 9 calls for DC power supplies to be able to put out not less than 12 volts at full throttle and the maximum anticipated current load.  The NMRA Recommended Practice 9 calls for up to 16 volts from DC power supplies and that is a very good idea in the era of dual mode sound decoders.

I use a 24 Volt stepdown, a small Variac, a Radio Shack bridge rectifier, some gauges, switches, a big capacitor, and circuit breakers.  They are cheap enough that I have one at the layout, one at the workbench, one in the garage, and one at the airport.

Thanks guys!

It looks like there's many different ways "to get there" from your answers.

I looked at the GML site and from the comments above, it appears I could use a Lionel 180w brick (18vac out) connected to the GML Base Unit.  I also have a MTH Z750 brick (21vac out), is that too much voltage?

How good is the slow speed with the GML set?

I'm still 3-rail, but considering 2-rail.  I've actually run a couple of my 3-rail engines (Williams USRA brass Mike and Weaver 4-6-0) with just the DC motor installed using an old Troller Transamp 1 (1 amp) HO power supply.  I connected the Transamp 1 to the outer and center rail and left the center rollers in place.

All worked, but the slow speed was a bit jerky (the Transamp 1 must be at least 20 years old).

I haven't done much reading on how DCS works with 2-rail, but my intention is to get away from as much of the electronics inside the engines as possible, yet keep lighting circuit of some type.  The only lighting unit I saw on the GML site was for a caboose or passenger cars.

When I was in HO I built an handheld throttle for walk-around control and it worked fine.  What would the minimum amp require be for O scale?  None of my current passenger cars or cabooses have lights and if I ever re-add them it'll be LEDs anyway.  Of course anything I currently have would have to be converted to 2-rail.

Bob Delbridge,

 the GML gives a nice quiet slow speed. I say quiet because some of DC system tend to make the motor hum, but this one not.

Andre.

The best IMO is Dallee.  I use the Engineer and Yard Master.

MRC and GML are also very good options.

You mention constant lighting.   With straight DC, you can only do lighting with the power on.    there is a very simple circuit to use 1.5v bulbs that give constant lighting as long as power is on, in other words the lights will stay constant as the voltage changes.   But if the throttle is shut off totally, the lights go out.   No power, no lights.

As for input AC to the GMLs, you need to consult the installation sheet.   I think 21 may be too much, but I don't remember for sure.   

Also, you probably don't need over 12v on the track unless you are planning to run slot cars!   However, you need a power supply with the circuitry to maintain 12v as the amps draw increases.    Simple power packs often do not do this, hence people will put 16v on the tracks so they end up with 10-12 when the get some trains running and drawing current.

Thanks Andre

Tom, I looked at the Dallee site and it appears neither of those throttles are in production at this time.

Good topic guys!

I've been using an old power pack that I had left over from my dad's old company(Progressive Electronics) that we used on our old HO layout. It works well for the minimal track I've got down on the layout, pretty much being able to test things and run an engine back and forth for my son. I want to say it's got a max output of 16V or so, but I'm a bit clueless as to what sort of amperage it can handle. Not to hijack the thread, but what's the procedure to figure out what amp load a supply can handle?

I also purchased an MRC Tech 6 to try out the DCC operation on the two equipped units I have. I still haven't decided if I want to go all out DCC or DC or a mixture of both. I'm kind of leaning towards the straight DC as that is what I'm used to.

CN_Hogger

Me too (unless I really go hog wild and go battery power).

Your comment about minimal track got me thinking.  Anybody experience any degradation in power due to amount of track?

Tom,  what do you mean when you say "purest form of power" and how much better is it?  I think that's what was on my mind when I started this topic, how good an output do I need for the motors/lighting systems we use?

I saw that sale offer for the GML unit (complete setup I think) and didn't know I'd be peering into the dark side this soon

I don't know what "pure" power is either, but for smooth DC all you need is a bridge rectifier and a giant capacitor.  What feeds that can be a Lionel transformer, a battery, or almost anything.  I restricted most of mine to 12 Volts, and am now sorry I do not have a full 16.  The Variac has a 130 Volt tap, so I use that to boost the 12 volt step down a bit.  You actually lose a bit of voltage going from AC to DC.

Mine were built by my father-in-law,

I may go get a picture to share later.

No problems with the MRC 6200 I picked up for $30 @ a train show.

Allan

Thanks guys.

I'm leaning towards the GML handheld, that way I can use the 180 brick I have if I want, or even the MTH Z750 brick.

When I get bored, I take a look at the  board and see what is going on.  There has been quite a bit written re:  what I will comment.

I personally have chosen  what Dave Vergone  did with out-door  3 and then 2 rail O.  He ran  self contained battery  R/C control.  I  took his concept and  made it fit my needs, knowing absolutely anything about  electronics.  I know very about  electrical, also.

I have written about my work and discoveries using  LiPo batteries [ quite small and rather large power].  I used, from England, model boat  ECM and other power control accessories, and  from US sources   new ?.? mhz transmitter.

I just went  d/s  to check it out, I have not run it in months [been busy with another project] and turned it on and  did some switching  , no cleaning of rails etc, and  away it went. Very little buzz/hum or annoying sounds, just runs.

You can see it  run or take a ride on a flat car it is pushing by going to youtube search for  ed reutling or reutlung, and   near the  first  short videos   you will see a  44 tonner, which has the   entire  battery and electronics  in the hood , of a scale [ oversized brass imports] not over wide  hoods loco.

You can also  click on reutling under my no pic of me and  read back in the  archives more about it.

Ed Reutling

Thanks Ed

I took the time and look over your posts, here's some highlights of what you said:

(January 2012) - I am running Self Contained battery R/C in my 44 Tonner. If the stuff will fit in that it should fit in most everything you boys are talking that you have and are curious if it will stand up to your needs

I have a 2 amp ESC-R which is good for 12 volts. There are also 5 Amp/12 ESC and larger capacity, but really not that much larger.

The brand I am using Action-electronics.co.uk has nice controllable speed graduations.

I am using a 2.4 ghz transmitter/receiver, which allows me to run different locos with a single transmitter. I am not sure about double heading.

Power is LI-PO battery 7.4 volts .5 amp. I'm running just a 1 amp motor in the 44

I finally ran the batter down to where the battery protector [absolutely necessary with li-po] shut the power off. About 4 hours worth on a small battery--the smallest available [everything is jammed into a 44 hoods] Recharge time some where around 35 minutes.

I am working with a combination of both 1st and latest generation tech parts.

(March 2012) - I use a  TACTIC  TTX240 R/C

          component-shop.co.uk  6500mA lipo charger

          7.4V  45000mA lipo battery

          action-electronics.co.uk  condor 2A ECS

          battery eliminator

          local hobby shop [R/C]  Smart-Stop Lipo Battery Protector

Also watched a few of your videos (gotta love that Seaboard Whalebelly , thanks again for the help).

There's a RC LHS nearby called "Debbies RC World" and I would think they could help if I decide to look into RC-ing an engine.

Do you have any idea what it cost you to do this (for 1 engine)?

I've also been looking at the Crest "Revolution Train Engineer", but have too many questions concerning putting it into an O-scale engine.  Main question (and I think you gave us the answer by demonstrating your setup) is, is a fancy system needed to run a train?

Hi bob, and all.

1st;  the easy one, the whale belly  was a  fun bash, and it indicated to me that  people can  help one-another  by mail.

2nd;  I spent  somewhere to convert to  R/C  around  $140 total [excluding a couple items I poofed up in smoke] , which includes the controller, which  has the ability to  run several at a time and  more than that singularly.  Not bad, in my  opinion compared to  other electronic systems.  One can also add sound in the normal way.  There is no sound in  my loco, no room, and I am not a soundie at heart anyway.

          NO CLEANING RAILS

Oh, one thing more, someone  asked what  does one do if there is a derailment?  SIMPLE, just let go of the speed control, and it  goes to  zero.  No "Sand Bags Needed"

Hope  my answer helped

Ed R

Thanks Ed.

I've spent the last hour Googling, trying to find all these components or components that are similar.

The TTX240 appears to have reverse and brake(?) and can "bind" (link) a number of individual receivers to 1 transmitter.  I take it all you'd need is 1 transmitter and as many receivers as you have locos, then "bind" them so they'll work, pretty cool stuff.

I was into RC planes back in the 70s (last century) but haven't kept up to speed on all the gadgetry out there now.

one place I looked at had 7.4v lipo battery packs that were 5000 mah, more power!

I think the "problem" is there's so much RC stuff available that folks who can't take the time to investigate it are afraid to give it a try.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around that if I have a 12vdc motor inside my engine, how will a 7.4v battery pack supply enough juice?  Need to do more research...

Bob and all,

I do not have a  technical answer how a 7.4v battery will adequately run a 12v motor, other than, something  7.4 is the minimum shelf voltage.  When charged it is  12v +  a point or 2.

Ed R

I do not have a  technical answer how a 7.4v battery will adequately run a 12v motor

that makes (at least) 2 of us.  I'll have to take it on blind faith.

I had to go get some paint thinner (got the wrong type) so I went to the local Hobbytown USA (they did have the right type, I just got that glazed over look and grabbed the wrong one).

While I was there I talked to one of the RC gurus for maybe 40 minutes.

One thing I found out...their prices are at least MSRP or higher.

They had the TTX240 that Ed has, it was around $60-70.

An electronic speed controller (ESC) could be gotten for $40

A 7.4 5000mah battery could be had for $50

Not sure what a charger cost.

They had less expensive items, so still not sure what the lowest cost would be (at Hobbytown).  They also had smaller capacity batteries (2200-2400 mah) that were cheaper which would provide less operating time, but might be adequate for 30-45 minutes.

I'm sure the items could be found for less, but you could fast approach what the Crest TE system costs if not careful.  If close, I would think the Crest system (with sound) would be nice.  Thing is, I'm STILL not sure if the Crest system will fit inside most O scale engines, although it certainly has a lot of bells and whistles if that's the route you want to take.

The 5000 mah battery is large and would take up most of the space in a GP9.  The 2.4 Ghz receivers are tiny, but some of the ESC units looked too big to fit inside a GP9, if a 5000 mah battery was used.

FWIW, the  5000 mah  battery will  power  5 amps for an hour, or 1 amp for 5 hours.  I am using  2???mah  batteries, which will give more than  2 hours  continuous  roundi-round for  2++ hours at the  one amp or less draw.  That battery is  a bit smaller than than a  credit card, and  about 1/8" thick.  It fits  on it's side under the  44 tonner hood.

Thanks again Ed!

At this point I'm still not sure if I want to go RC or DC with the GML unit.  The GML would be the cheaper way, but the appeal of RC is a big draw for me.

2 hours run time is plenty, after that I can see pulling the engine into an engine "facility" and giving it a charge while another train runs.

The GML set would be adequate for my 12x12 layout, I would need maybe 5 places to plugin the handheld unit as I make my way around.  Of course with RC, none of that wiring would be an issue.

Ed, are you pleased with the slow speed control you're getting?  Looking at your videos the slow speed looked fine.  I wonder if a joystick would be better than using a trigger-type transmitter?

I stumbled upon this website and a post about R/C:

http://on30guy.gerenm.net/2013...e-corrina-searsport/

Might be worth additional research. 

Matt,

Good find.

Talking about RC, I think we may be heading in the wrong direction.  That is, we should be looking in the robot side of electronics instead of RC cars/planes:

http://www.robotshop.com/rc-communications.html

Bob, and all,

I am pleased with the  speed control, especially comparing models and  real life.  Maybe about the  slowest a real  loco will go is when you first put in run.  If  the engineer wants to just crawl, he usually has to drag the brakes, etc.  I rode in a  SW12, a few years back, and as soon as he put it in run 1,  away we went,  zoomed  right out of the engine house.  Not creeping the way we usually back our cars out, but zoom. Obviously, it is  on guide rails, and no need to  worry about scraping the "fenders".

The trigger type of speed control is one handed and  one finger.  The trigger is  sprung to  neutral, push one way and  the loco  goes one way, pull it and the reverse happens.  Leaves the other hand for un-coupling.

Ed

Ed,

Does the 7.4 vdc battery provide power for both the 12vdc motor AND the 6vdc receiver AND the ESC (don't know what voltage is used)?  I want to say yes, my son had a RC truck and it seems like all he had in it was the one battery pack.

Bob, and all,

I have just one battery in the loco, which powers everything, head lights  and all.  The lights are bulbs, not  LEDs.  I have an on/off switch  right at the  battery  output, to prevent  any discharge when not in use. Sub miniature slide DPST.

Ed R

Ed,  after I posted I realized that 1 battery was all I'd need.

The RC guy I talked to showed me some LED light sets they stock for putting light on cars/trucks.  The ones he showed me were 5mm, should be right for a headlight.  Probably easy enough to make too.

For O scale, you might want to use 3mm instead as those are closer to the size of a diesel headlight.

Matt,

I was thinking steam the whole time, but you're right about the diesel.  Marker lights would be 3mm also.

Maybe some Evans Designs LEDs will work.