What to do instead of ballast?

I think mounting the track over glued-down ballast is a fine compromise. You can make it a bit nicer by cutting out bevelled edged homasote cookie-cutter style, then glue the ballast to the homasote and mount the track on top. That way you get some depth.

Curious......do you think would painting the corkboard, WS trackbed, homosote, etc diminish the sound dampening?

Rivesm posted:

Curious......do you think would painting the corkboard, WS trackbed, homosote, etc diminish the sound dampening?

I doubt it. Sound deadening basically comes from mass. Homasote works because it is fairly dense. Dry paint is dense, too. So if anything, it would probably increase the dampening slightly--probably not enough to notice.

All sound like good ideas to me. I may use one of these suggestions. I am not ready for ballast, but I have struggled with the thought of using it myself. Looks good, but a pain if you ever want to rework something or re-do your layout. Maybe ballast is just a little too permanent for me?

Personally, I don't think the sound dampening would be diminished any at all using these alternate methods.

I ballasted my first 5 x 9 layout track and it did look pretty nice but when I decided to take up the track it was a tough job. When I built my current layout, I decided not to ballast for the same reasons stated here. I think the alternatives suggested are good ideas.  If I was starting over, I would probably try the textured paint and sprinkle on a little additional ballast and hit it with dilluted glue. I appreciate the artistry of layouts with ballasted track, but with my continuing experiments in model railroading, too much work to undo.  Great suggestions.

Thanks for the suggestions thus far!  I like the idea of ballasting the roadbed; I just hate the cork stuff so will look at some of the rubber products.

re: sound deadening - I was surprised with my old layout.  I run 1/2" blue foam on top of plywood. With just the track on the foam, quiet as a mouse. Once ballasted (no nails or screws used), it was about as loud as running on bare plywood!

I'm going to run some test cases first to see how "bumpy" ballast-on-paint will be for switch operation, etc. I managed to recover about 95% of the Brennan's ballast I used on the old layout, so it's pretty much a consistent size.

Thanks again;

Carl,

Thanks for starting this thread.  Heading down the same path of doing some 'trials'.  I am new to all this and have searched this and other forums for ideas.  Problem is there are so many opinions . One of my trials will be a rubber product with the 'stone effect' paint (what a great idea) and perhaps with some stone added.  When I did my paving I mixed 'fine black' sand with flat black paint and it did well, by the way.  I read on another thread where someone used caulk to secure the trackbed to plywood and he was please as I think it was much easier to clean up if changes were to be made.....

Enjoy reading all the ideas and thoughts.

Tucker

I've been using 3/8" thick anti-fatigue rubber mat from Lowes, I bought mine on a roll by the foot:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Apach...-By-The-Foot/3612682

I cut the mat into strips a bit wider than the track ties, then beveled the edges on my bandsaw.  Here's a couple of lousy photos:

It's cuts easily and can be curved.  Without ballast it's real quite, but once ballast is put down the noise increases.  If I ever do my layout over again I'll use the rubber matting and paint it with some of that textured paint instead of using ballast.

What would be even better is if the ties could be embedded into the rubber, but that would take machinery I don't have.

Here's a short video I made of one of my battery powered engines (no sound board inside the engine in this video).  You can hear what kind of sound it makes going around the layout on this rubber matting with ballast on the outside of the track.  I don't think I have a video of it w/o any ballast:

As you can see in the video, I removed the middle rail now that my engines are battery powered.

Oh, I used Fusion Fiber for my ground cover:

http://www.scenerymadeeasy.com/

Along with Woodland Scenics ground foam and ballast.

I use Gargraves track and recently on another thread here discovered Ross Roadbed.  It is available for Atlas track too.  I plan to try it on my next build covering it with the Rust-oleum Stone texture paint.

http://www.rossswitches.com/newstuff/newstuff.html

Tony

You'll probably all think I'm crazy and ready for Arkham Asylum, but here goes:

I too am about to start on a new layout, using Atlas O, and don't really want to ballast because, to the OP's point, I've run into a few issues with the turnouts and want the option for easy disassembly.  But I like the look of ballast. So I had some free time and experimented.  I sprayed a 40" length and a 081 section with WD40, placed it on parchment paper and then ballasted right up to the tops of the ties - using 70:30 Elmer's-to-water (I will use a weaker, 50:50 mix, on the layout). Allowed it to dry and then slipped the track out - proving it is solidly down, especially with track screws, but at the same time entirely easily dismantle-able. So, I'm toying with the idea of using this method on the new layout.  With a few minor considerations, I think it will allow me to move sections around ballasted and intact, or pop any section out of the ballast itself.  Ironically, the process adds little extra time to the effort, yet could save me a huge headache later.  

Ok, I'm ready for the straight jacket ...

Peter

PJB posted:

You'll probably all think I'm crazy ...

Peter

Not at all.  

In fact, I would ditch the WD40...try your experiment without it...and see if you're satisfied.

Cuz, that's what I plan to do.  I have Gargraves/Ross over cork.  Knowing that, for me, ballasting would be the LAST thing I do in the scenery sequence, I painted the cork a medium gray to give it some ballast-like color for the interim....and it looks decent, I must say.

I've always been a proponent of using gravity to the fullest extent of it's free and natural advantage.  If the track itself is fastened down...which mine is using #4 x 1" flathead blackened screws...then why would loose ballast be inclined to wander all over the place??  It doesn't.  And if some trackside project disturbs the loose ballast, it's quite easy to take a soft brush and quickly coax it back into  acceptability.  

Turnout areas?  I'd avoid putting any ballast at all in the points area.   Some compromises are worth avoiding future headaches......IMHO.

But the biggest advantage of all to loose ballast is, as the OP has opined, keeping the original track clean for possible re-use in a layout modification....or new layout altogether!.  AND.....sucking up the loose ballast in vacuum with a new, clean filter allows the ballast to be re-used also!!    And that stuff and bonding agents aren't cheap in money or time/aggravation.......again, IMHO.

But, hey,......TEHO.  Paradigms prevail.  

For what it's worth, always.

.....and that's the 'gravity' of the situation, as I see it.

KD

Peter / PIB;  Sounds like a good solution for you.  In my OP, I probably wasn't clear enough. I had no problem lifting the track/ballast away from the foam underlayment, but it was down quite effectively. The main issue was having to take a mini-screwdriver and probe each space between the ties from above and below to get the ballast out. Not horrible, but just a pain hunched over the layout. I am just not going to do it again, and, as another poster noted, I don't want to disturb anything if I have to replace an uncoupler section or switch. 6 out of 7 switches worked just fine (took care around the points and left a few slots un-ballasted, but that one that would hang-up was one that I liked to use all the time.

Bob D:  I *really* like the idea of using the anti-fatigue mat, but I *know* I can't cut a straight line, at an angle, in something squishy.  I've got about 90' of track to cushion/ballast.  Might experiment, though....

I'll start a war by writing this but here it is:  Do NOT NOT NOT glue down your ballast!  I learned that the hard way.  I place my track on an insulation board that costs 1/3 of a sheet of homasote.  It works perfectly.  In fact, it is better than homasote because it is black in color.  A perfect color for a base!  I use Midwest cork redbed.  Then I use: cat litter, silica sand, or some very, very inexpensive product to ballast (I have a basement layout.  I have a lot to ballast).    Then for the topping, I use Brennan's Better Ballast.  I'd use this stuff exclusively, but I would need a second mortgage to do it.  It is awesome stuff.

You may now start complaining and shouting me down about not gluing down my ballast and everything that's wrong with doing that.

But, I will tell you this: when I discover I want to move the track, remove the track, realign the track, add or take away a turnout, I break out the old trust vacuum, turn it on, suck up the ballast in seconds, do what I need to do, and re-ballast.

I remember the days of using a hammer and screwdriver or chisel trying to peel off glued down ballast and ties and destroying perfectly good track.

Say whatever you want!  I've done this for three or four years and ran the trains multiple trains and never, ever ever had the first issue.

My days of gluing ballast and any other "earth" "snow" etc. are over!  That is the same reason I use screws instead of nails. 

Carl Orton posted:

Bob D:  I *really* like the idea of using the anti-fatigue mat, but I *know* I can't cut a straight line, at an angle, in something squishy.  I've got about 90' of track to cushion/ballast.  Might experiment, though....

The anti-fatigue mat got me thinking, a little more FYI. Here's a link to some pictures of 'Rossbed' from forum member 'Putnam Division'. He posted pics of it both as it comes and also after he painted it. I think there are more details in the thread. Rossbed Pictures  He is also using Atlas track and I believe he stated the paint he used. I believe this has been discussed in some other threads too, but this one came up first.

One more roadbed is Flexxbed which is some type of vinyl, but similar to the fatigue mat material only no cutting, it's pre-formed to the shape of roadbed. Also available in flat sheets. I don't know if it can be painted? The company was very helpful when I have called them and could answer any questions you might have. The even helped me with some ordering tips to save me a few bucks.

I was torn between these two products for sometime, but finally decided on Flexxbed, but I still like the Rossbed.

I think I found that the rubber matting was actually cheaper by the foot than the cork roadbed.  An 8' piece of 30" matting produces a lot of strips!

Carl, in your original post you mentioned painting the road bed and then adding ballast under the track.  The paint alone will not hold the ballast in place any better than gravity as proposed by KD and John C.  You could paint the road bed with the stone spray paints if you want texture but I don't know if it cost effective vs loose ballast.  Another alternative could be roofing material, either shingles or rolled roofing.  You could cut strips for roadbed and it would have granular texture.

In another thread I said that I use Midwest Cork with Gar Graves. I go to Home depot and match up the color of ballast and  get a quart of paint. I paint the cork and a bit of the sides. After it dries I apply Brummy's rubber ballast to the side and glue it down. It is not 100% perfect but I am happy with the results. I do it the same way around the switches. Couple of pics.........Paul

Some brands of cat litter, hamster sand, or my favorite: BLACK silica sand!  I had an issue finding it.  I finally found a store in downtown Indianapolis that sold me a fifty pound bag for ten bucks!  That black silica sand is so fine!  It is great for simulating coal or ballast!  It makes the blackened "center" rail virtually disappear.  With some good weathering technique and black silica sand, you will have a two-rail appearing track with all the great advantages of a third rail!     

paul 2 posted:

In another thread I said that I use Midwest Cork with Gar Graves. I go to Home depot and match up the color of ballast and  get a quart of paint. I paint the cork and a bit of the sides. After it dries I apply Brummy's rubber ballast to the side and glue it down. It is not 100% perfect but I am happy with the results. I do it the same way around the switches. Couple of pics.........Paul

That looks pretty good to me. I am prototypically challenged...the track exposed looks good to me and you also still have ballast. Nice. I think what you have done is a pretty good compromise. I also imagine you could do the same with other ballast in different colors.

I with John C on the don't glue down the ballast. If you won't have constant use by children or it's not a portable layout, then why glue it.

The small hand held vacs will suck it up for reuse for track changes or maintenance.

The gravity method works fine.  I've helped build several big seasonal layouts where we used cat litter or chicken grit as ballast.  Poured over track and shaped with a brush, it looks good and when the layout is taken up after the holidays, a shop vac takes care of cleanup.

John

I used rubber ballast from Scenic Express, not glued down. I experimented with ballast glued down, and as another poster mentioned, the noise level increased drastically. If the layout ever comes down, I can shop-vac the ballast up and reuse it on the next one. 

Roofing shingles.  Plentiful, cheap (32$ a bundle locally), easily transferable.  What's not to like?  NOT for those concerned with realism or scale fidelity.  Which I am not.

I  use aquarium gravel and never glue it down. 

I use roll roofing. See if you can find a damaged roll at your local lumber yard or Home Depot. They will sell it cheap. When you cut it with a utility or roofing knife cut it from the back side of the roofing. Make a pattern to cut curves. Cut strips the size of your ties and fill in the spaces on your Lionel track. Two strips for O Guage or a single strip for O27.

OK, folks, here's what I decided to do (since I'm the original poster):

I'm going to take some thick round power cord (like 12ga outside orange extension cord) and set that alongside the ties of my Atlas track. I'm then going to trace along that cord so that I have a consistent smooth "shoulder" beyond the track.  I've already painted all of the foam table top a dirt brown, so I'll mask-off the track areas and paint the "roadbed" ballast gray.

Haven't decided whether to paint it thick and sprinkle some ballast in the paint (some have said it won't stick, and I haven't experimented yet), OR just leave it ballast gray.  If ballast doesn't stick to the paint, I can use white glue/water mixture to glue it in place if I want to go that route, or as others have suggested, put the track back down and just brush some loose ballast along the rail tops and leave it unglued.

I'm leaning toward gluing-down a thin layer of ballast. It's not a portable layout, but with train motion, I know *some* granules will move around a bit, and I don't want to be taking a brush to the barely reachable areas to sweep it back into position.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I really like the idea of using homasote or foam mat or Rossbed to give some elevation, but that just seems like more work than I want to do.  Once I start with the plan above, I can always change it.

Atlas makes a roadbed for their track. It's similar to the Ross roadbed but is ballasted. The track just inserts right into it.

http://www.atlaso.com/oroadbed.htm

Carl, Sounds like a good decision.  There are always more than one good way to do something.  I must say, John C's concept is very appealing.  I too have struggled with removing track and other scenic items that were glued down.  Of course, in time I wouldn't want to use a small vacuum to clean up dust, but I have never kept things the same long enough to see where years of dust had an effect.  

Update:  I should have just stuck to my original thoughts.....  I purchased some of the Rustoleum "stone" paint in the gray fleck to look like granite / ballast. I masked-off the roadbed area and sprayed. Man, that stuff flies everywhere!!

It may have been the fact that I was spraying onto a painted surface, but the paint just didn't come out like it looked on the can. Yes, I shook it longer than the can directions stated. Perhaps because I was holding the can sideways and the instructions said to only use it on vertical surfaces.  Came out nice and thick, but the overspray extended for about 8" in all directions.

I sprinkled some ballast into an area of the still-wet paint because I wasn't thrilled with it thus far and let it all dry overnight. The ballast stuck well enough to the paint, but was clumpy due to my application haste. The paint-only surfaces still didn't look good enough. When I went to use my hand to smooth out the clumps, more of the ballast came off than I wanted, leaving bare patches of grayish-brown surface.

So, I still had some gray paint on hand that I used to make streets, so I painted a test section and sprinkled ballast into that. Made sure the paint was a nice wet coat.  Wow - what a difference. This AM, the excess ballast came right off with a gentle sweep of the hand. Once vacuumed-up, just about one layer of stone remained (i.e., relatively smooth), and it looks great (IMHO).  Now to scrape off the stone paint/ballast and use good ol' Behr's that I already had.

Tony_V posted:

I use Gargraves track and recently on another thread here discovered Ross Roadbed.  It is available for Atlas track too.  I plan to try it on my next build covering it with the Rust-oleum Stone texture paint.

http://www.rossswitches.com/newstuff/newstuff.html

Tony

Not to dismiss what others have posted.... But if you're planning to use Atlas-O (or Ross) track, this is THE SOLUTION bar none.  If you want to add real ballast down the road, you could.  But you may very well be more than happy with the texture-painted Rossbed product.

David

Thanks for bringing up the Rossbed, David!  I am even thinking using the Rossbed texture painted under switches would eliminate the problem of getting a granular of ballast in the switch points or linkage.  For some reason I dislike ballasting.  ;-)

I model w/o ballast but i continue to monitor the ballast threads. Your results look pretty good to me Carl. I would be happy with that.  The color of your ballast is excellent. BTW, before you lay down track, you might want to consider painting the track.  I use Atlas track and years after I had laid my track on cork I finally got around to trying to paint the rails sides to hide the shine. It looked only OK. The plastic shine on the ties and the color bothered me. So, when I started my layout redo I got rustoleum earth brown camo spray paint and sprayed the track ties and cork in place.  It made a world of difference on my layout.  It would have been my preference to spray the track off the layout as cleaning the tops would be much easier. Just a thought.  Color preference is a personal choice, no right or wrong. I like your results. 

Boy this is older...  I commented way above and I'm sticking to it!  No more gluing ballast of any kind!  Done.  Been there done that have the T-shirt.  When I want to change or repair something, I simply vacuum up the ballast, unscrew the track, do what needs to be done, screw the track into place, done!  No more destroying expensive track.  Cork for sound purposes...then black silicia sand for cinders, Breenans Better Ballast on top of cat litter or some other cheap "rock" looking substance to minimize expense.

banjoflyer posted:

I have seen videos where the operator cut strips of berber carpet the width of normal cork/ballast. It gave a credible illusion of ballast. Or better yet pre-spray cork roadbed with those "stone effect" spray paints and then install the track on that.

Mark

I used this to paint Midwest Cork Roadbed. It worked ok. I also use Fastrack; no extra ballast needed. These are good options if you are not striving for scenic realism. Close may be good enough.

I just put my Atlas track right on the Midwest cork.  Looks good enough for me.  Simple too.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Tony_V posted:

I use Gargraves track and recently on another thread here discovered Ross Roadbed.  It is available for Atlas track too.  I plan to try it on my next build covering it with the Rust-oleum Stone texture paint.

http://www.rossswitches.com/newstuff/newstuff.html

Tony

Not to dismiss what others have posted.... But if you're planning to use Atlas-O (or Ross) track, this is THE SOLUTION bar none.  If you want to add real ballast down the road, you could.  But you may very well be more than happy with the texture-painted Rossbed product.

David

I seem to remember hearing that it doesn't work correctly with Gargraves track. This may be not true or not true now as maybe some changes

Just saw a product I had never before heard of - NovaCork, which is a layer of cork bonded to a sheet of Homasote.  Has anyone tried it on a layout?

David

rtraincollector posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Tony_V posted:

I use Gargraves track and recently on another thread here discovered Ross Roadbed.  It is available for Atlas track too.  I plan to try it on my next build covering it with the Rust-oleum Stone texture paint.

http://www.rossswitches.com/newstuff/newstuff.html

Tony

Not to dismiss what others have posted.... But if you're planning to use Atlas-O (or Ross) track, this is THE SOLUTION bar none.  If you want to add real ballast down the road, you could.  But you may very well be more than happy with the texture-painted Rossbed product.

David

I seem to remember hearing that it doesn't work correctly with Gargraves track. This may be not true or not true now as maybe some changes

Rossbed is available for Atlas and Ross. It is not offered for GarGraves track.